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Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Merion "softens" the pitch of the 12th and 15th greens
« Reply #50 on: December 28, 2011, 09:49:41 AM »
Guys this entire thing is still all about the money.  Golf is just the vehicle.  Remember when bowl games did not have sponsors?  Or baseball stadium weren't named after beer companies?  Why would golf remain any different?  These things just help to justify expertise to the majority of the golf world and you will not change that.  Just look at Green committees and how they decide things.   ;)
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Dan Boerger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Merion "softens" the pitch of the 12th and 15th greens
« Reply #51 on: December 28, 2011, 09:51:11 AM »
Fully agree that a private club can/should do whatever it wants to their course. They took the risk, they pay the bills, good for them.

Merion members, IMO, have been great stewards of the course and club. I've played there plenty of times, and always walk away impressed with the quality and variety of shots needed and the conditioning of the course. Absolutely world class.

Soften the green at #12? Good by me ... more than once I've been above the hole only to putt as softly as possible and the fringe was the only thing that stopped my ball. That slope at those green speeds seems too much for me. (I know ... DON'T get above the hole.) I even recall someone putting out of bounds in major championship play on that hole.
 
"Man should practice moderation in all things, including moderation."  Mark Twain

PCCraig

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Merion "softens" the pitch of the 12th and 15th greens
« Reply #52 on: December 28, 2011, 09:53:51 AM »
Guys this entire thing is still all about the money.  Golf is just the vehicle.  Remember when bowl games did not have sponsors?  Or baseball stadium weren't named after beer companies?  Why would golf remain any different?  These things just help to justify expertise to the majority of the golf world and you will not change that.  Just look at Green committees and how they decide things.   ;)

Mike,

This doesn't make any sense. How is softening a few greens at Merion have anything to do with "following the money??" Sure, the USGA pays Merion a host's fee...but that isn't that much, even to a old line club like Merion. The USGA is taking a huge hit on this particular event as it will be much smaller in scale due to the logistics of the site. So if it was "all about the money" they wouldn't even be at Merion in the first place.

H.P.S.

Phil McDade

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Merion "softens" the pitch of the 12th and 15th greens
« Reply #53 on: December 28, 2011, 10:46:25 AM »
Chip (and others who might know who have worked w/ the USGA on these things):

How much of the changes on 12 and 15 are necessitated by the USGA's "six pins" strategy of wanting to have six different pin locations on every green (four for each day of the championship, plus two for practice to eliminate foot traffic on tourney days)? I recall reading about this (Feinstein?) during the contorversy re. Meeks and the 18th at the Olympic Club, which in effect forced the USGA to put a pin position on a section of the 18th green that would lead to the possibility of what happened to Payne Stewart -- the putt that never stopped rolling. Does the softening of the two greens at Merion include more pin positions? Or is it mainly to eliminate steep slopes at USGA Open speeds?

Mike Hendren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Merion "softens" the pitch of the 12th and 15th greens
« Reply #54 on: December 28, 2011, 10:50:21 AM »
I blame Hootie.

Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Merion "softens" the pitch of the 12th and 15th greens
« Reply #55 on: December 28, 2011, 10:57:37 AM »
Guys this entire thing is still all about the money.  Golf is just the vehicle.  Remember when bowl games did not have sponsors?  Or baseball stadium weren't named after beer companies?  Why would golf remain any different?  These things just help to justify expertise to the majority of the golf world and you will not change that.  Just look at Green committees and how they decide things.   ;)

Mike,

This doesn't make any sense. How is softening a few greens at Merion have anything to do with "following the money??" Sure, the USGA pays Merion a host's fee...but that isn't that much, even to a old line club like Merion. The USGA is taking a huge hit on this particular event as it will be much smaller in scale due to the logistics of the site. So if it was "all about the money" they wouldn't even be at Merion in the first place.



