[Ed Brzezowski]

For what it is worth a friend who belongs there told me those in the know say that the greens were built on inferior ground and that the ground was moving downhill. Is it possible for the foundation/ substrate/ or whatever the correct name for the base is could move??? Does gravity effect older greens? Can they 'slip" downhill?

From what I saw two weeks ago the rennovations are very minor to these two greens. My guess is that the membership is happier with the modifications.

[jeffwarne]

Is there enough work out there for anyone to be considered the "hottest" architect in the game?

less cold.....

[jeffwarne]

The thing I think is funny is that the hobbyist crowd thinks it is smarter than the USGA when it comes to questions like this. I'll listen to Doak's carefully worded lamentation, but the rest of the hand wringing is a tad comical. Merion wants the event; the USGA wants the modifications. They're not painting a mole on the Mona Lisa, for Chrissakes. They're moving dirt.

When i hear USGA officials comment on target speeds like 14 and 15 (Congressional) and look at the greens (Congressionals were merely rotting due to to stress and rain) and see the results at Pebble, and Shinny yes ,
I do think the USGA is contributing to the unsutainability of golf. (far more than Augusta who is roundly criticized for presenting grass (rye) that is naturally very green and played at a time of year when such fast conditions are obtainable without destroying grass)

Doesn't make me smarter than the USGA, just critical.


I thought Tom Doak's words were quite bold, not carefully chosen.

[John Kavanaugh]

If they would close the turf schools all this would go away.   The USGA only asks for what the experts say they can deliver.

[Kyle Harris]

If they would close the turf schools all this would go away.   The USGA only asks for what the experts say they can deliver.

*nods solemnly*

[Terry Lavin]

@jeffwarne:  nothing wrong with being critical; even a turf idgit like me is critical of them from time to time. My poorly phrased barb was more targeted to purists who think that Merion is some kind of hallowed or sacrosanct ground. It's a course owned by a bunch of members who so badly want the Open that they are willing to trust our nation's governing body on golf, imperfect though it may be, to make this call. It will probably wind up being a non-issue.

[Don_Mahaffey]

The experts can be idiots

The sooner golf moves away from this period of specialization the better.

Formally educated intellect is a decent foundation, but better when mitigated with a healthy dose of intuition.

[Mike_Young]

USGA, Turf schools, PGA whatever...it all comes down to "follow the money".  Remember when the signatures would not build an upscale daily fee?  Whether it is a mower, irrigation head, greens mix ; as long as the industry will find a way to justify each then there will be someone there to say "spend it".   Turf schools need to be run more like a business school where the supt is focused on making a profit.  The mentality is that any of the big jobs are not interested in cost just results. There is a line there.  And the USGA has decided the industry works for them instead of them for the industry.  What do they have now?  Lexus, Rolex, Amex and RBS I think and mot of these also have an endorsement deal with a prominent golf pro.  When the governing body takes money then they are for sale whether an equipment company, a turf company, a golf car company or whatever.  JMO

[Tim Martin]

With as many events under their belts as Merion has with the USGA it seems hard to believe that they didn`t have a darn good idea of what type of green modifications were going to be required to hold the 2013 Open. Even if the USGA didn`t tip their hand back when it was originally awarded to all the tweeks that were required Merion is pretty much all in at this point. The members have probably been advised that the integrity of the design will be restored if necessary. Maybe Mark McKeever can comment regarding the letter to members that he referenced.

[Terry Lavin]

Heck,everybody makes mistakes. I made my living on the mistakes of some prominent surgeons, hospitals and airlines. Flew down to Miami today on American Airlines which was the main defendant in my first big case 30 years ago. Didn't make me lose faith in 'em.  Same is true of most of the docs that I successfully sued over the years. Even a great doc has a bad day. So the USGA shoulda watered more at Shinny and Pebble, shoulda left the rough alone at Olympia and shoulda dissuaded Congressional on regrassing its greens. They are out on the field of battle. Sometimes, they'll mess up, but it's their show.

