Top 100 'Affordable' courses in Great Britain

[Mark_Rowlinson]

Here are some more that might be added to Sean's list. I hope I haven't duplicated too much.


Seaton Carew £42
Brancepeth Castle £36
Berwick upon Tweed (Goswick) £38
Bull Bay £35 (2011 rate)
Manchester £60
Pleasington £40
Sandy Lodge £50
Liphook £61
Blackmoor £50 (2011 rate)
Hindhead £70
Luffenham Heath £50
Royal Worlington £50
Sheringham £60
Seacroft £48 (2011 rate)
Pannal £60
Royal Ashdown Forest £66
Sandiway £50 (2011 rate)
Crowborough Beacon £40 (2011 rate)
Great Yarmouth and Caister £30
North Hants £60
Gog Magog £47 (2011 rate)
Fulford £55 (2011 rate)
Moortown £60
Burnham Beeches £50
Beaconsfield £55
Ashridge £67
Berkhamsted £50 (2011 rate)
Ilfracombe £28.50
North Foreland £40
Clitheroe £50
West Herts £42
East Berkshire £45
Fleetwood £35 (2011 rate)
Thorndon Park £55
Worthing £50
Woodbridge £45
Oakdale £50 (2011 rate)
Bamburgh Castle £37.50
Trevose £68
St Annes Old Links £60
Stockport £50

[Adrian_Stiff]

I agree about the £80 band still being a bit toppy. I think Under £50 is a definite band that seems important to multiple play. I also think Under £30 is important too and too many £20 is enough for a game golf. I think much past £50 does not matter if its a great course we want to play it but will probably only afford 1 play.

I dont think the Stranahan really belongs in an under £80 list though at £19 represents good value but its still got flaws being on just 72 acres, our other course The Codrington at £48 does belong though. Couple of my others, Cumberwell, Kendleshire, Dainton and Oake Manor probably should be in 'affordable' llists since they are very busy so must be offering great value.

[Mark Chaplin]

Knole Park near Sevenoaks at £45 is great value for an Abercombie 30 mins from central London.

[Mark_Rowlinson]

Green fees 1968

For comparison, here are sample green fees from Donald Steel’s Golf Course Guide of 1968. For those who are unfamiliar with pre-decimal British currency the £ remained unchanged, but where now it is divided into 100 pence, it was in those days divided into twenty shillings which were themselves divided into twelve pence. So, 2/6 was two shillings and sixpence which was an eighth of a £. Two pounds, ten shillings and fourpence was written £2/10/4.  For some reason most green fees are given in shillings even when they are greater than £. Thus 50/- is also £2/10/-

Weekday fees unless otherwise specified. Many clubs offered weekly, fortnightly or monthly tickets. I have quoted only a few. Some entries seem to contradict (eg R St George’s and Rye)

England, Channel Islands and Isle of Man

La Moye 30/- per day
Manor House Hotel (now Bovey Castle) 10/- per day (15/- non-resident)
Perranporth 7/6 per round
Royal Jersey 30/- (unspecified)
Royal North Devon 15/- per round
St Enodoc Easter to October 20/- per day
Saunton 20/-, weekly tickets £4, monthly tickets £8, June-Sept 25/- per day, £6 per week, £12 per month
West Cornwall 12/6 per round
Yelverton 10/- per round

Broadstone 20/-
Burnham and Berrow 20/- per round or day, weekly tickets £3, monthly tickets £6
Ferndown 30/-, weekly tickets 6 guineas (six pounds, six shillings)
Parkstone  20/-

Berkshire 45/-
Blackmoor 12/6
Frilford Heath 20/-
Hayling 15/-
Liphook 20/-
Newport (IOW) 7/6
North Hants 20/-
Stoneham 15/-

