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Mitch St. Peter

Folks,
I don't believe this topic has been directly covered in another post. Forgive me if I am wrong.

The renovation/restoration of Cal Club might be the biggest GCA event in Nor Cal in some time. Cal Club may now own the best course in the greater SF area, but more importantly, it now manages an inland course with true firm and fast conditions - something that is not found in Nor Cal environments with any consistency. I played the course for the first time in pouring rain and was amazed that my ball would still bounce down the fairway. At Olympic (my home club) a bit of rain can wreak havoc on conditions (although vastly improved after the tree removal program).  While SFGC and Lake Merced were built on sandier sites and drain MUCH better than Olympic, they still does not have firm and fast conditions.

So, my question is two-fold:

1) What was the biggest factor in creating firm/fast conditions at Cal Club?
Was the course built on an especially sandy site and years of tree overgrowth ruined draining that the tree-removal program corrected?

Is it the fescue mix in in the fairways?

Is it the 4-6 inches of sand spread across the playing services? Or, do all three factors contribute equally to the fantastic playing conditions at Cal Club.

2) More importantly, is this driving conversation at Nor Cal clubs about creating firm/fast conditions via a fescue mix or installing sand below the playing surface? If the playing conditions are so good at Cal Club, why aren't other clubs with the money/will thinking about adopting similar conditions? Is there something I am missing about the topography of the Cal Club site?

I'm bringing this up now for two reasons: first, Olympic's Ocean Course will be renovated (yet again) during the Open with Bill Love installing bent greens and changing the green complexes on several holes. I'm wondering if this is yet another opportunity missed to improve the playing conditions for the Ocean course, especially because it is much more exposed to the elements than the Lake.

And second, I love the new shaved areas around the greens at the Lake as they have introduced more creative recovery shots. I'm praying that they will remain in place after the Open is far and gone...but I won't hold my breadth. The shaved areas make me wonder how a firm/fast Olympic might play.

I would love your thoughts. Thanks in advance.

Joel_Stewart

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Re: Firm/Fast conditions at Cal Club and implications for Nor Cal Golf
« Reply #1 on: December 28, 2011, 10:28:22 AM »

So, my question is two-fold:

1) What was the biggest factor in creating firm/fast conditions at Cal Club?

The biggest factor is you have a membership, a president, a superintendent, architect, and a green chair that understand how golf is played and want to provide a course giving options.  Olympic Club lacks that!


Joel_Stewart

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Re: Firm/Fast conditions at Cal Club and implications for Nor Cal Golf
« Reply #2 on: December 28, 2011, 10:38:01 AM »

I'm bringing this up now for two reasons: first, Olympic's Ocean Course will be renovated (yet again) during the Open with Bill Love installing bent greens and changing the green complexes on several holes. I'm wondering if this is yet another opportunity missed to improve the playing conditions for the Ocean course, especially because it is much more exposed to the elements than the Lake.

And second, I love the new shaved areas around the greens at the Lake as they have introduced more creative recovery shots. I'm praying that they will remain in place after the Open is far and gone...but I won't hold my breadth. The shaved areas make me wonder how a firm/fast Olympic might play.

I would love your thoughts. Thanks in advance.

If you believe that the superintendent at Olympic Club is responsible for the shaved areas around the greens you are 100% wrong.  That is 100 percent from the USGA and Mike Davis.  The superintendent has always been against these type of conditions and prefers deep rough and as long as course as possible.  He has a complete lack of knowledge and understanding on how to play the game from the ground.  He has been at Olympic for well over 10 years now as hasn't been able how to figure out the rough lines so look for the USGA to take control of that very soon.

JMEvensky

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Re: Firm/Fast conditions at Cal Club and implications for Nor Cal Golf
« Reply #3 on: December 28, 2011, 10:49:44 AM »
I don't know the specifics at the Cal Club,but if any club wants to prioritize fast and firm conditions:

1) Give the Super the tools he needs.

2) Run interference for him with the naysaying members.

3) Stay the hell out of his way.

You'll get everything Mother Nature will allow.

Mitch St. Peter

Re: Firm/Fast conditions at Cal Club and implications for Nor Cal Golf
« Reply #4 on: December 28, 2011, 11:51:07 AM »
Thanks for feedback thus far. I'm well aware that Mike Davis and USGA are responsible for the shaved areas around the greens (and some great features with on 6 and 14 that will allow balls to run into hazards more easily).

But, other than the superintendent having the backing to do so, what environmental/natural issues preclude more courses following in Cal Clubs footsteps across Northern California.

I don't mean this to be a Olympic-centric thread by any means....but I do know Olympic best and consider these issues through the lens of the Lake and our membership.