[Mike_Young]

It would be nice to see the USGA leave it all to a place like Merion and see what they come up with.  IMHO the Merion supt certainly doesn't need their input.  It would be interesting to see what some of these top supts could come up with if it were left to them.

[jeffwarne]

Heck,everybody makes mistakes. I made my living on the mistakes of some prominent surgeons, hospitals and airlines. Flew down to Miami today on American Airlines which was the main defendant in my first big case 30 years ago. Didn't make me lose faith in 'em.  Same is true of most of the docs that I successfully sued over the years. Even a great doc has a bad day. So the USGA shoulda watered more at Shinny and Pebble, shoulda left the rough alone at Olympia and shoulda dissuaded Congressional on regrassing its greens. They are out on the field of battle. Sometimes, they'll mess up, but it's their show.

Exactly.

"It's their show"

Let's let golf and the courses selected be the show.


If they showed up unannounced at Shinny, Merion, or Pebble this June,
the course and the golf could be the show
 (rather than those who have a need to annually justify their existence)
but as you say Terry we all make mistakes, and we all often jutisfy our existence

[Don_Mahaffey]

...field of battle...

Battle? What battle? They'd be better if they actually had someone who could kill them.

[Peter Pallotta]

The experts can be idiots

The sooner golf moves away from this period of specialization the better.

Formally educated intellect is a decent foundation, but better when mitigated with a healthy dose of intuition.

Keep fighting the good fight, Don.  We're losing the battle, but as Bob C reminded me on another thread, there is no Plan B.  Like so many things, it always comes down to money: specialization is promoted/advertised by those who make their money preparing others to be specialists (i.e. to call themselves specialists) -- and those student-specialists who lined up in droves to pay huge fees to their teachers expect in turn to re-coup their money somewhere else, and in big chunks, and sure enough they do recoup it because there is not a single senior official or company rep around who's not ready to cover his ass by hiring a specialist for an enormous amount of money only so that, in the event that there's a bug f--k up, he can turn to his bosses and say " What more could I have done? I hired the best!!".  You can't quantify "intuition" -- but every year that passes I'm more convinced then ever that most of the good and lasting work done in this world is done not by trained monkeys experts, but by intuitives/via intuition.

[Mike_Young]

The experts can be idiots

The sooner golf moves away from this period of specialization the better.

Formally educated intellect is a decent foundation, but better when mitigated with a healthy dose of intuition.

Keep fighting the good fight, Don.  We're losing the battle, but as Bob C reminded me on another thread, there is no Plan B.  Like so many things, it always comes down to money: specialization is promoted/advertised by those who make their money preparing others to be specialists (i.e. to call themselves specialists) -- and those student-specialists who lined up in droves to pay huge fees to their teachers expect in turn to re-coup their money somewhere else, and in big chunks, and sure enough they do recoup it because there is not a single senior official or company rep around who's not ready to cover his ass by hiring a specialist for an enormous amount of money only so that, in the event that there's a bug f--k up, he can turn to his bosses and say " What more could I have done? I hired the best!!".  You can't quantify "intuition" -- but every year that passes I'm more convinced then ever that most of the good and lasting work done in this world is done not by trained monkeys experts, but by intuitives/via intuition.

well said...

[John Kavanaugh]

Stupid holiday drunk post deleted.

[ChipOat]

Tim Martin,

The whole point of my thread is that, IMO, the integrity of the design HAS been restored.

To All:

First, I don't think that the obvious answer for all clubs (i.e. slow down the speed and firmness) is sustainable.  The siren's song that technology can now answer will prove universally irresistible, I'm afraid.  I think Tom Doak said as much.

Also, this has been a pretty civil discussion by any measure (only a couple of exceptions), and for a Merion thread, it's been downright placid - congratulations!  I expected more than a few "tar and feather" posts aimed in my direction.  But.........I live!!!

[Don_Mahaffey]

Chip,
sounds like your saying they would have made the change with or without the Open on the schedule. Do you really believe that?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Chipoat,

The natural progression, as green speeds continue to increase, is for greens to be flattened out, thus depriving them of their contour and character.

