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Ulrich Mayring

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North Berwick and Ben Sayers
« on: January 02, 2012, 07:22:40 PM »
Hi folks,

on North Berwick's web site I found the following passage, referring to the last major changes made to the West Links:

Quote
Alterations to this layout, giving the course its present shape, were carried out under the supervision of Ben Sayers in 1932.

However, since Ben Sayers died in 1924, this appeared unlikely to me. So I wrote to the club and they agreed that there might be an error that warrants further research. Perhaps any of the knowledgeable folks here can help with this?

Ulrich
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Duncan Cheslett

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Re: North Berwick and Ben Sayers
« Reply #1 on: January 03, 2012, 02:21:26 AM »
Just a stab in the dark Ulrich, but it could well be his son, Ben jr, to whom the NB website refers.

http://www.bensayers.co.uk/?page_id=62


As a relative newcomer and ignoramus to golf, I was interested to discover that 'Ben Sayers' is actually an old and long-established brand. I conected the name solely with cheap Chinese generic third division stuff.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2012, 02:24:31 AM by Duncan Cheslett »
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Ulrich Mayring

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Re: North Berwick and Ben Sayers
« Reply #2 on: January 03, 2012, 03:59:40 AM »
Good find, but this article begs a few questions:

Quote
In 1913 Ben Sayers Jnr joined the business. Young Ben was a very good golfer and played in many matches with his father. He played for Scotland and on one famous occasion he played with his father in an international match against England. By 1934 the demand for the Ben Sayers brand was growing and they moved the business to a new factory in North Berwick.

They? Hardly, Ben sr. died in 1924.

Quote
By the mid 1970's, production had risen from a few hundred clubs per week to 5,000 per week. Ben played his last open at 67 years old and in the following year, his final round of golf.

Who, Ben jr.? How could he play the Open at age 67? Was he a former winner? I find no record of that!

Ulrich
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Colin Macqueen

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Re: North Berwick and Ben Sayers
« Reply #3 on: January 03, 2012, 06:39:35 AM »
Och Ulrich,

You're starting to sound like a naysayer!

happy New Year, Colin.
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Tom MacWood

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Re: North Berwick and Ben Sayers
« Reply #4 on: January 03, 2012, 07:01:20 AM »
Ulrich
There was a report in Golf Monthly from 1922 that a redesign was underway at North Berwick that involved reclamation of some land from the sea. I'm not sure which course, and no mention of an architect.
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Melvyn Morrow

Re: North Berwick and Ben Sayers
« Reply #5 on: January 03, 2012, 08:28:25 AM »
Ulrich

Some newspaper reports from 1922/3 Re North Berwick Links

North Berwick Links 22 July 1922










North Berwick Proposed New Course  23rd October 1923





New East Lothian Course 17th December 1923



Melvyn

« Last Edit: January 03, 2012, 08:46:15 AM by Melvyn Hunter Morrow »
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Niall C

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Re: North Berwick and Ben Sayers
« Reply #6 on: January 03, 2012, 08:36:35 AM »
Tom

The redesign at North Berwick would likely be referring to the Burgh course, sometimes known as the east course and what is now known as the Glen. Like an awful lot of courses it started as a nine holer which Ben Sayers laid out in 1906 (?) and was eventually extended to 18 holes sometime just before or after the war (I think from memory).

The Council decided to tart up the course with the intent of making it more attractive to visitors and approached Robert Maxwell for advice. Maxwell was a member of HCEG and the Tantallon club (I think), had won the Amateur championship on a couple of occasions and had got Colt involved and indeed claimed to have assisted in redesigning Murfield at around about that time. Maxwell suggested Colt, and Colt provided a fee proposal. In good old Scottish Council fashion, the Council then decided that they wanted a competitive quote and MacKenzie was asked to put forward a proposal which he did.

MacKenzie won the commission based on his price and he duly provided a design. Unfortunately I only have the hole yardages and neither do I have a plan of the course before (or indeed immediately after) so it is difficult to know whether they followed his design but they did redo the course. I assume therefore GI was referring to this work although equally there might have been work ongoing at the West course then.

Niall
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Niall C

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Re: North Berwick and Ben Sayers
« Reply #7 on: January 03, 2012, 08:40:03 AM »
Melvyn

Thanks for posting those articles. The "course" they refer to is the Yellowcraigs project that never got built. Braid did a routing for it which sits in the National Archives of Scotland along with two other unattributed routings that my have been done by him or more likely by others.

Unfortunately the project never went ahead because of a lack of a water supply, with the supply of water to NB being a big issue back then.

Niall
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Bill_McBride

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Re: North Berwick and Ben Sayers
« Reply #8 on: January 03, 2012, 08:50:00 AM »
Thanks for those articles, Melvyn.   Very interesting how valuable the west links was to the town of North Berwick. 

I was really intrigued by the note that 600 golfers played the course one day.   That must have been on summer solstice!
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BCrosby

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Re: North Berwick and Ben Sayers
« Reply #9 on: January 03, 2012, 08:53:12 AM »
"MacKenzie won the commission based on his price and he duly provided a design. Unfortunately I only have the hole yardages and neither do I have a plan of the course before (or indeed immediately after) so it is difficult to know whether they followed his design but they did redo the course."

MacKenzie beat out Colt and might have had a hand at NB? I assume he had already broken up with Colt at the time? Fascinating.

Bob
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Niall C

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Re: North Berwick and Ben Sayers
« Reply #10 on: January 03, 2012, 09:04:41 AM »
Bob

Neil Crafter is the man to advise but I believe that even when in partnership it was known for the two of them to compete for commissions. Could be wrong but I believe that to be the case.

Niall
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Melvyn Morrow

Re: North Berwick and Ben Sayers
« Reply #11 on: January 03, 2012, 11:10:57 AM »

A few more articles re the newer East Course and mods to the existing West.

North Berwick Corporation Course  27.02.1906


North Berwick New Golf links (Rhodes)  4.04.1906



North Berwick East Golf Links  31.10.1906


Alterations to North Berwick West Links  13.11.1906


Melvyn
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Ulrich Mayring

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Re: North Berwick and Ben Sayers
« Reply #12 on: January 03, 2012, 11:43:57 AM »
Perhaps the 1932 changes were indeed carried out under the supervision of Ben Sayers jr. Although I just found this:

Quote
The eldest, Ben Sayers Jnr. worked in Berlin and at Royal Wimbledon before returning to North Berwick in 1913 to join his father in the business.

That doesn't match with him being 67 in the "mid 1970s".

Ulrich
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Melvyn Morrow

Re: North Berwick and Ben Sayers
« Reply #13 on: January 03, 2012, 06:59:23 PM »

More alterations and improvements at N Berwick over the Winter months of 1932/33, although not mentioned who was responsible



Melvyn

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Bill_McBride

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Re: North Berwick and Ben Sayers
« Reply #14 on: January 03, 2012, 07:19:33 PM »
Quote from: Melvyn Hunter Morrow on January 03, 2012, 06:59:23 PM

More alterations and improvements at N Berwick over the Winter months of 1932/33, although not mentioned who was responsible



Melvyn



That sounds like the current layout.  Has the "quarry" become the burn before #7?
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Tom MacWood

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Re: North Berwick and Ben Sayers
« Reply #15 on: January 04, 2012, 06:44:31 AM »
I believe the changes in 1932 were carried out by Guy Campbell and CK Hutchison.
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Sean_A

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Re: North Berwick and Ben Sayers
« Reply #16 on: January 04, 2012, 07:31:28 AM »
Ace

No, the quarry stares at you directly off the 6th tee.  I spose its no longer very dramatic looking and most would now call it a hollow - tee hee.

Ciao
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Bill_McBride

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Re: North Berwick and Ben Sayers
« Reply #17 on: January 04, 2012, 08:45:56 AM »
Quote from: Sean Arble on January 04, 2012, 07:31:28 AM
Ace

No, the quarry stares at you directly off the 6th tee.  I spose its no longer very dramatic looking and most would now call it a hollow - tee hee.