Joel_Stewart

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Re: Firm/Fast conditions at Cal Club and implications for Nor Cal Golf
« Reply #5 on: December 28, 2011, 01:28:19 PM »
But, other than the superintendent having the backing to do so, what environmental/natural issues preclude more courses following in Cal Clubs footsteps across Northern California.

Resistance to change is hard in any aspect of life.  When you have a club with so many members who are use to one thing, it's almost impossible which is why these changes haven't been implemented in more clubs across the country, not just Northern California.

Cal Club, Los Angeles CC and Pinehurst have set the bar very high and are great examples of well thought out restorations that bring environmental issues into play.

To answer your question, the main issues which preclude clubs from doing this type of work is 1) lack of vision, 2) lack of money and 3) resistance to change.

Dan_Lucas

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Re: Firm/Fast conditions at Cal Club and implications for Nor Cal Golf
« Reply #6 on: December 28, 2011, 01:31:10 PM »
Joel Stewart

Even if you have complete knowledge of every aspect affecting the Superintendent job at Olympic, which I doubt, this is no place for that kind of personal attack against a man who can't defend himself publicly.

Dan

Tim Passalacqua

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Re: Firm/Fast conditions at Cal Club and implications for Nor Cal Golf
« Reply #7 on: December 28, 2011, 06:33:46 PM »
Mitch,

I think playing cal club is a lot of fun and a new experience.  I love the firm conditions of fescue, but sure love putting on true bent greens.  I think the only courses in nor cal that could handle fescue would be from cal club up to marin.  The conditions would be just cool enough year around for fescue to grow.  It would get destroyed with the summer heat of the south bay and east bay.  I play at Olympic as well and have thought the ocean course should take a note from cal club.  Bring in Doak or Coore, plant fescue, and design a wide, ground game course that would provide a totally different experience than the lake.  Let's make it different so it doesn't always live in the lakes shadow and it could be something fun and playable, especially for the older membership.  I agree and hope we keep all of the new shaved areas around the push up greens.  You wouldn't grow rough up around pinehursts green?  Let's add another dimension to the short game there.  I am all for firm and fast.  Can we achieve it with bent grass? 

David_Tepper

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Re: Firm/Fast conditions at Cal Club and implications for Nor Cal Golf
« Reply #8 on: December 28, 2011, 06:46:06 PM »
Tim P. -

Your comments regarding making the OC Ocean Course different from the Lake Course and making it more playable for the older members make me laugh just a bit.

I played the Ocean Course many times as it existed prior to the 1983 landslide west of Skyline Blvd. and that incarnation of the course was almost exactly what you are asking for! The course was shorter & sportier than the Lake and was certainly much more playable for a double-digit handicap such as myself. It remains my favorite version of the Ocean in the 30+ years I have been playing golf at Olympic.

DT      
« Last Edit: December 28, 2011, 06:50:08 PM by David_Tepper »

Ben Jarvis

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Re: Firm/Fast conditions at Cal Club and implications for Nor Cal Golf
« Reply #9 on: December 28, 2011, 07:40:26 PM »
Mitch,

I love the firm conditions of fescue, but sure love putting on true bent greens.  I think the only courses in nor cal that could handle fescue would be from cal club up to marin.  The conditions would be just cool enough year around for fescue to grow.  It would get destroyed with the summer heat of the south bay and east bay.

Tim,

At my club in Australia, one of our courses has fescue fairways. It is commonly over 85 degrees and sometimes over 100 degrees in the peak of summer. The fescue is very resilient but does require a lot of water.
Twitter: @BennyJarvis
Instagram: @bennyj08

Tim Passalacqua

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Re: Firm/Fast conditions at Cal Club and implications for Nor Cal Golf
« Reply #10 on: December 28, 2011, 08:59:32 PM »
Does anybody know any courses that have fescue fairways and firm, bent greens?  All of the the fescue greens I have played (the courses at bandon, tetherow, and cal club) never seem to get a dense, grass putting surface.  The grass seems very thin and it feels like you are putting on packed sand.  They putt true, but is it better than playing pure, bent greens?  What have you guys seen as far as nice, fescue putting surfaces?

Tiger_Bernhardt

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Re: Firm/Fast conditions at Cal Club and implications for Nor Cal Golf
« Reply #11 on: December 28, 2011, 10:44:01 PM »
I think MPCC Shore also plays firm and fast. I do not see any other nocal courses other than the Cal Club and MPCC Shore which play firm and fast over 90% of the time. The comments on the Olympic Club confuse me a little. It plays much firmer post tree removal. No it does not play firm and fast very often though.

Mitch St. Peter

Re: Firm/Fast conditions at Cal Club and implications for Nor Cal Golf
« Reply #12 on: December 29, 2011, 08:22:34 AM »
Ben - very interesing on the fescue holding up in hot conditions. I wonder if it is a different strain than is used in British Isles? On the coast of Northern California, it rarely gets above 75 and is mostly between 60-75 so my guess it that the heat is not a major issue for fescue here.

