[Philippe Binette]

Who is the most courageous golf architect of all time ? Who took the boldest decisions ?

to get the discussion started, here's a bit from my blog

http://binettegolfarchitecture.blogspot.com/2011/12/courage-in-golf-course-architecture.html

[Mac Plumart]

Well, Dye was going to be my answer.  Pete Dye, however.

Desmond Muirhead probably needs to be up there as well.

Strantz deserves mention as well.

[Philippe Binette]

not overly familiar with strantz work... which decision could be an example... I guess the bowl at Tobacco Road, or maybe the entire course there !

[Mac Plumart]

Philippe...

I've only played two Strantz courses, so I am no expert.  But in my mind, this is Stranz at Tobacco Road...



His greens there seemed twisted to the point of being melted and not of this world.  Here is an approach shot into one of his greens there...

The false front looking ridge is maybe 15 feet high, but it isn't a true false front as there is another level-ish area at the bottom...so your ball isn't taken off the green like most false front's I've seen.

 

Furthermore, some of the bunkers he puts in play at Tobacco Road are massive.



I think this took courage and pushed the envelope in golf architecture.

I've also seen his work at Stonehouse.  And althoough Stonehouse isn't quite as artistic at Tobacco Road it is certainly bold and courageous.  Blind shots, out of context/proportion greens, bold bunkering, drop shots, etc.

[JNC Lyon]

Pete Dye has to be up there.  It takes a lot of guts to look at what the most renowned name in your profession doing, and then do the opposite.

Charles Blair MacDonald would also be right there at the top.  Copying all the of best holes from the British Isles on one course, then naming it "National Golf Links of America"? Pretty bold.  Also, from what I've read about the construction of courses like Yale and The Lido, MacDonald had a vision for building golf courses in extreme locations that only a couple of architects (notably Pete Dye) haven't had since.

Finally, going back even earlier, Old Tom Morris should be on any list.  It took great courage to build the manmade greens at St. Andrews (along with Allan Robertson) on holes 1, 17, and 18, and he also dared to play with and design for the modern golf ball.  Moreover, Old Tom Morris was the first architect to build courses in several different towns, and his work helped spread the game in the British Isles (this is something most people don't think about, because they are focused on how the game spread from the British Isles as opposed to within them).

[RJ_Daley]

Mac, great call on Strantz at Tobacco Road.   And, with consideration to Des Muirhead, one might think that the courageous efforts come from those archies with an affinity to the artistic skills and sensibilities.  I don't expect to see comparable courage from the soil engineering side of the craft of GCA.  I think it is the artist's temperament that is more likely to challenge conventional wisdom and put a new and courageous theme out there. 

Wasn't it Bill Ammick and perhaps a lineage to Diddel that had some unique and unconventional courageous ideas with designing smaller lot courses based on distance of the Cayman ball?  I forget, but some one of those older archies explored that, to no avail. 

Were some of the courageous ideas in GCA actually at the insistence of unique developers and movers and shakers of the movement, in their times, from Crump and Wilson, to Fownes; and in modern era, Youngscapp and Kaiser? 

[Sean_A]

I am gonna take the opposite approach.  To me, Fowler was incredibly bold because at a time when inland architecture was finding its feet and naturalism was all the rage, Fowler was not afraid to first allow the land to totally dictate the design.  However, he was also not afraid to employ very stark shaping and bunker work totally unlike the other big guns.  The result is Fowler's courses even nearly 100 years later, can not be pigeon-hole as of a style or recognizable as obviously his work.  Colt, Dr Mac, Park Jr, Simpson and Alison are much more alike and much more easily name plated than Fowler.  Even today, there has been no archie like Fowler - a total one-off.  That cannot be said for any other archie I know of.

Ciao

[Philippe Binette]

In the same line of  thought...

for architects:

what is, according to you, the boldest design decision you've made and why ? maybe something only you thought was going to work whie other were in doubt or some other reasons

[Greg Tallman]

All those who created something bold and out of the norm for their time:

Limiting this to my lifetime:

Pete Dye
Mike Strantz
Tom Doak


I do not inlcude Hanse as it is my view that he has, to some degree, rode the wave of others which is in no way is meant to take away from his talents as an architect.

Those listed basically said I am going to do it my way.

[Bob_Huntley]

COURAGE, mental or moral strength to venture, persevere, and withstand danger, fear, or difficulty.

I am reminded of a flowery passage in a golf report of a long ago US Open. The writer went on to say of Curtiss Strange how he had the courage to overcome a missed shot or something like it. In a subsquent issue of Sports Illustrated Randall 'Tex' Cobb said courage is when you get off the floor having been hit with a left hook from Earnie Shavers and fight on.

Placing a tree at the corner of a dog-leg does not denote courage.