The Addington 25/-
Burhill 35/-
Camberley Heath 20/-
Coombe Hill (visitors must be introduced by a member) 40/- per round, weekends must play with a member 50/- per round.
Crowborough Beacon 15/- per round
Goodwood 30/-
Hankley Common 20/-
Hindhead 20/-
Littlestone 20/-
London Scottish 7/6
New Zealand ‘visitors welcome with member’ 20/- (15/- with member)
Prince’s 20/- per round 30/- per day
Royal Ashdown Forest 15/-
RAC Country Club ‘welcome only with a member’ 20/- per round.
Royal Blackheath 20/-
Royal Cinque Ports 20/-
Royal Mid-Surrey 40/-
Royal St George’s ‘Visitors welcome on weekdays with member, not normally at weekends) 25/- per round (15/- with member)
Royal Wimbledon 30/- per round
Rye ‘Visitors welcome if introduced by member’ 25/- per round (15/- with member)
St George’s Hill ‘Visitors welcome on weekdays but must be introduced by a member’ 20/- per round (10/- playing with a member)
Tandridge ‘Visitors welcome if introduced by Secretary of own club’ 25/- per round
Walton Heath weekdays 40/-
West Hill 20/-
West Kent 20/-
West Sussex 30/-
Woking ‘Visitors welcome on weekdays if introduced by a member’ 17/6 per round
Worplesdon 20/-

Ashridge 30/-
Berkhampsted 15/-
Finchley 20/-
Mill Hill 20/-
Moor Park 40/-
Orsett 20/-
Royal Epping Forest 4/6
Sandy Lodge 25/-
Thorndon Park 20/-
West Herts 20/-

Beaconsfield 30/-
Bedford and County 10/-
Burnham Beeches 20/-
Denham 25/-
Flackwell Heath 25/-
Gerrards Cross 20/-
Huntercombe 20/-
John O’Gaunt 20/-
Northamptonshire County ‘Limited to 4 visits per year’ 15/-
Southfield 15/-
Stoke Poges 30/-
Tadmarton Heath 20/-

Aldeburgh ‘Welcome with a letter of introduction from Secretary of own club) 20/-
Felixstowe Ferry 12/6 per round
Gog Magog 15/-
Gt Yarmouth and Caister 10/- per round
Hunstanton ‘Visitors welcome all week without reservation’ 15/- per round
Royal Cromer 12/6 per round
Royal West Norfolk – no details given other than the telephone number
Royal Worlington 12/6 per round
Sheringham 12/6
Thorpeness 12/6
Woodbridge 15/-

Charnwood Forest 15/-
Coxmoor 15/-
Lindrick 20/-
Luffenham Heath 20/-
Notts ‘Visitors welcome without reservation’ 25/-
Seacroft 12/6 per day
Sherwood Forest 15/- per day
Woodhall Spa 15/- per round

Blackwell – doesn’t even give the phone number!
Broadway 10/- per round
Copt Heath 20/- per round
Droitwich 7/6 per round
Edgbaston 20/-
Harborne 20/-
Kington 10/-
Long Ashton 15/-
Minchinhampton 7/6 per round
Painswick 7/6 per day
St Pierre 12/6 per round
Sutton Coldfield 20/-
Worcester G and CC 20/-
Worcestershire 15/-

Beau Desert 20/-
Cavendish weekdays in summer 10/- per round
Church Stretton 7/6
Delamere Forest 30/-
Enville 20/- per round
Little Aston 35/-
Llanymynech 6/-
Prestbury 30/-
Reddish Vale 10/- per round
Royal Liverpool ‘Visitors welcome without reservation with introduction from Secretary of own club’ 40/- per round
Sandiway 30/-
Wallasey 20/-
Whittington Barracks (sic) 20/-
Wilmslow 20/-

More to follow

[Mark_Rowlinson]

Castletown 12/6, weekly tickets 55/-
Fairhaven 20/-
Fleetwood 12/6
Formby 30/- per day
Grange Fell 3/6 per round
Grange over Sands 7/6 per round
Green Drive 10/- per round (this was an Open Championship final qualifying venue)
Hillside 20/-
Manchester 15/-
Pleasington 15/- per day
Royal Birkdale 30/- per round
Royal Lytham 30/- per round
St Annes Old Links 20/- per day
Southport and Ainsdale 20/-
West Lancs 20/- per day

Alwoodley 20/- per round
Bridlington 7/6 per round
Crosland Heath 10/- per round
Fulford 10/- per round
Ganton weekdays and Saturdays 25/- per round
Harrogate 15/- per round
Huddersfiekd 12/6 per round
Ilkley 15/- per round
Moor Allerton (original site) 15/- per round
Moortown 20/- per round
Pannal 15/- per round
Sand Moor 15/- per round
Scarborough North Cliff 10/-