Pat,
I'm not speaking of the softening of the greens.  I'm speaking of the overall issues that brought us to a point where the greens need to be softened in the first place.  I sort of feel like you in that I don't have that big of an issue with the USGA if they would just do what they initially set out to do.  But the outside commercial interest that influence the game have penetrated the governing body.  When the USGA speaks, committees all over the country listen.  So it's huge money when the USGA suggest a product or procedure.  There will be a significant amount of green slope reduction done because it was justifierd to do it at Merion.  JMO  there will be clubs hwere the putting greens become part of the back tee on some holes and anything else that happens in order to increase the length of a shorter course.  And of course the golf equipment companies will be selling the hell out of the new 300 yard three woods " for narrow fairways" on the longer "short" courses.  JMO
« Last Edit: December 28, 2011, 10:59:20 AM by Mike_Young »
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Tim Martin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Merion "softens" the pitch of the 12th and 15th greens
« Reply #56 on: December 28, 2011, 02:24:43 PM »
Guys this entire thing is still all about the money.  Golf is just the vehicle.  Remember when bowl games did not have sponsors?  Or baseball stadium weren't named after beer companies?  Why would golf remain any different?  These things just help to justify expertise to the majority of the golf world and you will not change that.  Just look at Green committees and how they decide things.   ;)

Mike,

This doesn't make any sense. How is softening a few greens at Merion have anything to do with "following the money??" Sure, the USGA pays Merion a host's fee...but that isn't that much, even to a old line club like Merion. The USGA is taking a huge hit on this particular event as it will be much smaller in scale due to the logistics of the site. So if it was "all about the money" they wouldn't even be at Merion in the first place.



Pat -When you find out how much the USGA comes out in the red let me know. ;) Regardless of how many short the gate is as compared to other venues I`m sure they will do just fine.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2011, 02:31:41 PM by Tim Martin »

Howard Riefs

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Merion "softens" the pitch of the 12th and 15th greens
« Reply #57 on: December 28, 2011, 03:05:58 PM »
Here's a good article from the Star Ledger about how the challenges that "traditional clubs" face in landing the U.S. Open.  

http://www.nj.com/golf/index.ssf/2011/06/us_open_legendary_golf_clubs_a.html

According to the piece, Merion bent over backward to stay in the USGA's good graces after the 1989 Amateur "flopped."  The club didn't want to "slip into the next tier" of clubs to not host another US Open.  (Of course, whether they slip into the next tier post-2013 is another issue.)  


It was sometime in early 1990, after the U.S. Amateur flopped at a fading Merion Golf Club, that Bill Iredale was worried the end was coming. ... The relationship between the venerable club, located in the well-heeled Main Line of suburban Philadelphia, and the USGA had frosted. Merion wanted to host another U.S. Open, but the USGA — having seen the poor condition of the course and how short the yardage was — declined. It would take its national championship elsewhere.

“Merion was about three months from losing its seat at the table ... At some clubs, I don’t think they care about having a seat at the table. But I knew that by having the Amateur, the Walker Cup and the Open in the span of 8 years, it sets us up for the next 25 years. And not slipping into the next tier.”



Merion's  Championship Committee Chairman Bill Iredale says the club had to “Go to (the USGA) with our hat in our hands.” From that, I'd infer that any design changes to the course were on the table for the USGA.


« Last Edit: December 28, 2011, 03:12:33 PM by Howard Riefs »
"Golf combines two favorite American pastimes: Taking long walks and hitting things with a stick."  ~P.J. O'Rourke

Dan Herrmann

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Merion "softens" the pitch of the 12th and 15th greens
« Reply #58 on: December 29, 2011, 09:21:08 AM »
In my opinion, leave the course alone.

For crying out loud, it's on the National Register of Historical Places....

ChipOat

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Merion "softens" the pitch of the 12th and 15th greens
« Reply #59 on: December 29, 2011, 11:04:10 AM »
Don Mahaffey:

I don't know whether those the steep pitch of those greens would have been softened w/o a U.S. Open on the calendar.  Either way, I think it's a good thing and I hope it isn't "undone" afterwards.

Pat Mucci:

I'm not obliged to post anything, at all (ever), and I am certainly not obliged to "knee-jerk defend" anything with which I don't already agree.  In those cases where I'm not in agreement, I do the proper thing and remain silent as GCA is a public forum.  Also, "softened" does mean "less steep" although, to me, the word "flattened", while technically not incorrect, infers something more substantial in terms of what was actually done.

Phil McDade:

I don't know the exact rationale, but since it is public knowledge that the USGA paid for it, one can't help but draw a conclusion based on that.  Whatever, I repeat my hope that those particular amendments remain forever.

Dan Hermann:

I believe that the NRHP has nothing to do with the quality golf architecture.  Also, while many clubs' attempts at improvement often end with controversial results, to "leave a course alone" guarantees that 1) "a sporty layout" will be the course's permanent future and 2) maturing trees will, over time, inevitably, damage both the architecture on the ground and the air/light requirements for good turf.

Think about all the excellent amendments that William Flynn made to Merion from 19twenty-something through WWII.  Do you believe he should have left the original East Course "as is"?  I don't.