I understand your defense of the disfiguration  ,as a member you almost have to defend the action.

The real culprit is distance, the failure to control it at the authoritative level, and the local response to that failure, protecting par at the green end by creating higher and higher speeds, which in turn leads to the disfiguration of the greens through flattening.

When will the need for speed end ?  At 14 ?  15 ?  16 ?   20 ?

And as those speeds increase, more and more greens will be flattened, depriving them of the character which made them distinct.

Eventually, courses will be populated by mundane putting surfaces, the natural byproduct of increased green speeds.

End of rant 

[Tim Martin]

Tim Martin,

The whole point of my thread is that, IMO, the integrity of the design HAS been restored.

To All:

First, I don't think that the obvious answer for all clubs (i.e. slow down the speed and firmness) is sustainable.  The siren's song that technology can now answer will prove universally irresistible, I'm afraid.  I think Tom Doak said as much.

Also, this has been a pretty civil discussion by any measure (only a couple of exceptions), and for a Merion thread, it's been downright placid - congratulations!  I expected more than a few "tar and feather" posts aimed in my direction.  But.........I live!!!

Chipoat-Duly noted. My point about the integrity of the design was not just specific to the 12th and 15th greens but the golf course as a whole which may have been reaching outside the scope of your original post.

[PCCraig]

Heck,everybody makes mistakes. I made my living on the mistakes of some prominent surgeons, hospitals and airlines. Flew down to Miami today on American Airlines which was the main defendant in my first big case 30 years ago. Didn't make me lose faith in 'em.  Same is true of most of the docs that I successfully sued over the years. Even a great doc has a bad day. So the USGA shoulda watered more at Shinny and Pebble, shoulda left the rough alone at Olympia and shoulda dissuaded Congressional on regrassing its greens. They are out on the field of battle. Sometimes, they'll mess up, but it's their show.

Terry,

Correct me if I'm wrong, but if a "great doc" has 4 "bad days" over 10 years, would he still be a credible doctor in today's world? Or have any $ left in his bank account? Still be in business?

I don't have nearly the same amount of ill will towards the USGA that others do here, but sometimes I wish they would just put up the stands, build their merchandise tent, and leave the setup of the course to the home superintendent.

[Mark McKeever]

The members have probably been advised that the integrity of the design will be restored if necessary. Maybe Mark McKeever can comment regarding the letter to members that he referenced.

Tim,

This is very similar to the wording in the letter sent out to the members.  They will make the determination after the event as to what changes they will reverse.

Mark

[jeffwarne]

To All:

First, I don't think that the obvious answer for all clubs (i.e. slow down the speed and firmness) is sustainable.  The siren's song that technology can now answer will prove universally irresistible, I'm afraid.  I think Tom Doak said as much.
!

Chip,
"sustainability" is an ironic word choice.
Clubs attempting to maintain high green speeds (no matter what technology they think they need to use is available) is rapidly making the expense of golf unsustainable, for many/most clubs.
Merion can do what they want.(and you're correct that at today's "desired" speeds those greens need adjusting-it would just be nice if they restored an appropriate spped, not adjust slope-but whatever, we all succumb to peer pressure)
even Augusta can do what they want.
It would be nice if such clubs would lead by example, but they don't have to.

But the USGA should start acting like a grownup and stop leading the charge to unsutainability.
"Do as we say, not as we do" would be an appropriate mantra.
All of course while "teeing it forward" Or is that a   ::)PGA thing......

[Jud_T]

Of course a private club can do whatever the hell it wants, but it seems to me that if modifying classic greens for one tournament only to change them back to "original" afterwards doesn't raise a red flag, I'm not sure what would...puts some weight behind the "listing" of classic courses concept debated on another thread...

[Michael Moore]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but if a "great doc" has 4 "bad days" over 10 years, would he still be a credible doctor in today's world? Or have any $ left in his bank account? Still be in business?

Atul Gawande's incredible essays about the fallibility of doctors in Complications: A Surgeon's Notes on an Imperfect Science might surprise you.

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