Bamburgh Castle 7/6
Berwick-upon-Tweed 5/-
Brancepeth Castle 15/-
City of Newcastle 10/- per day
Hartlepool 10/- per day
Hexham 10/- per day
Northumberland 12/6 per day
Seascale 10/- per day
Seaton Carew 15/- (ladies 10/-)
Silloth 10/-

Scotland

Boat of Garten 7/6 per day
Brora 6/-, weekly tickets 27/6, monthly tickets 65/-
Golspie 5/-
Islay 5/- per round
Machrihanish 10/- per round
Royal Dornoch ‘Visitors welcome without reservation’ 10/- per round

Carnoustie Courses ‘Visitors welcome without reservation’ weekdays 7/6 or 5/- per round or day
Cruden Bay 6/- per round
Hopeman 2/6 per day
Monifieth 6/- per round
Moray 7/6
Nairn 12/6 per round
Panmure 20/- per round
Royal Aberdeen 15/- per round

Balcomie (Crail) 6/- per round
Blairgowrie 15/- per round
Gleneagles 30/- (residents 15/-)
Golf House Club (Elie) 10/- per round
Ladybank 6/- per round
Leven 7/6 per round
Lundin 10/- per round
St Andrews courses – prices not quoted

Bruntsfield Links ‘Visitors welcome on weekdays if playing with a member, or if suitably introduced’ 20/- per round
Dunbar 7/6 per round
Gullane 15/-, 10/-, 7/6 per round
HCEG ‘Visitors must be introduced. Green fees on application’
North Berwick 7/6 per round

Glasgow Golf Club ‘Visitors welcome only if introduced by member. Green fees 15/- on Sundays’
Haggs Castle 7/6 per round with member
Lanark 7/6 per round

Bellisle 5/- and 4/6 per round
Girvan 3/6 per round
Kilmarnock Barassie 20/- per round if introduced
Powfoot 7/6 per round
Prestwick ‘Visitors welcome without reservation’ 15/- per round
Prestwick St Nicholas 12/6 per round
Shiskine 7/6 per day
Southerness 6/- per round or day
Troon GC (not yet Royal) 25/- and 20/- per day
Turnberry Hotel Hotel residents 12/6 per round. Non-residents 30/-

Yet more to follow....

[Mark_Rowlinson]

Wales

Aberdovey 10/- per round
Bull Bay 7/6
Conway 10/-
Nefyn 15/-
North Wales 12/6 per round
Royal St Davids 20/-

Ashburnham 15/- per day
Glamorganshire 15/- (men) 10/- (women)
Llandrindod Wells 10/- per round
Pennard 15/- per day
Pyle & Kenfig 15/-
Royal Porthcawl 20/-
Southerndown 20/- per day
Tenby 20/- per day

Ireland

Ardglass 7/6
Balmoral 15/-
Belvoir Park 7/6 per round
Holywood 12/6
Kirkistown Castle 7/6 (ladies 5/-)
Portstewart 10/-
Royal Belfast 20/-
Royal Co Down 20/-
Royal Portrush 15/- and 10/-

Grange 12/6
Hermitage 15/-
Island 12/6
Portmarnock 25/-
Royal Dublin 30/-

Ballybunion 12/6
Ballyliffin 5/-
Cork 15/-
Co Louth 10/- per day
Co Sligo 15/-
Dooks 7/6
Enniscrone 5/- per day
Galway 15/-
Killarney 17/6
Lahinch 15/-, ladies 10/-
Narin and Portnoo 7/6 per day
Portsalon 5/- per round
Tramore 10/-
Waterville 7/6 per day
Woodbrook 20/-

[Duncan Cheslett]

I would heartily reccommend North Manchester at £36.00.

Incidentally, Reddish Vale is also £36.00, and not £26.00 as suggested in Sean's list. If you play with a member however, it's a lot cheaper!

 

I still think that the £80 threshold is very high - most golfers I know would only pay over £50 for a once in a lifetime visit to an Open course or suchlike.

£50 is an obvious cut-off point, and we seem to be compiling a great list of very good courses that come in below that price point. I wouldn't mind spending the next few years working my way through them!

[Duncan Cheslett]

Very interesting to see that the green fee for so many good courses was around a pound back in 1968.

According to http://safalra.com/other/historical-uk-inflation-price-conversion/ £1.00 in 1968 is equivalent to £13.00 now.