Bob

[Philippe Binette]

of course courage is relative... I'm not trying to turn golf architects into war heroes.

and courage doesn't also lead automatically to dramatic design... leaving a green bunkerless and seemingly featureless needs courage

[Jeff_Mingay]

Penguin,

How about Colonel S.V. Hotchkin at Woodhall Spa? It would take some courage to build those bunkers, most places, these days!

[John Mayhugh]

Placing a tree at the corner of a dog-leg does not denote courage.

When you put it that way.....

Agreed that risk taking or bold is a much better description.  Sean makes interesting points about Fowler's work.  In my brief exposure, I concur that he is a tough one to pigeonhole.  That would seem to make it riskier talking with potential clients as they couldn't be real sure what the product would be like.

[archie_struthers]

 

Are we talking taking risks artistically , or risking it all LOL!

[Carl Rogers]

I recommend Royal New Kent.  In some ways wilder than TR, but not as coherent a routing, particularly on the back nine.

Does "courage" in this context start with the rejecton of the same old same old?  I contend some of the success of Strantz was due to its different to be different (as much as the courage to be different).  Would you really want to play a Strantz course everyday?  I like both of them, but do not want a steady diet of them.  In the Pinehurst golf context, the TR experience is a brilliant counterpoint.

[Ronald Montesano]

I don't think that courage applies to anything less than risking one's life.

the riskiest, the boldest, the brashest...those are terms I might apply to the architects cited here.

I would say that WJTravis was pretty brash in his day, as was Dr. Mac...in a totally contradictory way, so was RTJ Senior.

[Dan Kelly]

I suggest "audacity" (or, if you prefer, "audaciousness").

[Ronald Montesano]

Yes, Dan, indeed...better than any of my suggestions and fits Paul Pete Dye perfectly, as well as Strantz. Don't know if I'd call Doak audacious, although others might. Audacity suggests riskiness that worked.

[Ian Andrew]

It takes a lot of guts to look at what the most renowned name in your profession doing, and then do the opposite.

I would suggest the word guts be replaced with intelligence.
The next great thing generally comes from a reaction against what is popular, not by going with the crowd.

[Mac Plumart]

What about Schmidt-Curley?

Stone Forest looks unique and took some courage/audacity to develop...as well as some of their other Chinesse courses.

[Jeff_Mingay]

Ian,

One of my favourite quotes, which I've used in an article on the subject you bring up...

No artists are part of a movement unless they are followers. And then they are unnecessary and doing unnecessary art. If they are exploring an 'individual way' with 'different ideas' the idea of another individual, they are making a worthy contribution, but as soon as they call themselves followers or accept the truths they have not explored as truths, they are defeating the purpose of art as an individual expression. - Keith Haring.

[Philippe Binette]

so Jeff, who are the real artists, and who are the followers !!!.

once again, for architects, what is the boldest decision you've taken on the design of a hole / course ?

[Ronald Montesano]

Muirhead was crazy audacious...think about the Jaws/Jason hole at Stone Harbor here



The Sangreal in Japan



The Mermaid at Aberdeen



Audacious? Yes. Trend-setting? No.

[Tim Nugent]

once again, for architects, what is the boldest decision you've taken on the design of a hole / course ?

Boldest? well i guess it would be to turn several different kinds to landfills into a high-end course with not just 18 but 36 holes knowing that there was no topsoil available only salt-laiden sewage sludge, 2 governmental bodies were fighting it out in court and we would need to somehow get a permit to drain and excavate clay to close the landfill from a lake that was directly connected to Lake Michigan and get permission to draw irrigation water from Lake Miichigan. Also somehow get potable water and sewage connections from the other side of a major 8 lane Interstate Highway. All this in one of the poorest areas of the South Side of Chicago (meaning that the players would have to come from outside the typical surrounding radius).

Sometimes the boldest decision is the one that says "sure, we can solve all the problems and make a successful golf course here".

As for the most courage, and I will use courage, I have to go with Desmond.  He tried to tke GCA down a path and failed.  That pretty much ended his career.  Any time an architect steps out of the comfort zone of the tried and true, he risks his livelihood.  If he gains a following, he's a genius, if not, a foolish, eccentric kook. And the tastes of the golfing public are fickle.

[Michael Goldstein]

It took Bill Coore courage to build his new course at Shanqin Bay. The 'rules' around golf courses in China are very rigid and he broke many of them. 

Even in the worldwide context of modern golf course design his inclusion of an Alps hole was brave.  In China it was extremely courageous.

On the whole I think that architects aren't courageous enough.  I was at a site recently with a really unique feature and, rather than incorporate it into a really cool, quirky and memorable hole, the architect is playing it safe with a hole that I've seen hundreds of times before. 

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