[Patrick Kiser]

For some of you, I've already shared this with you and I'll request you refrain from spilling the beans on the course's name.  Instead, your general thoughts and impressions of these holes would be great feedback.

For those with whom I have not shared this with yet, but can tell the course ... I'd request the same and provide your thoughts and impressions.

Everyone else ... what do you think first impression wise from these photos alone?

What I can say is rather simple and it also provides a hint: how in the world has so little been discussed about it on GCA?  It's beyond me   .

More later...

[Matthew Rose]

Looks to be in Australia somewhere.

[Greg Chambers]

looks like Southern California to me

[Mark Saltzman]

Patrick,

Ok, you've got my interest. 

Looks like great terrain for a golf course.  Love the rolls in the fairway.

I'm not sold on the greenside bunkering -- looks a bit predictable, but it's really hard to tell with the limited number of pictures.

Only thing I see I don't like is the fairway bunker on the third to last picture -- it has to go!

[Patrick Kiser]

Southern California is correct.



Mark,

The greenside bunkers are consistent in look and feel for the most part.  I would say they can be predictable and/or repetitive at times in placement or positioning, but not always.  However, I would say they did their job effectively.

I would agree with your comment about the fairway bunker on the third to last picture.  Can you say why for you?  It jumped out for me as well.  As you might guess, it is NOT an original bunker.  Good catch.

[Mark Saltzman]

I would agree with your comment about the fairway bunker on the third to last picture.  Can you say why for you?  It jumped out for me as well.  As you might guess, it is NOT an original bunker.  Good catch.

Hole moves right so aggressive line is up the right and bail-out is left.  Shots that bail left have to deal with carrying/flirting with that really scary looking greenside bunker... that's the penalty for missing the tee shot left, the fairway bunker is unnecessary.   

[Patrick Kiser]

Looks to be in Australia somewhere.

Matthew,

I could easily see how one might think that.  The combination of terrain and bunkers would have had me guess that as well.  Nice try.

[Patrick Kiser]

I would agree with your comment about the fairway bunker on the third to last picture.  Can you say why for you?  It jumped out for me as well.  As you might guess, it is NOT an original bunker.  Good catch.

Hole moves right so aggressive line is up the right and bail-out is left.  Shots that bail left have to deal with carrying/flirting with that really scary looking greenside bunker... that's the penalty for missing the tee shot left, the fairway bunker is unnecessary.   

Agreed.  There's more on my mind as well, but it has more to do with what might have been in place previously.  It's tough to say, but I think underneath that row of trees to the right was a big part of the hole's strategy.  It's not clear if the green's orientation might have changed, but work was done over time.

[Matthew Rose]

Looks to be in Australia somewhere.

Matthew,

I could easily see how one might think that.  The combination of terrain and bunkers would have had me guess that as well.  Nice try.

Actually, it was the eucalyptus trees that really pointed me that way. But yeah, now that I think about it, California has them too, although I didn't think they could be widespread like that there.

Come to think of it, when I drove by LACC recently, I thought it bore a passing resemblance to a Commonwealth or Metropolitan.

[Alex Miller]

Patrick,

Haven't played here, but just confirmed my guess via google earth. I had no idea there was that much movement on the property.

SoCal courses, especially those with dormant grasses tend to play better in the winter, and combined with the faces of these bunkers this course looks superb.

[Sean_A]

It must be the lover of dry golf in me because the first thing I thought in the first two pix is the shaping around the greens looks to be creating a water trap - so I expect these are super obvious drainage areas and would probably play wet for extended periods of time unless the club has cash to mop up a rainy day mess.  Same for #4.  I wonder if water is an issue in general because the greens pictured are all elevated even if some look not to be.  Well, thats my first impression.

Ciao

[Pete_Pittock]

Patrick,
I like the appear and the maintenance meld. Reminds me of Santa Anita. Maybe that course's revision has the same pedigree.
Major drainage right of the 1st picture? Can you tell me about the evergreen to the right of the green in the 1sgt picture. Is it in a bunker or just short of it?

