News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


Mac Plumart

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: How do we shrink the game?
« Reply #50 on: December 28, 2011, 04:46:13 PM »
Carl...I think you bring up some great points.  For the golfer, times might actually be pretty good right now.
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Kris Shreiner

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: How do we shrink the game?
« Reply #51 on: December 28, 2011, 10:56:23 PM »
Niall,

I apologize for the typo that did not originally have the "c" in centuries. I'm sure with that in there you can appreciate what role caddie golf has had in the emergence of golf, and their sustained contributions in the Scottish game throughout its long history. That was one point in a sea of others that clealy shows where the game, globally, has lost its way.



When folks are proposing a floating golf course in the Maldives, and a "Play it Forward" initiative ( ie. get on the right F#%'n tee common sense) is being hailed as a masterstroke...what more proof does one need.

Carl , Lou and Mac,

As you all heartily confirm, EXTRACTION opportunites have never been better! Does that equate to sound health for the game at present?


Cheers,
Kris 8)



« Last Edit: December 28, 2011, 11:03:42 PM by Kris Shreiner »
"I said in a talk at the Dunhill Tournament in St. Andrews a few years back that I thought any of the caddies I'd had that week would probably make a good golf course architect. We all want to ask golfers of all abilities to get more out of their games -caddies do that for a living." T.Doak

Lou_Duran

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: How do we shrink the game?
« Reply #52 on: December 29, 2011, 09:21:51 AM »
Carl , Lou and Mac,

As you all heartily confirm, EXTRACTION opportunites have never been better! Does that equate to sound health for the game at present?

Cheers,
Kris 8)

I have no idea what this means.

Jeff_Brauer

  • Total Karma: 1
Re: How do we shrink the game?
« Reply #53 on: December 29, 2011, 09:45:40 AM »
Lou,

We don't shrink it, we transfer some of it, and grow it as a subset of golfers going to Top Golf or similar golf substitutes, or as it will be come to be known, "versions."

Think about it - Precedence - Japan.  Convenience - takes away the negatives of time, investment, too much land, water, etc. (society views, not mine!) and leaves the essence of the game - hitting the ball well, friendly competition via computer chips in the balls measuring results, etc.  It eliminates intimidation.  It removes carts in favor of lounge chairs between shots!  And adds in upscale food and beverage, reduces embarrassment, etc.

It is amazing how popular Top Golf is with non traditional golfers - last time I was there, a group of six Indian women in Sari's was there, sans husbands.  I don't know if it was a coupon deal or what, but they were hooping and hollering as much as anyone.  Also saw many groups of young single women, African American teenagers, etc.  For them, it also removes the intimidation factor of golf.

Instead of shrinking or growing, I think some out of the box thinking like Top Golf, which in many ways is an update of "date night" at the driving range to rearrange golf for modern times is a more likely occurance.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Joe Sponcia

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: How do we shrink the game?
« Reply #54 on: December 30, 2011, 09:58:28 PM »
Gentlemen,

Interesting and thoughtful read, especially the side bar about how Tennis...Tennis of all things is growing (!?!?!?!?!), yet at Private clubs throughout the country, the Tennis Operation typically loses 25-50k pretty easily per year?

Are there too many golf courses?  When golfnow.com advertises $19-24 rounds at courses that just got built a few years ago for several million dollars...I think we have our answer.

But...when you look at the struggling private and public clubs across the country, they have few things in common with their "classic-designed" counterparts:

1.  Too much mowable turf doubles maintenance costs.
2.  Almost unwalkable due to the "you'll feel like your the only one on the course as you enjoy our spacious....blah blah blah".  Giant, spacious golf courses even with a cart on an empty day takes 4.5 hours to play as a twosome.
3.  The love affair clubs have with five star restaurants that loses 100-150k per $700k sold.  
4.  And continuing on this theme is the math:  Restaurant 100k loser + Tennis 40k loser + Pool 25k loser....= Loser.

We need more golf clubs and less Restaurants with an 18 hole golf course.
« Last Edit: December 30, 2011, 10:01:44 PM by Joe Sponcia »
Joe


"If the hole is well designed, a fairway can't be too wide".

- Mike Nuzzo

Malcolm Mckinnon

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: How do we shrink the game?
« Reply #55 on: December 30, 2011, 10:42:13 PM »
To Mike Young/Tom Doak,

Can I interest you guys in a career switch to textile manufacturing? After 12 miserable years we may have found rock bottom already.

Why ride on the Titanic when Alvin (the Submarine) is perfectly comfortable and serviceable.

Jud_T

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: How do we shrink the game?
« Reply #56 on: December 31, 2011, 07:46:07 AM »
Just thinking aloud here but I wonder if the real estate market stabilizes at some point in the next couple years if that helps at all.  I know there's still too many existing RE courses for there to be much new building but at least in terms of guys being able to refinance existing clubs or buy out underwater clubs and have a better idea of cash flow projections etc.. I would think that a bottoming process in the RE market should lead to at least some stability in a large segment of the golf market.  It all sort of goes hand in hand.  Real estate market clears and stabilizes, financial markets stabilize, employment and economy stabilizes, people have more confidence in the stability of employment and are willing to buy homes, join clubs, etc.  This doesn't address the broader issues of the game addressed above, i.e. the time and money involved, inclusion of women and children, etc., but knowing where the bottom of the barrel is would undoubtedly be a good first step...
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Mike_Young

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: How do we shrink the game?
« Reply #57 on: December 31, 2011, 10:29:18 AM »
Jud,
If RE does stabilize  I still don't see new golf.
If you can buy existing golf ready to play for $500,000 why would people be willing to build new when the new will cost them around 4-5 mill before they tee the first ball?  That is at least a $500,000 per year difference in debt payment vs. the guy down the street with none.  The one line item that will definitely not be in profitable golf courses in the future is debt service. JMO
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Jud_T

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: How do we shrink the game?
« Reply #58 on: December 31, 2011, 11:04:03 AM »
Mike,

I'm sure you're right.  But imagine a guy considering buying a failing club in need of some renovation work.  This is where the rubber may hit the road once there's a firmer bottom underfoot than the quicksand we've experienced the past 4 years...
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak