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Kevin Pallier

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Best Holes by Architect: Tom Doak
« on: December 25, 2011, 06:40:43 AM »
What are the “best” P3’s, P4’s and P5’s you have seen by the architect mentioned above ?

Try limiting it to max. three per hole type and please explain why you think they are so ?

Scott Warren

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Re: Best Holes by Architect: Tom Doak
« Reply #1 on: December 25, 2011, 06:49:19 AM »
Par 3: 7th at Barnbougle Dunes. The challenge and risk/reward is exactly right for the modest length, it's gorgeous and the scale of the features is perfect. Runners-up: 13 at Barnbougle Dunes and 9 at Renaissance Club.

Short 4: 2nd at St Andrews Beach. Reachable, but also interesting and challenging as a lay-up + wedge hole. Great green, great tie-in of golf and native landscape. Runners-up: 4 at Barnbougle Dunes and 8 at Renaissance Club -- which leaves out such wonderful holes as 14 at St Andrews Beach, 3, 12 and 15 at Barnbougle Dunes. In my experience holes of this type are Renaissance Golf Design's (mindful of the fact Mike Clayton Golf Design teamed up on two of the above courses) greatest strength.

Long 4: 11th at Renaissance Club. Really tough "do or die" drive and the green complex sets up perfectly for a long iron approach. And, really, it has "Muldoon's Tree", what more can you want? Runners-up: 18 at St Andrews Beach and 16 at Renaissance Club.

Par 5: There isn't one that stands out and demands to be selected. Maybe 1 at Barnbougle Dunes, 17 at St Andrews Beach or 10 at Renaissance Club. All fun holes with fun greens and approach shots.
« Last Edit: December 25, 2011, 07:11:13 AM by Scott Warren »

Kevin Pallier

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Re: Best Holes by Architect: Tom Doak
« Reply #2 on: December 25, 2011, 07:01:57 AM »
Scott / Brian - some good starts. If you could expand as to 3 P3's, 3 P4's and 3 P5's ?

Ronald Montesano

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Re: Best Holes by Architect: Tom Doak
« Reply #3 on: December 25, 2011, 07:10:46 AM »
I've only played Charlotte GL and Pacific Dunes, so not enough of his work is known to contribute.
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

cary lichtenstein

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Re: Best Holes by Architect: Tom Doak
« Reply #4 on: December 25, 2011, 07:36:01 AM »
#9 at Yale
Live Jupiter, Fl, was  4 handicap, played top 100 US, top 75 World. Great memories, no longer play, 4 back surgeries. I don't miss a lot of things about golf, life is simpler with out it. I miss my 60 degree wedge shots, don't miss nasty weather, icing, back spasms. Last course I played was Augusta

Cory Lewis

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Re: Best Holes by Architect: Tom Doak
« Reply #5 on: December 25, 2011, 07:41:48 AM »
8th at Ballyneal is one of the best par 5's I've ever seen!
Instagram: @2000golfcourses
http://2000golfcourses.blogspot.com

Anthony Gray

Re: Best Holes by Architect: Tom Doak
« Reply #6 on: December 25, 2011, 07:44:37 AM »
6 and 16 at Pac Dunes stand out to me. 18 at Cape Kidnappers is a great finish. No better green site.

Carl Rogers

Re: Best Holes by Architect: Tom Doak
« Reply #7 on: December 25, 2011, 08:29:08 AM »
The 4th at Riverfront (Suffolk VA) is on their web site as one of his & team's best par 3's.  I started a thread on it.
I have started Riverfront threads on the 5th & 10th holes at Riverfront.  Many of you, if you ever got to Riverfront would discover that holes 1 (hard 4 par start), 3 (par 4.5), 7 (short par 4), 12 (long 4), 13 (medium 3 w/ smallest green on the course), 14 (longest fishook par 5) & 15 (most picturesque but plays harder than it looks) are none too shabby.

When at the Bay of Dreams w/ Tom, in January of 2006, he told me that PD no. 8 was his favorite hole, without defining "favorite".  Even at the rough-in stage the 9th at the Bay of Dreams was a stand out short par 5 hole.

I got 3 rounds at Beechtree (NLE) before closing and my most memorable holes were no. 6 (uphill dogleg left medium length par 4, majestic green site on a hill framed by, I think maples), no. 8, (longest par 5); no. 12 (blind tee shot, long thin green w/ deep bunkers right & left) & 13 (middle length par 3, hard tee shot) & the three finishing holes which gave the golfer a real breather down the stretch.





« Last Edit: December 25, 2011, 09:23:19 AM by Carl Rogers »

Ronald Montesano

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Re: Best Holes by Architect: Tom Doak
« Reply #8 on: December 25, 2011, 08:32:58 AM »
Cary, you hit the rum punch early?
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Mac Plumart

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Re: Best Holes by Architect: Tom Doak
« Reply #9 on: December 25, 2011, 11:04:55 AM »
Par 3's...

The Redan at Pacific Dunes...wonderful setting and really natural looking classic golf hole (how about that hidden bunker under that pine tree on the FAR right?)

17 at Rock Creek...stunning!






Par 4's...

2 at Sebonack is an all-time great hole...challenging off the tee, on the approach, and with an epic green

6 at Pacific Dunes is amazing...what a unique hole with a lot of different ways to try to tame it.

13 at Pacific Dunes...rugged hole that feels more like an adventure hike rather than a game of golf.



Par 5's...

15 at Old Mac (Westward Ho!)...again, more like an adventure than golf.  




8 at Ballyneal...one of the best holes of all time (IMO).

« Last Edit: December 25, 2011, 11:06:47 AM by Mac Plumart »
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best Holes by Architect: Tom Doak
« Reply #10 on: December 25, 2011, 11:43:33 AM »
Par 5 10th at Black Forest
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Bill_McBride

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Re: Best Holes by Architect: Tom Doak
« Reply #11 on: December 25, 2011, 12:42:22 PM »
Par 3 - #11 Pacific Dunes

Short Par 4 - #16 Pacific Dunes

Long Par 4 - #16 Old Mac

Par 5 - #8 Stone Eagle

Ben Sims

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Best Holes by Architect: Tom Doak
« Reply #12 on: December 25, 2011, 12:52:37 PM »
P3:  (Tie)  Old Macdonald #2 and Common Ground #17.  The hole at Bandon does a phenomenal job of presenting a classic problem to the player.  Try to get it between the Hill and Strath, or whether to fly the Strath.  From the tee the slope looks benign, then you get to the green and realize the danger of leaving it short.  The hole is perfectly framed by the ridge behind it.  The Eden at Old Mac is what every "island" green should aspire to.  The long 3 at Common Ground is underrated by quite a bit.  Three characteristics define the hole and provide a dozen ways to play the hole. 1)  The crossing bunkers 150-200 yds off the tee confuse the eye into thinking it is a long carry and hide 2) the large amount of fairway short and right of the green.  This huge "layup" area provides playability for the higher handicaps and provides a strategic conundrum due to the 3) huge hump in the middle of the green that effectively divides the green in two.  Ask yourself, is the pin up or back.  And if in front, par is the worst I should make, if in back, par is a birdie.

P4:  Old Macdonald #4  How can I not pick #13 at Pacific Dunes, or #7 at Ballyneal?  Because I play each one the same every time.  Pac Dunes #13 is always two busted shots into the wind, pray for two putts or an up and down.  Ballyneal #7 is always a 3 wood over the bunker, chip and putt (or two).  Old Mac #4, with it's insanely confusing tee shot--that you can hit a lot further left than you think--sets the tone.  Succeed on the tee and a par can be had.  If not, and you end up right of the hogsback leaving yourself 200+ yds (blind) to the green, the decision is about the second shot.  There's a very nice place to layup in between the last centerline bunker and the valley of sin, but it will require accuracy.  Then a terrifying in-betweener shot awaits for your third.  The green surface is no picnic with seemingly every putt darting for the green edges.

P5:  Ballyneal #13  What's that you say?  This isn't a par 5?  Not only is it a par 5 from the far back tee to the right of #12 green, it's the best par 5 at Ballyneal and probably the best par 5 of Renaissance's that I've seen.  The carry isn't as crazy as it seems at around 190 from the back.  Once on the fairway, most golfers will be left with a 230-260 yd shot to a green that is partially hidden by a small dune with a bunker in its face.  If the pin is tucked behind that dune, you have no chance at getting there.  If the pin is in the center or front, there is a nice halfpipe feature that can help funnel a low slinging shot towards the hole.  But beware, the isn't a ton of room in front between the dune and the bunker complex on the left for a miss short, and a miss right of centerline will leave a third shot almost completely blind to the green.  The green isn't the toughest to putt at Ballyneal, but has been confusing to myself and many playing partners in the past.  I still have no idea where a putt above the hole putting to the front of the green is going to break.  The caddies don't either.