Bradley Anderson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Merion "softens" the pitch of the 12th and 15th greens
« Reply #60 on: December 30, 2011, 01:51:23 PM »
This new Tru-Firm gadget that measures putting green firmness has been around for a couple years now and the data that has been complied at clubs which host a professional tournament every year is now indicating that green speed has almost no impact on professional scoring, but firmness is what really separates the pack.

Softening putting contours to add a foot or so of uniform roll to the greens will probably not make any significant difference in the event. The real difficulty, as far as greens go, will certainly be determined by the weather and by how firm those greens get, not by how fast they are.

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Merion "softens" the pitch of the 12th and 15th greens
« Reply #61 on: December 30, 2011, 02:00:49 PM »
Here's hoping they get a dry lead-in to the tournament.

Dan Herrmann

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Merion "softens" the pitch of the 12th and 15th greens
« Reply #62 on: January 01, 2012, 10:43:34 AM »
Chip  -  Tom Fazio is no William Flynn.

Terry Lavin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Merion "softens" the pitch of the 12th and 15th greens
« Reply #63 on: January 02, 2012, 10:01:54 AM »
Chip  -  Tom Fazio is no William Flynn.

I'm betting Flynn would know how to follow "orders".  I can't imagine that he would stand in the way of the club's desire to host our national championship.
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Merion "softens" the pitch of the 12th and 15th greens
« Reply #64 on: January 02, 2012, 10:39:01 AM »

I'm not obliged to post anything, at all (ever), and I am certainly not obliged to "knee-jerk defend" anything with which I don't already agree.  In those cases where I'm not in agreement, I do the proper thing and remain silent as GCA is a public forum.  Also, "softened" does mean "less steep" although, to me, the word "flattened", while technically not incorrect, infers something more substantial in terms of what was actually done.


Chip,

Once you create/start a thread there are obligations which would appear to be innate.
To a degree you forfeited your silence when you initiated this thread, understanding that the forum you chose to announce the changes/softening/flattening is a "public discussion group".

While I may have begun my college education as a science major, I have a pretty good understanding of the English language.

In the context of reducing contour and/or slope on putting surfaces in order to accommodate increased green speeds, the word "flattening" is appropriate.  You can try to "soften" what you perceive as a harsh description of the process, but the reality is that marvelous greens at Merion, WFW and PV have been flattened in order to accommodate increased green speeds.

It's a terribly dangerous act and trend because of two factors.
The reduction and/or removal of character of/in the greens, the distinct design which made these greens so special, and the destructive natural progression of the process as green speeds increase

 


JNC Lyon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Merion "softens" the pitch of the 12th and 15th greens
« Reply #65 on: January 02, 2012, 10:46:36 AM »
Chip  -  Tom Fazio is no William Flynn.

At least someone understands this.  It's like hiring Thomas Kinkade to restore the Mona Lisa.
"That's why Oscar can't see that!" - Philip E. "Timmy" Thomas

Dan Herrmann

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Merion "softens" the pitch of the 12th and 15th greens
« Reply #66 on: January 03, 2012, 10:27:20 AM »
John - problem is that some folks like Kinkade  (I feel nausea when I see this stuff, but it sure does sell):

Terry Lavin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Merion "softens" the pitch of the 12th and 15th greens
« Reply #67 on: January 03, 2012, 10:37:28 AM »
Chip  -  Tom Fazio is no William Flynn.

At least someone understands this.  It's like hiring Thomas Kinkade to restore the Mona Lisa.

Maybe Fazio ain't no Flynn if you're a classicist of some stripe, but he is a great architect and he has forgotten more about golf course architecture than 99% of the posters on this site.
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

Dan Herrmann

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Merion "softens" the pitch of the 12th and 15th greens
« Reply #68 on: January 03, 2012, 10:55:25 AM »
Terry,
I can't paint either, but I'd much rather have a great artist than Mr. Kinkade.   I personally put Tom Fazio in the Rees Jones camp.  I don't like their work, but obviously the boys at the USGA feel differently.   Which is usually fine, but I sure wouldn't make the Fazio changes to Merion.

For example, the new back tee at 14 is a joke.  IIRC, it requires a shot over a stop sign and a ball flight out of bounds.  The only thing missing is the auto ball return after you putt out.  (yes, I'm hyping the situation, but the new tee IS a travesty)

Keeping this on-topic, the 12th and 15th greens are fine as-is.  Just slow down the darn green speeds!