And we're told that golf  has never been cheaper...



PS Thanks for the copywriting service, Mark!

 

[Mark_Rowlinson]

Thanks for the equivalent, Duncan.

I remember those days well and as an undergraduate I could afford to play places such as Frilford, Northampton County, Huntercombe and so on easily. Southfield for an undergraduate was £5 a year!

[Duncan Cheslett]

The photo of Tandridge on the front page of this site prompted me to look it up;

http://www.tandridgegolfclub.com/

It looks absolutely gorgeous yet only features as an also-ran on the list - even at £71.00

The £29.00 twilight rate looks a real bargain.

[Mark_Rowlinson]

Tandridge is probably one of those places that is emerging from a twilight period. It seems to be mentioned on this site more than it used to. I used to play it a bit in the 70s and it was too tight for my erratic driving, but I think they've done some tree removal. There are a lot of sleeper courses within range of London. Nobody bothered with the Addington apart from Peter Allen in his book. West Kent is another that is being recognised as a lovely course. Liphook and Hankley were little recognised on here until BUDA and there's much to be said for Hindhead just down the road. Blackmoor, too, is a wonderful course (and place). For that matter, Reddish Vale was largely dismissed by many Cheshire golfers who didn't like where it was situated and didn't like the hills. I've been banging on about it in print since the mid 90s and Sean and I have done our bit on here. Now you have visitors from Australia and America, and justifiably so.

Seaton Carew, Brancepeth Castle etc etc There are a lot of very good golf courses needing the help of a photo tour on here.

[Jim McCann]

Sean

Some of the very best Scottish golf deals can be obtained by using an Openfairways card.

They notionally cost £89 a year but I’ve seen them offered for £39 before.

The www.top100golfcourses.co.uk website has a joint venture with Openfairways, enabling
golfers to purchase a Top 100 Golf Club card that lasts for TWO years at a cost of £69.

The best Scottish deals using this card that I’ve come across are as follows:

(with the 25 - 50% discount for 1-4 golfers)

Dundonald, £47.50
Panmure £37.50
Scotscraig £42
Boat of Garten £29 (during April, June and October only)
Fraserburgh (Corbie) £37.50
Lanark £21
Glen £34
Prestwick St Nicholas £45
Longniddry £37.50
East Renfrewshire £37.50
Duddingston £24
Mortonhall £34
Peterhead (Old) £30
Newmachar (Hawkshill) £25
Forfar £17
Newburgh-on-Ythan £28
Elgin £29
Musselburgh £32

(with 2 golfers for the price of 1)

Montrose (Medal) £27.50
Gullane (No.2) £23.50
Lanark £21
Portpartrick (Dunskey) £17
Gullane (No.3) £15

Personally, I think the 50% off rates for Panmure, Forfar and Newmachar (Hawkshill) are great value. The equivalent discount when playing with somebody else at Lanark, Gullane (No.2) and (No.3) is also a tremendous bargain.

Of course, if you are a member of a Scottish club and you purchase an annual SGU card for £10, you can play any of the
following courses once during the year for half price:

Downfield
Monifieth (Medal)
Crail (Craighead)
Murcar Links
Blairgowrie (Lansdowne)

BEST bargain of all was to be had a couple of months ago when "Bunkered" magazine, a Scottish golf publication, was giving
away FREE vouchers to play St Andrews (Dukes) AND Turnberry (Kintyre) anytime before 31 December 2012 if an annual
subscription of £34 was taken out or renewed - what an absolute steal as the rack rate for these two tracks is around 200
quid combined!

[Mark Chaplin]

Mark - Rye used to be private but you could play introduced but unaccompanied by a member or play with a member, they still do but now allow limited un-introduced play as well.

[Sean_A]

Sean

Some of the very best Scottish golf deals can be obtained by using an Openfairways card.

They notionally cost £89 a year but I’ve seen them offered for £39 before.

The www.top100golfcourses.co.uk website has a joint venture with Openfairways, enabling
golfers to purchase a Top 100 Golf Club card that lasts for TWO years at a cost of £69.

