[Jim Hoak]

If you are on the back-left side of the green on #8 at Pastiempo, and the hole is back right, it is impossible to get the ball closer to the hole than when you started.  Is that a good hole placement?

[astavrides]

I'm all for having to leave the ball below the hole sometimes.  But only if it is for the purpose of avoiding having to putt defensively or face 3 putting.  You should not have to leave the ball below the hole in order to avoid your next putt rolling 40 yds once it gets past the hole. 

Alex,
   Clearly you don't intend to golf at Crystal Downs. Particularly #11 as many here can attest to I'm sure. I'm not sure what the difference is between #8 Pasa that clearly demands you stay below the hole and most of the holes at Augusta for the Masters where one has to hit to very precise areas. Just hitting the green does not get the job done.

I think I stated clearly above that I am not opposed to below the hole being preferable.  But I've never seen anything at the Masters that is similar to what happens at 8 or 16 at Pasa.  And, for the record, I would be happy to take advantage of it if I ever get the opportunity to play Crystal Downs.

[ed_getka]

Alex,
   Did you not see Tiger putt off the green on #13 a couple of years ago at Augusta? There are plenty of 3-putt opportunites there when the pros are out of position. I'm sure the average golfer could have plenty of 4 putts. I know I have had rounds at Pasa where I struck the ball decently and had a comfortable day on the greens, and I've had days where I struck the ball decently and had to play defense with my putter all day. I guess what it comes down to for me is whether or not I have any control over where the ball lands and ends up. If I have the potential to keep the ball under the hole I am okay with the green speeds. And as long as my uphill putt doesn't roll back to my feet like it did for Payne Stewart at Olympic a number of years ago.

[Jay Flemma]

I still think 16 is tougher.  It's snake-bitten me twice...(twice I had it come back to my feet...)

[astavrides]

Alex,
   Did you not see Tiger putt off the green on #13 a couple of years ago at Augusta? There are plenty of 3-putt opportunites there when the pros are out of position. I'm sure the average golfer could have plenty of 4 putts. I know I have had rounds at Pasa where I struck the ball decently and had a comfortable day on the greens, and I've had days where I struck the ball decently and had to play defense with my putter all day. I guess what it comes down to for me is whether or not I have any control over where the ball lands and ends up. If I have the potential to keep the ball under the hole I am okay with the green speeds. And as long as my uphill putt doesn't roll back to my feet like it did for Payne Stewart at Olympic a number of years ago.

Yeah, I did see that.  I also remember him putting into the water at Valderrama #17 in the Ryder Cup.  I putted off the green into a bunker at Fox Chapel once.  I think those were all  overly aggressive, bad putts.  A lot of people at the president's cup at Royal Melbourne putted off the green and down the hill on the first par 3 (I forget what number it was with the reconfiguration).  On the other hand, Woods and a few others hit great putts on that hole and had short tap ins.  None of those instances bother me as much as being in a position on the green and having no chance to putt the ball without it running down to the front of the green.  If in fact the situation was that on #8 Joel, and all those others, could have had a chance to hit a great putt and have it finish within a couple feet, then maybe it isn't so bad.  But if the runaway putt (or a ending up back at your feet putt) is inevitable (unless the ball goes in the hole) from a certain spot on the green, then it is an unfair (and certainly no fun) situation.

[Sean_A]

I don't have a problem with a hole or two which obviously screams at the golfer that he will lose a shot if he goes above the hole so long as the slope isn't so severe that putts roll back to one's boots when he does take that one shot (stupidity) penalty.  It would get to be quite tiresome if this happens to a golfer twice in one round much like if one can't putt at a hole because of an odd green shape - once is okay, twice is taking the mickey.

Ciao 

[Jim Franklin]

I have not played Pasatiempo in 6 years, but the green that got me was #11. I have played the course four times and #11 got me everytime. In looking at my old score cards, I never three putted #8. I guess I was below the hole each time, but never 3 putted (or 4 for that matter). I am glad to hear that #11 has been softened though.

[Joel_Stewart]

I have not played Pasatiempo in 6 years, but the green that got me was #11. I have played the course four times and #11 got me everytime. In looking at my old score cards, I never three putted #8. I guess I was below the hole each time, but never 3 putted (or 4 for that matter). I am glad to hear that #11 has been softened though.

#11 has been softened but it's still severe.  Gib hit a long iron on the left middle and it came back off the front of the green and ended up 30 yards in front of the green.

All the greens are severe at Pasatiempo.  The question is are they too severe in todays game to the case of being unfair?

[Tim Passalacqua]

Can't we have severe greens like Pasatiempo and manage the green speeds so we can putt on them?  At slower speeds, they will still run out downhill and have a lot of break on a sidehill putt.  You can still have a pure putting surface which i would care more about.  I think of Tetherow with this situation.  Some really severe greens on a modern course.  A caddy said they top them out at 10 on stimp.  They are not 13, but the greens sure are fun to putt on.  You  would hate to see a set of great Mackenzie greens tinkered with just because you can cut grass shorter.

[Mike Benham]

I'm hoping that someone with more specific knowledge of Pasatiempo would comment but I don't believe that the club intends to have the green speeds as quick as they are now, on a consistent year round basis and that the unusual weather pattern that NorCal is enjoying (?) is providing some extreme challenges to the Pasatiempo team to keep to their maintenance objective.

But then again, I could be wrong ...

[David Kelly]

I'm hoping that someone with more specific knowledge of Pasatiempo would comment but I don't believe that the club intends to have the green speeds as quick as they are now, on a consistent year round basis and that the unusual weather pattern that NorCal is enjoying (?) is providing some extreme challenges to the Pasatiempo team to keep to their maintenance objective.

They were not nearly that fast in August, in fact they were slower than we had seen them in a while.

[astavrides]

#11 has been softened but it's still severe.  Gib hit a long iron on the left middle and it came back off the front of the green and ended up 30 yards in front of the green.

All the greens are severe at Pasatiempo.  The question is are they too severe in todays game to the case of being unfair?
[/quote]
Perfectly normal. Perfectly fair.  This way you don't worry about having to keep the ball below the hole on your approach.  The green does it for you.  ;-) Just about the exact same scenario happened to me on #16 once (and probably on #11, but I think I've mostly repressed it), and I don't think it is unusual on that hole.

As Mike B. said, hopefully it's mostly  just the unusual weather this winter, and the right maintenance/green speed(s) can be found.  If not, perhaps some reworks will be done.  Great and fun stuff there to be fully enjoyed if the silly and unfair situations can be eliminated.

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