PS - Patrick Mucci stated it perfectly a few posts up.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2012, 10:57:54 AM by Dan Herrmann »

Terry Lavin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Merion "softens" the pitch of the 12th and 15th greens
« Reply #69 on: January 03, 2012, 12:27:01 PM »
Terry,
I can't paint either, but I'd much rather have a great artist than Mr. Kinkade.   I personally put Tom Fazio in the Rees Jones camp.  I don't like their work, but obviously the boys at the USGA feel differently.   Which is usually fine, but I sure wouldn't make the Fazio changes to Merion.

For example, the new back tee at 14 is a joke.  IIRC, it requires a shot over a stop sign and a ball flight out of bounds.  The only thing missing is the auto ball return after you putt out.  (yes, I'm hyping the situation, but the new tee IS a travesty)

Keeping this on-topic, the 12th and 15th greens are fine as-is.  Just slow down the darn green speeds!

PS - Patrick Mucci stated it perfectly a few posts up.

I hear you, Dan, but if they slowed the speeds, there'd be all sorts of whining about that.  And if they decided to slow the speeds on just a couple greens, there would be whining about that choice, like we heard at Southern Hills.  As for Fazio, I'm not saying everybody has to be a fan of his work, but a little respect might be a better way of approaching criticizing his selection.  He has, after all, designed plenty of courses and has done plenty of renovation work, even if it doesn't suit one's individual taste.  If Doak, Young or the other real architects want to criticize his work, I would say they have the experience and the gravitas to be harsh.  Not the rest of us.
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Merion "softens" the pitch of the 12th and 15th greens
« Reply #70 on: January 03, 2012, 12:47:02 PM »
Dan & Terry,

Fazio, or any architect, is merely the instrument of the club, hired to do the Club's bidding.

Fazio has not been given a free hand to do whatever he wants at Merion.

For those criticizing Fazio, I would offer the "Short Course at Pine Valley" as an example of his work.
It's pretty impressive.

But again, he wasn't given a free hand.

ChipOat

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Merion "softens" the pitch of the 12th and 15th greens
« Reply #71 on: January 03, 2012, 01:09:11 PM »
Pat Mucci:

You are correct that marvelous greens at those courses have been made less steep to accommodate faster speeds than they were designed for (sorry about the preposition).  Since I believe that the faster speeds have made these greens become "FORMERLY marvelous", and since I also believe that any efforts to reduce the "Stimp" at any top course will be temporary at best, I'm afraid that we don't agree on the merits of what has happened at WFW, PV and now, Merion.  I can think of two other courses that we both know and love where several of their greens would now benefit from the same selective "softening".  I wouldn't have said that ten years ago about either one (or Merion, either).

Dan Hermann:

I cannot imagine that the Stop Sign on #14 won't be removed for all championships as there is no vehicle traffic on Golf House Road during such tournaments.  If the local authorities don't grant permission to do so, that will be unfortunate.

Also, you're entitled to your opinion, but I think "travesty" is more than a little over the top.  The tour players' best line off the tee at TOC's Road Hole (across OB property) has been lauded and romanticized for over 100 years by Darwin, et al.  What's so bad about the same thing at Merion's #14?  I do think that the new tee box could stand to be elevated just a bit, but if that's the worst thing to say about it, how bad can it really be?

Finally, as I've said several times on this thread (including this post), the best solution (slow down the greens) is, unfortunately, not going to be adhered to properly, if at all, anywhere.  Thus, as in so many things in life, a less desirable fix becomes the only answer that will really stick.  Regrettable, but, alas, true.

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Merion "softens" the pitch of the 12th and 15th greens
« Reply #72 on: January 03, 2012, 01:14:18 PM »
I never liked Kinkade until I read this little piece about him on Wikipedia under Personal Conduct:

The Los Angeles Times has reported that some of Kinkade's former colleagues, employees, and even collectors of his work say that he has a long history of cursing and heckling other artists and performers. The Times further reported that he openly groped a woman's breasts at a South Bend, Indiana sales event, and mentioned his proclivity for ritual territory marking through urination, once relieving himself on a Winnie the Pooh figure at the Disneyland Hotel in Anaheim while saying "This one’s for you, Walt."[24][25] In a letter to licensed gallery owners acknowledging he may have behaved badly during a stressful time when he overindulged in food and drink, Kinkade said accounts of the alcohol-related incidents included "exaggerated, and in some cases outright fabricated personal accusations." The letter did not address any incident specifically. [25]
In 2006 John Dandois, Media Arts Group executive, recounted a story that on one occasion ("about six years ago") Kinkade became drunk at a Siegfried & Roy magic show in Las Vegas and began shouting "Codpiece! Codpiece!" at the performers. Eventually he was calmed by his mother.[24] Dandois also said of Kinkade, "Thom would be fine, he would be drinking, and then all of a sudden, you couldn't tell where the boundary was, and then he became very incoherent, and he would start cussing and doing a lot of weird stuff."[24] On 11 June 2010, Kinkade was arrested in Carmel, California on suspicion of driving while under the influence of alcohol.[26]