Ciao

Ah yes.  When I think of a quarry I think of Painswick!   ;D
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Simon Holt

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Re: North Berwick and Ben Sayers
« Reply #18 on: January 04, 2012, 08:59:47 AM »
The 6th and 12th used to share what is now the 6th green.  The Pit (13) used to tee off from next to that green which made it a very short hole compared to the modern iteration.

The 5th green used to be in the corner of what is now the 5th hole, down by Engine Cottage (little ginger bread house in Carl Kemp woods).  6 used to tee off from there and be a two shotter over the Quarry to what is now solely the 6th green.

The 11th green used to be what is now the practise putting area out between the 8th and 11th fairway.  No doubt we will have to move back to that green one day due to erosion next to the current 11th green.

1 and 17 also used to be a shared green.  With the 1st hole in the upper section and the 17th in the lower portion!!!!  That must have been crazy!

I never want to comment unless I know for sure...well, as close as I can be to sure.....so as to Ulrich's OP I do not know.  I read the Bass Rock Club History the other night and it mentioned Ben Sayers Jr oversaw the changes in '32. They were certainly the major changes that have remained largely untouched to this day.

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Ulrich Mayring

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Re: North Berwick and Ben Sayers
« Reply #19 on: January 04, 2012, 02:49:47 PM »
Melvyn, thanks for the interesting article.

Tom, what makes you think of Sir Guy Campbell and Cecil Key Hutchison? I do realise that in the West Sussex write-up (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/courses-by-country/england/westsussex1/) it is mentioned (although 1930 given as date), but don't know who wrote that piece.

Ulrich
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Shane Wright

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Re: North Berwick and Ben Sayers
« Reply #20 on: January 04, 2012, 11:04:33 PM »
Not to change the discussion but does anyone have any idea how old this is?



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Tom MacWood

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Re: North Berwick and Ben Sayers
« Reply #21 on: January 05, 2012, 09:38:44 PM »
Quote from: Ulrich Mayring on January 04, 2012, 02:49:47 PM
Melvyn, thanks for the interesting article.

Tom, what makes you think of Sir Guy Campbell and Cecil Key Hutchison? I do realise that in the West Sussex write-up (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/courses-by-country/england/westsussex1/) it is mentioned (although 1930 given as date), but don't know who wrote that piece.

Ulrich

Ulrich
The encyclopedia of golf claims Campbell redesigned the course in 1930. Campbell and Hutchison worked very closely during that period. Hutchison was born and raised around North Berwick. In a 1932 article in The Times Darwin gives the impression he was dragged out to look at the changes to NB. Campbell was a fellow contributor to The Times, and Hutchison was a good friend.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2012, 09:53:45 PM by Tom MacWood »
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Bill_McBride

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Re: North Berwick and Ben Sayers
« Reply #22 on: January 05, 2012, 10:23:24 PM »
Quote from: Shane Wright on January 04, 2012, 11:04:33 PM
Not to change the discussion but does anyone have any idea how old this is?





No idea, but I learned to my horror that it's possible to hook a drive directly behind the pro shop into an unplayable lie!   Wish I had a photo.......
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Ulrich Mayring

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Re: North Berwick and Ben Sayers
« Reply #23 on: January 06, 2012, 01:31:42 PM »
Tom, thanks a lot for the info. Perhaps the club will come up with more, I'll post if I find out anything else.

By the way, I just checked C&W again for something else and suddenly saw that they have it as well: they give 1930 as the date of a remodeling by Hutchison, Campbell and Hotchkin.

Wonder why I didn't see that before, must be getting old, stupid or both :)

Ulrich
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Tom_Doak

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Re: North Berwick and Ben Sayers
« Reply #24 on: January 06, 2012, 01:51:07 PM »
Quote from: Shane Wright on January 04, 2012, 11:04:33 PM
Not to change the discussion but does anyone have any idea how old this is?





Shane:

One of the very old books on golf courses -- I can't remember if it was Darwin's book or even Horace Hutchinson's -- mentions the pro shop at North Berwick being "underground" so it was been in that same position for a long time.  I doubt the building they use today is really from 1900 though.
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