[Alex Miller]

It must be the lover of dry golf in me because the first thing I thought in the first two pix is the shaping around the greens looks to be creating a water trap - so I expect these are super obvious drainage areas and would probably play wet for extended periods of time unless the club has cash to mop up a rainy day mess.  Same for #4.  I wonder if water is an issue in general because the greens pictured are all elevated even if some look not to be.  Well, thats my first impression.

Ciao

SoCal doesn't get much rain, but this course would get less than most I imagine.

[Ronald Montesano]

We don't have beautiful bunker edges like these in western New York, nor do I suspect that we have any course that moves like this one. I think I could play those few holes for many a year and gain in enthusiasm for this wonderful endeavor. I hope that the remaining holes are similar in challenge.

[Brett_Morrissy]

Gee Pat,
you didn't give us long to guess before giving away clues.

my first thought was a Robert Trent Jones Jnr course in Western Australia, Meadow Springs, that bunkering is reminiscent of his style, certainly on the courses here in Oz that he did at NGC, Cape Shanck, Joondalup and Meadow Springs. and the movement in the ground could be consistent with that.

Then I thought it reminded me of Riviera CC, certainly the eucalypts, and the ground movement (maybe less at Riv) reminded me of Pasatiempo in the first couple of pics. So definetly California. (i note that is correct)

So, my guess is a course in LA, becuase of the trees, and the look of the course, why would you post this course, perhaps it is the new reno at LACC, although I would not have thought Capt Thomas' bunkering looked like that... there is another course Santa something - maybe you posted it close to Christmas....

that is the best i got - LACC - havent seen it, so no idea if it looks completely different to those picks, but certainly my guess is around LA area.

Did you enjoy playing it?

[Jim Eder]

I played this course a few weeks ago and fell in love with it (no wonder a couple of GREATS spent a lot of time honing their games on this course). The movement of the land is wonderful, the greens have a lot of movement and are rather large, the bunkers are deep, and there is a lot of strategy needed to score (oh, and one needs to be able to putt and place the apporach on the right side of the hole as the greens have speed). The course was in great shape, the people are super nice, and the weather is fantastic. When out on the course one feels like they are out there alone with their group. THIS ONE RINGS A BELL FOR ME.

[Patrick Kiser]

Sean,

I'm actually not too sure about any drainage issues and would agree with Alex about this area getting less rain than most in the SoCal area.


Pete,

I thought a little about Santa Anita as well, except there's less large ridges to clear here to gain the advantage.  The evergreen is just there without any bunker.  It needs to go in m opinion and does not fit in at all.  Tree management is clearly needed throughout, in my opinion ... but the course shines through to save the day.


Brett,

Sorry for giving it away a little.  Just like you and Matthew, I could see how one would think Australia.  The combination of terrain, trees, bunkers, and shade of color would have done it for me.  As to why post on this, I just think it's a rather good course and it has had very little to any coverage on GCA thus far.  Did I enjoy playing it?  See Jim Eder's response...  We have winner here!!!

I'll post later and will keep the suspense going a little...

[John Mayhugh]

PK,
I'm interested in discussion of the course and from the pics you've shown it's worthy of discussion.  I'm not much for mystery threads, though, so I'll hold off until the course is revealed.  I do like all of the ground movement.

Hopefully you'll do a complete tour at some point?

[Carl Nichols]

If this is the course I'm thinking of -- and Jim's post suggests it is -- I believe I played it several times in the mid-90's, but don't remember it as fondly as it appears in these pictures.  I recall it being more watered than in these pictures, along with flatter fairways and less dramatic greenside bunkers.  Have they done work on the bunkers since the mid-1990's?  And Patrick, have you picked the most undulating fairways to highlight? 

[Anthony Fowler]

I have played nearly 100 rounds on this course, so I know it very well.  I have tried to discuss it here on several occasions, but I the response has been pretty quiet.  Everyone is correct to praise the rolls in the fairway.  What you may not see in the photos is the exciting movement in the greens as well.  These are some of the best greens I have ever played and certainly the best conditioned.  I would compare them in character to Prairie Dunes, Crystal Downs, and Royal Melbourne.  They're probably not quite as dramatic (close though) but they run must faster day-to-day so they are equally diabolical to putt on.