Some honorable mentions include:  #2 at Stone Eagle, #16 at Old Mac, #3 at Ballyneal, #2 and #6 at Pacific Dunes, #8 at Common Ground.  To come:  #3 (P3), #4 #9 #14 #18 (P4) and #10 (P5) Dismal River.  Lots of good holes there.

I need to preface this post because I haven't played a ton of Renaissance's work.  Most importantly, I've yet to see Barnbougle, Cape K, St. Andrews Beach or Rock Creek.  But the holes above stand out among the ones I have played.

PS--Maybe I like Old Macdonald more than I thought I did.   ;D

Adam Clayman

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Re: Best Holes by Architect: Tom Doak
« Reply #13 on: December 25, 2011, 01:33:30 PM »
ben.  -   Or you've contract recentitis.  ;D
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Peter Ferlicca

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best Holes by Architect: Tom Doak
« Reply #14 on: December 25, 2011, 03:13:48 PM »
Best Par 3's:
Rock Creek Cattle Company #17 (the most natural setting for a par 3 I have ever seen, I was in shock when I stepped on the tee)
Tumble Creek #11 (By far the best par 3 at the golf club, right into the wind to a crowned green)
Old MacDonald #5 Short (Personally I don't think this hole gets enough respect, people complain to much about the severity of the green, but with the ocean in the background, and a good view of the whole golf course, and with pac dunes #17 right to your left, it is a great green site.)

Best Par 4's:
Pacific Dunes #13 (Right along the ocean, with the biggest sand dune I have seen to the right, pretty much explains it right there)
Rock Creek Cattle Company #7 (AMAZING golf hole, it is a rollercoaster up, down, up, down, No bunkers needed on this great hole)
Stone Eagle #6 (My favorite hole at Stone Eagle, uphill par 4 360 yards, to a beautiful skyline green, with a cape style tee shot.)

Best Par 5's:
Rock Creek Cattle Company #11 (My favorite Doak Par 5, the 11th hole represents what makes a great par 5.)
Tumble Creek #4 (The only hole where they moved a significant amount of dirt and it paid off with being a great two tiered uphill par 5, you have to see it to believe it)
Ballyneal #16 (my favorite hole at Ballyneal, the shoot through the dunes to an elevated green for you second is amazing)
Stone Eagle #8 (Only 500 yards, most people think it will be easy to reach in two, but with the green right over a ravine carrying an uphill 200 yard shot on your second is a lot harder than you think.  Most underrated hole at Stone Eagle.)
« Last Edit: December 25, 2011, 07:44:45 PM by Peter Ferlicca »

Anthony Gray

Re: Best Holes by Architect: Tom Doak
« Reply #15 on: December 25, 2011, 06:01:44 PM »
8 at Old Mac is my favorite hole on the course.

Matthew Mollica

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Re: Best Holes by Architect: Tom Doak
« Reply #16 on: December 25, 2011, 07:15:27 PM »
A few antipodean nominations...

Explanations later - I'm about to rush out the door to play Kingston Heath with Bill Schulz!

Par 3

7 Barnbougle Dunes
13 Barnbougle Dunes

Par 4

2 St Andrews Beach
4 Barnbougle Dunes
17 Cape Kidnappers

Par 5

4 Cape Kidnappers
"The truth about golf courses has a slightly different expression for every golfer. Which of them, one might ask, is without the most definitive convictions concerning the merits or deficiencies of the links he plays over? Freedom of criticism is one of the last privileges he is likely to forgo."

Don_Mahaffey

Re: Best Holes by Architect: Tom Doak
« Reply #17 on: December 25, 2011, 09:21:52 PM »
Par 3
I really like the 11th at Pac Dunes, and the 12th at Old Mac from the back tee.
Honorable mention to the 11th at High Point, 17th at Pd, and 3rd at Texas Tech. The 5th at Dismal will make some lists in the future.