Agreed on O club. Outside of an Open, it rarely plays firm an fast although the tree removal program has definitely helped playing conditions a LOT.

I'm interested to hear if a fescue fairway/bent green course exists. Agreed, the putting surfaces at Cal Club feel a bit off despite the fact they roll very true. It might be that it just feels a bit different to putt on fescue in Nor Cal as opposed to poa/bent.

Does anyone know of any courses that are thinking about sand capping fairways? Either in nor cal or elsewhere? How is that process going?


Joel_Stewart

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Re: Firm/Fast conditions at Cal Club and implications for Nor Cal Golf
« Reply #13 on: December 29, 2011, 10:24:32 AM »
Does anybody know any courses that have fescue fairways and firm, bent greens?  All of the the fescue greens I have played (the courses at bandon, tetherow, and cal club) never seem to get a dense, grass putting surface.  The grass seems very thin and it feels like you are putting on packed sand.  They putt true, but is it better than playing pure, bent greens?  What have you guys seen as far as nice, fescue putting surfaces?

Drive across the Bay Bridge to TPC Stonebrae.  They have an odd fairway mix which is 50% fescue mix, some bluegrass and a small amount of bent.  David Kidds father is an agronomist and developed the mix.  The greens are all bent.  I'm not sure you know but Pat Finlen refuses to use an agronomist, one because he thinks he knows it all and two because he refuses to pay.  The club had one of the best known agronomists in the country on retainer but Pat screwed him and refused to pay him for his advice so the contract was not renewed.  He leans on Bill Love for advice which is laughable.

The original plan for Olympic developed by Watson and Whiting was for the Ocean course to be windswept and the Lake to be tree lined.  This objective was lost years ago and completely dead when Weiskopf and Morrish rebuilt the Ocean course.  The entire fun, shorter, quirky aspect of the Ocean course has been bulldozed.  With Finlen and Love rebuilding the greens on the Ocean after the Open, you'll see all the greens on the Ocean look like the 14th hole, absolute crap.

I'm not sure were you are going with all this but until Dennis and Pat are gone, you're not going anywhere with any type of proposal.  Finlen is one of the highest paid superintendents in the country and nobody tells him anything.  He is supported by Dennis Bouey and former chairs on the green committee such as Steve Meeker and Pat Murphy who are the epitome of the old guard.

Joel_Stewart

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Re: Firm/Fast conditions at Cal Club and implications for Nor Cal Golf
« Reply #14 on: December 29, 2011, 10:37:51 AM »
Joel Stewart

Even if you have complete knowledge of every aspect affecting the Superintendent job at Olympic, which I doubt, this is no place for that kind of personal attack against a man who can't defend himself publicly.

Dan

Dan: 

I don't know who you are but can tell you I was a member at Olympic for almost 20 years and sat on the green committee.  I was there on day one when the superintendent was hired and have watched his every move since then.  Olympic Club is a case study on bad governance and a rogue superintendent who has no knowledge or appreciation on classic architecture.  The club has dropped in every single magazine rankings, as an example, going from #10 to #27 on Golf Digests list for good reason.

I suggest you read the following thread.  Warning, if you think this thread is harsh, you may not want to read it.

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,40054.0.html

You or any other person can contact me directly if you wish to discuss. 

Dan_Lucas

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Re: Firm/Fast conditions at Cal Club and implications for Nor Cal Golf
« Reply #15 on: December 30, 2011, 01:07:06 PM »
Joel

I am a Superintendent. I just don't think it feels right to bash an individual publicly when they are unable to defend themselves.

That Super (I do not know him) would not still be employed there if he wasn't making the decision-makers at the club happy. Your real beef is with them. That can only be addressed in the club political arena.

Superintendents are not the lone decision-makers on renovations or day to day conditions. They do what they can to provide what is asked of them by their bosses. If they don't deliver, they're gone. Obviously this guy has made the right people at his club happy.

Dan

JC Jones

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Re: Firm/Fast conditions at Cal Club and implications for Nor Cal Golf
« Reply #16 on: December 30, 2011, 04:26:37 PM »
I wonder for how long "rogue superintendents" are typically employed? 

It also seems contradictory to say that the playing conditions are a result of BOTH bad governance AND a rogue superintendent.
I get it, you are mad at the world because you are an adult caddie and few people take you seriously.

Excellent spellers usually lack any vision or common sense.

I know plenty of courses that are in the red, and they are killing it.