A link to the entire article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Kinkade

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Merion "softens" the pitch of the 12th and 15th greens
« Reply #73 on: January 03, 2012, 02:04:41 PM »
Chip,

I think the real dilema lies within the realm of understanding contour and slope.

Not all greens are contoured and sloped, but, for those that are, increased speeds seem to have become a mandated progression.

The problem is, if a course has 14 greens absent substantive contour, they're going to want them putting at maximum speeds.

This leads to the dilema, what to do with the other 4 greens, whose contours/slopes create putting nightmares at the higher speeds.

The answer, according to the book of Pine Valley, Merion, Winged Foot West and others, is to soften/flatten those greens.

What the powers that be fail to realize is that greens aren't JUST about putting, they're about approach and recovery as well, and when you soften/flatten a green, you compromise the architect's intended challenge on the approach and recovery, along with his intended challenge on the contoured/sloped greens.

TEPaul, that idiot/savant, got it right on this issue.
I know that's hard for most to believe, but, it's true.
His concept, probably a concept he borrowed or stole from a more enlightened golfer, was to determine the speed at which your most severe green would function as intended, and then, mow ALL of your greens to that height.

That might have a negative impact at many of the greens at Stillwell Park, but, it's a valid, if not THE valid solution to the problem, at PV, WFW and Merion.

Squeezing the distinctive life out of your putting surfaces is an enormous mistake.
A process that can only lead to mediocrity.

Imagine if you will, grasses that can be maintained on a daily basis at speeds of 16.
What will happen to those wonderful greens with contour and/or slope ?

They'll become extinct.

Hollywood and Mountain Ridge, both in NJ, have the most unique, interesting greens you'll ever see.
They present enormous challenge on the approach and recovery.
And, with the possible exception of # 8 at Hollywood and # 3 at Mountain Ridge, present a very challenging putting experience.

I'm not familiar with the daily speeds at Hollywood, but, Mountain Ridge probably strives for about 12 on a daily basis.
Anything greater creates problems.

If the golfing universe moved toward 16 as a daily speed, would elements within those clubs suggest softening/flattening ?
You bet they would.
But, what a terrible mistake that would be.

If PV, Merion and WFW never held a prestigious tournament, would those clubs have flattened their greens ?
I doubt it, so those clubs, architecturally, have sold elements of their architectural soul to speed.

I was recalling how much fun I had playing golf when I was young, in the 50's and 60's, and do you know what ?
I never recalled being unhappy with the speed of the greens.
I played Pinehurst # 2, Seminole, Baltusrol, Mountain Ridge, Ridgewood, Winged Foot, Quaker Ridge, Shinnecock, NGLA, Hollywood, Canoe Brook, Forest Hills, Montclair, Essex County, The Knoll, Glen Ridge, Braidburn and many other courses, and not once did I ever consider that the greens were too slow.

If I traveled back in time, by today's standards, those greens in the 50's and 60's would be very slow, but, only when compared to today's green speeds.

SO, WILL WE BE SAYING THE SAME THING IN 20, 30, 40 OR 50 YEARS, WHEN GREENSPEEDS ARE 16 ?

AND, IF THEY ARE 16, WILL THERE BE ANY REMNANTS OF THE GREENS WE SO DEARLY TREASURE TODAY ?

Read Arthur Weber's treatise on green speeds and slopes.

It's alarming.

If anything, to the astute reader,  it warns of the need to flatten greens as speeds increase.

The other problem I have, is that the PV's, WFW's and Merions set and example for the local clubs of the country as a third party influence.   The arguement at the committee and board level will be, If PV, WFW and Merion flattened their greens, then we can flatten ours.

As much as I love PV, WFW and Merion, the flattening the greens at WFW, PV and Merion has sent out the worst possible signal to the rest of the golfing world.