As far as the fairway bunker in the 3rd to last photo (it's the 17th hole by the way), it does actually have some strategic merit.  The green slopes dramatically from back to front and from right to left.  Because the green is so dramatic, I would want to hit my approach from as far left as possible so I can hit a low runner into the slope of the green.  In fact, if the pin is short-right, this is the only way that you can get your approach close to the hole.  For this reason, I actually try to hit a hybrid or three wood off the tee just short of that left-fairway bunker.  If the bunker wasn't there, it's exactly where you would want to hit your tee shot.

[Jim Eder]

Anthony,

I so agree with you on the movement of the greens. The greens reminded me of Augusta actually. I just loved the movement and the possibilities. They were fast and rolled so smoothly. No wonder why a Member has Mastered the Best!! If one doesn't place the approach in the right spot forget about birdie and hope to save par and avoid the 3 putt.

I too am surprised this course hasn't gotten more analysis.  I sure am glad that my eyes have been opened now.  I can't wait to play it again and again..........................

[Sean_A]

Sean,

I'm actually not too sure about any drainage issues and would agree with Alex about this area getting less rain than most in the SoCal area.

Pat

I am not sure either, thats why i questioned the shaping.  Its quite odd visually and suggests easy drainage.  Does this place get infrequent torrential downpours?

Ciao

[Anthony Fowler]

To address some of the drainage questions, the course receives very little rain.  However, Sean is correct that these collection areas can get soggy when it does receive a heavy rain.  It's not really an issue for the fourth picture (6th hole) where the collection area is the middle of a 180 yard par 3.  However, it is an issue for the left side of the 2nd hole (first picture) where the collection area is green-side on a reachable par 5.

I should also mention that the 18th (last 2 pictures) is a great finisher.  You have to hit a long approach from an awkward lie to a very well protected green.  I have birdied every other hole on the course numerous times, but never the 18th.  I think I've only had a reasonable putt for birdie once or twice.  It's a great nail-biter at the end of the round.

[Patrick Kiser]

Carl,

You ask "have you picked the most undulating fairways to highlight?".  I think the answer is probably yes.  Everything ran relatively fast and firm but the undulations were fantastic.


Anthony,

I suspect the original strategy to the 17th lies under those trees to the right.  It's not clear if the green's orientation was changed eventually or not, but I'm trying to find out by looking at old aerials.  For instance, the one hole that troubled me (besides the 8th approach) was the 15th.  The fairway bunker placement to the right makes no sense to me, until you consider the "modern" game and the mentality of avoiding (instead of daring) a hazard and gaining an advantage or being punished less.  So the challenge and strategy is different and is more about avoiding.  Less sporting if you ask me with less risk taking.  In my opinion, the same applies to this 17th.  It's about avoiding the bunker to the left fairway.  Not about daring or being tempted to dare...

I would agree with the quality of the greens.  They are superior.  They look brand new and ... aren't.  Kudos to the super and the team managing the course.  They're doing a fine job here.  It's simple, I have not putted such nice poa, since FI.  I'll go on record and state they are better than Pebble.  Yes, better...  But not all is perfect for me.  While the greens play great and are of fantastic quality, they don't always seem to blend seamlessly into the surrounding topography.  Not always, but often enough several greens feel propped up.  I have a feeling this is a direct result of adjusting the course for the modern aerial game.  But that's just a hunch on my part and I have no proof of this.


All,

Enough of the mystery?  Should I spill the beans or does someone else wish to do this?

A hint:  opened in 1921 and was constructed by Billy Bell (Sr.).  There's a strong possibility the original design and plans were from ... Willie Watson.  That or Billy produced the design and plans + built the course, but credit was given to Watson in order to gain respect/attention.  At the time, Billy was striking out on his own.  It does not appear that Willie Watson did the construction.

[Terry Lavin]

I'll go with LACC South course. 

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