The best Scottish deals using this card that I’ve come across are as follows:

(with the 25 - 50% discount for 1-4 golfers)

Dundonald, £47.50
Panmure £37.50
Scotscraig £42
Boat of Garten £29 (during April, June and October only)
Fraserburgh (Corbie) £37.50
Lanark £21
Glen £34
Prestwick St Nicholas £45
Longniddry £37.50
East Renfrewshire £37.50
Duddingston £24
Mortonhall £34
Peterhead (Old) £30
Newmachar (Hawkshill) £25
Forfar £17
Newburgh-on-Ythan £28
Elgin £29
Musselburgh £32

(with 2 golfers for the price of 1)

Montrose (Medal) £27.50
Gullane (No.2) £23.50
Lanark £21
Portpartrick (Dunskey) £17
Gullane (No.3) £15

Personally, I think the 50% off rates for Panmure, Forfar and Newmachar (Hawkshill) are great value. The equivalent discount when playing with somebody else at Lanark, Gullane (No.2) and (No.3) is also a tremendous bargain.

Of course, if you are a member of a Scottish club and you purchase an annual SGU card for £10, you can play any of the
following courses once during the year for half price:

Downfield
Monifieth (Medal)
Crail (Craighead)
Murcar Links
Blairgowrie (Lansdowne)

BEST bargain of all was to be had a couple of months ago when "Bunkered" magazine, a Scottish golf publication, was giving
away FREE vouchers to play St Andrews (Dukes) AND Turnberry (Kintyre) anytime before 31 December 2012 if an annual
subscription of £34 was taken out or renewed - what an absolute steal as the rack rate for these two tracks is around 200
quid combined!

Jim

Give us your recos for straight prices off the street. 

Mark

Thanks!  Is it possible for you to say which courses you definitely think should be included in a top 100?  Looking at the list, there are only three courses I wouldn't recommend; North Hants, Berkhamsted (jury still out) and Trevose.

Ciao

[Tony_Muldoon]

Readng some of the prices above are significantly less than I paid when I played them. Thorndon Park and Luffenham Heath come to mind. (memeory might be faulty here)

I decided to check what I thought of as the real bargains I’ve palyed and enjoyed.
Some quick Googling through a section of ‘decent’ courses  mostly near my part of London, show an amazing price drop.  The prices below are mostly what would have been special or twilight offers 5 years ago.  I suspect there is more price discounting on the way for private clubs if they are to compete with the following.  (another 27 hole complex opens soon -within 10 miles of this first group )

..  I would be happy  to get each of these every year.  The majority of courses I’ve played that you’ve never heard of will not see me again.
 All £20 or under

Hainaultf Forrest   £19   (unbelievably a buggy adds £22)
2 courses and I think the lower is a Doak 5 sadly undermined by poor maintenance and I’m hearing bad things.  Wiil try and  drag Pearce here after work this summer.

The Priors   £12 short and quirky with excellent greens http://www.staplefordabbottsgolf.co.uk/showpage.asp?p=313
The main course is tight and a real yawn.   Discussing the relative merits of the two with various golfers, including members, shows me how far my views are form the majority of  players.

Epping Golf Course £14
http://www.eppinggolfcourse.org.uk/green%20fees.html
I have my handicap here and it’s full of quirk.  Most golfers dismiss it for lack of length, rough and trees.

A  nine holer

Hobbs X Weald £15.40
http://www.hobbscrossgolfcentre.com/pages/our-green-fees
The perfect learn to play place.  Little rough and greens that repell the ball means , beginners keep moving and as you improve you have to play well to score.  
Further away
Selsdon Park   Used to hold pro tournaments.  Gets a little wet in winter but i must get back. They spent money a few years ago and put the fees up.  Have now dropped to lower than before. From memory This could be top 200 in GB&I
£20
http://www.principal-hayley.com/browse-our-hotels/selsdon-park-hotel--golf-club/golf/green-fees.aspx

The Downshire – have seen it referred to in print as the best Municipal course in the country
£15!
http://www.bracknell-forest.gov.uk/leisure/leis-downshire-golf-complex/leis-green-fee-prices.htm


Queens Park
For safety reasons it’s been a little emasculated, but once featured tournaments with Seve.
Good course in a rich part of the South East.
£10!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Jim McCann]

Sean

I’d quite forgotten another way of playing many of the top Scottish courses on the cheap and that’s to compete in their annual Gents Open.

As long as you’re a member of a recognised club with an official handicap then you’re in, paying a fraction of the regular green fee.