End of rant ;D

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Merion "softens" the pitch of the 12th and 15th greens
« Reply #74 on: January 03, 2012, 03:09:33 PM »
Chip,

I think the real dilema lies within the realm of understanding contour and slope.

Not all greens are contoured and sloped, but, for those that are, increased speeds seem to have become a mandated progression.

The problem is, if a course has 14 greens absent substantive contour, they're going to want them putting at maximum speeds.

This leads to the dilema, what to do with the other 4 greens, whose contours/slopes create putting nightmares at the higher speeds.

The answer, according to the book of Pine Valley, Merion, Winged Foot West and others, is to soften/flatten those greens.

What the powers that be fail to realize is that greens aren't JUST about putting, they're about approach and recovery as well, and when you soften/flatten a green, you compromise the architect's intended challenge on the approach and recovery, along with his intended challenge on the contoured/sloped greens.

TEPaul, that idiot/savant, got it right on this issue.
I know that's hard for most to believe, but, it's true.
His concept, probably a concept he borrowed or stole from a more enlightened golfer, was to determine the speed at which your most severe green would function as intended, and then, mow ALL of your greens to that height.

That might have a negative impact at many of the greens at Stillwell Park, but, it's a valid, if not THE valid solution to the problem, at PV, WFW and Merion.

Squeezing the distinctive life out of your putting surfaces is an enormous mistake.
A process that can only lead to mediocrity.

Imagine if you will, grasses that can be maintained on a daily basis at speeds of 16.
What will happen to those wonderful greens with contour and/or slope ?

They'll become extinct.

Hollywood and Mountain Ridge, both in NJ, have the most unique, interesting greens you'll ever see.
They present enormous challenge on the approach and recovery.
And, with the possible exception of # 8 at Hollywood and # 3 at Mountain Ridge, present a very challenging putting experience.

I'm not familiar with the daily speeds at Hollywood, but, Mountain Ridge probably strives for about 12 on a daily basis.
Anything greater creates problems.

If the golfing universe moved toward 16 as a daily speed, would elements within those clubs suggest softening/flattening ?
You bet they would.
But, what a terrible mistake that would be.

If PV, Merion and WFW never held a prestigious tournament, would those clubs have flattened their greens ?
I doubt it, so those clubs, architecturally, have sold elements of their architectural soul to speed.

I was recalling how much fun I had playing golf when I was young, in the 50's and 60's, and do you know what ?
I never recalled being unhappy with the speed of the greens.
I played Pinehurst # 2, Seminole, Baltusrol, Mountain Ridge, Ridgewood, Winged Foot, Quaker Ridge, Shinnecock, NGLA, Hollywood, Canoe Brook, Forest Hills, Montclair, Essex County, The Knoll, Glen Ridge, Braidburn and many other courses, and not once did I ever consider that the greens were too slow.

If I traveled back in time, by today's standards, those greens in the 50's and 60's would be very slow, but, only when compared to today's green speeds.

SO, WILL WE BE SAYING THE SAME THING IN 20, 30, 40 OR 50 YEARS, WHEN GREENSPEEDS ARE 16 ?

AND, IF THEY ARE 16, WILL THERE BE ANY REMNANTS OF THE GREENS WE SO DEARLY TREASURE TODAY ?

Read Arthur Weber's treatise on green speeds and slopes.

It's alarming.

If anything, to the astute reader,  it warns of the need to flatten greens as speeds increase.

The other problem I have, is that the PV's, WFW's and Merions set and example for the local clubs of the country as a third party influence.   The arguement at the committee and board level will be, If PV, WFW and Merion flattened their greens, then we can flatten ours.

As much as I love PV, WFW and Merion, the flattening the greens at WFW, PV and Merion has sent out the worst possible signal to the rest of the golfing world.

End of rant ;D


+1

This post should be framed and put in the locker room of every club with imaginative greens.
Particularly the part about greens being designed for more than just putting.
Often, to maintain a target speed, greens have to be softer to allow enough moisture to keep  grass mowed that low alive(bent grass in the south).
Additionally, as slopes are reduced to make areas pinnable, angles matter less and less.

Give me slower, firm, and enough  contour to make downhill putts fast, sidehill putts interesting, and angles to matter----and you've got the beginnings of an interesting course.

Slow greens can produces FAST putts if designed properly and approached poorly.
More skill is required on slower greens as uphill vs. downhill  slope changes speed exponentially on a slower green vs. one that is fast both directions.
Put the worst of both worlds together (soft, fast, unsloped greens) and the need for strategy is greatly eliminated.
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

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