Ben Jarvis

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Re: Firm/Fast conditions at Cal Club and implications for Nor Cal Golf
« Reply #17 on: December 30, 2011, 04:48:35 PM »
Ben - very interesing on the fescue holding up in hot conditions. I wonder if it is a different strain than is used in British Isles? On the coast of Northern California, it rarely gets above 75 and is mostly between 60-75 so my guess it that the heat is not a major issue for fescue here.

Mitch,

I'm not sure whether it is a different strain of fescue. Our fescue plays softer than those found in the UK, simply because of cart traffic.

Our greens are a PennG2 Bent, while green surrounds are a mixture of fine fescue and couch. Our course is by the ocean and the Superintendent tells me that the PennG2 Bent has good salt tolerance.

Another course nearby (with similar weather patterns) that has fescue fairways and bent greens is the Moonah Course at The National.

I hope this helps.

Twitter: @BennyJarvis
Instagram: @bennyj08

Stewart Naugler

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Re: Firm/Fast conditions at Cal Club and implications for Nor Cal Golf
« Reply #18 on: December 31, 2011, 02:48:49 AM »
In my opinion, providing consistently fast and firm playing conditions greatly depends on what soils you have and more importantly, how you manage the moisture content in those soils. In my experience, it was much easier to do this when I worked in northern California, as we had very sandy soils with almost no rainfall in the summer months. In contrast, I've found it very difficult to provide these same conditions in the Midwest because of the heavier soils and sporadic downpours. To consistently provide these conditions on heavy soils, you'd have to keep that inch or two of thatch, roots, and soil dry, while maintaining a healthy turf stand. The only way to accomplish that is to have healthy, deep roots. Which then brings different turf grasses into the picture, as it is very difficult to get poa to deeply root in hot/humid conditions, while properly maintained bentgrass can produce the desired root depth. With that said, core aerating twice a year and sand topdressing fairways on a consistent basis, would really be the best way to produce firm and fast playing conditions on heavier soils. To me, sand topdressing and proper irrigation are really the keys to firm/fast conditions. A lot of golfers forget that we can't control rainfall amounts and sand can get real expensive when you're talking about topdressing fairways. I hope we're talking about fairways! If you can't produce fast and firm greens, you won't last very long in this business (in my opinion).

Please note that there are many other factors that play a role in providing fast and firm playing conditions. My Dad would argue that proper fertility is extremely important, I agree! When I was in turf school at MSU, fast and firm was taught in nearly every class. It's really become the talk of our industry and I know researchers at MSU are doing studies on rolling fairways, sand capping, and drought tolerant turfgrass varieties.

The bottom line is fast and firm is how the game is meant to be played.

It's funny that Dan posted on this thread, because he's probably the best "fast and firm" superintendent in the business. I agree with Dan too, this board is not meant to personally attack superintendents that can't defend themselves. I understand why you're passionate about the subject Joel, but there's other ways to get your message across. I know I'm nobody to you, I'm just asking you nicely to reconsider. I want our industry to become more educated about golf course architecture, post like this will turn off superintendents to Golf Club Atlas period.





« Last Edit: December 31, 2011, 03:05:14 AM by SNaugler »

Jim Tang

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Re: Firm/Fast conditions at Cal Club and implications for Nor Cal Golf
« Reply #19 on: December 31, 2011, 08:14:40 AM »
I think Erin Hills has fescue fairways and bent grass greens.  I remember it being an odd mix.

Sean Leary

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Re: Firm/Fast conditions at Cal Club and implications for Nor Cal Golf
« Reply #20 on: December 31, 2011, 12:06:37 PM »
Sagebrush in BC has fescue fairways and bent greens as well. Works very well there....

Stewart Naugler

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Re: Firm/Fast conditions at Cal Club and implications for Nor Cal Golf
« Reply #21 on: December 31, 2011, 03:04:58 PM »
To answer the question about the Cal Club grass types, the greens are a 50/50 mix of A1/A4 Bentgrass, the fairways are a blend of colonial bent and fine fescue, and the rough is straight fine fescue. They topdress the greens every week to every other week, with the same sand they built the greens with. They also keep the surface fast and firm by the way they fertilize, very little nitrogen and a lot of micro-nutrients, iron, etc. With using low amounts of nitrogen, they have much less organic matter accumulation. It's all about the thatch!

Great club and an outstanding superintendent.
« Last Edit: December 31, 2011, 07:23:21 PM by SNaugler »

Jay Flemma

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Re: Firm/Fast conditions at Cal Club and implications for Nor Cal Golf
« Reply #22 on: January 02, 2012, 01:28:24 PM »
Nice to see Kyle Phillips gets the props he deserves.  I wish he would build more designs in America.

On that note, I hear good things about Verdura...any one been there?
Mackenzie, MacRayBanks, Maxwell, Doak, Dye, Strantz. @JayGolfUSA, GNN Radio Host of Jay's Plays www.cybergolf.com/writerscorner