I’ve played Elie like this for the last seven or eight years when competing in Earlsferry Thistle’s James Braid/John Smith Open on the first Saturday in June.

There’s an A5 sized hand book published every February called “The Wee Yellow Book” and it lists many of the individual and team competitions that will be held during the season ahead. The Golf Central portal on the SGU website offers a similar service.

Ten recommended Scottish courses that still offer great value for a modest outlay, even if a discount voucher/card is not used:

Brora £45
Boat of Garten £39
Letham Grange (Old) £30
Kilspindie £40
Kilmacolm £35
Forfar £34
Gullane (No.3) £30
Golspie £40
Auchterarder £35
Musselburgh £42

[jeffwarne]

Jeff,

Those are the quoted summer rates, at least they're supposed to be.  And Ireland isn't there because this is a list of courses in Great Britain.

Mark,
I picked two courses I felt suspect.(more than 80 pounds)
in both cases, on their website their nonwinter visitor rate exceeded 80 pounds.
West lancashire was one of them (weekday 90 pounds), I can't remember the other,but again I only looked up two.
If I only checked two and both were bogus, I'd say there are probably others.

I mentioned Ireland because many were referencing courses in Ireland.

As stated above, Open fairways is a great way to get good discounts.

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Play with a Member and most all are very reasonable.

[Ulrich Mayring]

Duh... they took £95 from me at Dornoch two years ago... repeatedly

Ulrich

[David_Tepper]

Ulrich -

If you paid 95 pounds at Dornoch two years ago, it was for a day ticket on the Championship & Struie courses, not for a single round on the Championship course.

http://www.royaldornoch.com/uploads/Green_Fees_2010_2012.pdf

DT

[Ulrich Mayring]

Nah, wasn't a day ticket, just the championship course. Played with an official tee time one day and the other day in the afternoon, was the same price both times. As you can see in your price list the regular price in 2011 was 90 / 100 pounds for weekday / week-end (I was there in 2010).

Ulrich

[Niall C]

Jim

Some of those prices look on the high side. Is that before you take off the discount ?

In my experience there is usually some deal being offered somewhere, particularly at the start of the season or the end of the season. In recent years I recall Dundonald offering deals of between £100 and £140 for a fourball, Barassie was offering £100 for a fourball during last December, and I'm sure there are similar deals if you look around.

For the last few years the Press and Journal has published tokens for clubs all over the north of Scotland valid during the March and October. Each token allows the members of the group (fourball max) to get on for £12 each. Courses include Fraserburgh, Duff House Royal, Peterhead, Elgin, Forres, Cullen, Tain, Ballater, Kingussie, Newtonmore and numerous courses round Aberdeen. While you're not getting the courses at their absolute best, its still terrific value for money.

I also recall the first time I played the Glen which was on a Open Fairways deal and it cost £10. Couldn't believe it. I heard recently that the Glen does a winter membership deal for £180. Pretty good value if you normally play on some inland course thats a bog during the winter.

The moral of the story is that if you live hear and are avaialble to take advantage of the offers as they come up you can play other courses very cheaply. Unfortunately its not so easy to get deals to order when you're only here for a week in the height of summer.

Niall

[Sean_A]

The moral of the story is that if you live hear and are avaialble to take advantage of the offers as they come up you can play other courses very cheaply. Unfortunately its not so easy to get deals to order when you're only here for a week in the height of summer.

Niall

Which is why it is best to focus on rack prices rather than discount prices for a thread such as this. 

I am still interested in folks coming up with their own lists which aren't reliant upon discounts.

Ciao

[Niall C]

Sean

Equally, if there are deals going a begging, its pointless focusing purely on the rack rented offerings on club websites. Its a bit like headline rents in the property business. They sound good but as every good agent will tell you the true cost is hidden by the unseen incentives offered to the tenant.

If we're looking at affordable golf then it makes sense to point out how or where the best deals can be had IMO.

Niall

[Jud_T]

Niall,

I'm with Sean on this one.  Yes it might be nice to have a place to post deals that are running, but for the purposes of a list such as this you have to look at the rack rate.  It's the only way to get an apples to apples comparison.  i.e. for a guy planning a trip looking to put together some interesting courses that won't break the bank.  One should always look for deals, but they are hit or miss.