Par 4
The 4th at Apache Stronghold was one of my all time favorites. I like the 10th at Old Mac a lot. There are a lot of good par 4s at Old Mac, but few engage my brain like the 10th.
Honorable mention to the 2nd, 6th, and 13th at PD. I have a feeling the 13th at Dismal River will be a choice of mine in the future.

Par 5
Love the 17th at OM and the 18th at PD.
There is (was?) a par 5 at Apache, the 15th I believe, that was a downhill dog leg right that had some of the most natural green surrounds and natural green contours I'd ever seen. Subtle, yet excellent.

Peter Galea

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Re: Best Holes by Architect: Tom Doak
« Reply #18 on: December 25, 2011, 09:36:38 PM »
What say you Tom Doak?
Which are your best (favorite) holes?

Isn't MacKenzie quoted on the Pasatiempo scorecard that, "16 was his favorite par 4"?
"chief sherpa"

Mac Plumart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best Holes by Architect: Tom Doak
« Reply #19 on: December 25, 2011, 09:39:47 PM »
What say you Tom Doak?
Which are your best (favorite) holes?


Peter...

perhaps this will answer for Tom.

http://www.renaissancegolf.com/work/rgd_best_holes/
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Peter Galea

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Re: Best Holes by Architect: Tom Doak
« Reply #20 on: December 25, 2011, 09:43:41 PM »
Thanks Mac, I guess a little google time would have answered the question.
"chief sherpa"

Ed Brzezowski

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Re: Best Holes by Architect: Tom Doak
« Reply #21 on: December 25, 2011, 10:19:46 PM »
None from Stonewall???  I am really shocked by this omission. Might have to ride up tomorrow and take some pics. There are some beautiful and challenging holes there. My book is at the office but i recall it being in his top choices. You guys must have hit the egg nog too hard.
We have a pool and a pond, the pond would be good for you.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Best Holes by Architect: Tom Doak
« Reply #22 on: December 25, 2011, 11:14:18 PM »
What say you Tom Doak?
Which are your best (favorite) holes?


Pete:

Yes, I'm on record on our web site, but it's nice to see so many different holes nominated by others, and to hear the reasoning for the selections.

I've always told golf writers that I have two kinds of favorite holes.

The first kind are the holes like the 13th at Pacific Dunes, or the 8th at Ballyneal, or the soon-to-be 3rd at Dismal River.  These were just laying there waiting for me to find them; but, once you've found them, there really isn't too much to do or to be proud of.

The other kind are holes like the 18th at Stonewall (Old course), or the 8th at Pacific Dunes, or the 7th at Ballyneal, where I didn't know exactly what we were going to do when we started building those courses.  I'm really the proudest of holes like those, where after a long period of staring at them, something clicked in my brain and we wound up with something really good that I never expected.

I'm surprised that no one has picked a hole from Lost Dunes yet, either.  I've got several favorites there.

Kevin Pallier

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best Holes by Architect: Tom Doak
« Reply #23 on: December 26, 2011, 07:08:23 AM »
I have seen a view Doak’s (Pacific Dunes, Barnbougle, St Andrews Beach, Old Mac, Sebonack ) but not the following (Rock Creek, Cape Kidnappers) so for mine:

P3's:
7th Barnbougle - great short hole and example why length isn’t required to make a strong P3 . Safe miss is right but still a tricky up’n’down awaits
13th Barnbougle - one of the wildest and most fun greens one could hope to putt on
11th Pacific Dunes - perched against the cliffs a tricky shot is required to a small target that is beset by bunkers

P4's:
2nd SAB - bunkers are aptly placed on one of the better modern short P4’s going around with the green is tucked hard up against a dune.
13th Pacific Dunes - great use of natural contours and setting
18th SAB - probably my favourite closing hole of Doak - elevated tee shot to a green that is in a lovely setting
 
P5's:
17th OM - great use of angles and options
18th Sebonack - bunkered right away from the ocean captures those that bail right
3rd Pacific Dunes – a challenge in the breeze with centreline bunkers ever-present
« Last Edit: December 26, 2011, 07:10:20 AM by Kevin Pallier »

Ken Fry

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Re: Best Holes by Architect: Tom Doak
« Reply #24 on: December 26, 2011, 10:08:52 AM »

I'm surprised that no one has picked a hole from Lost Dunes yet, either.  I've got several favorites there.


Tom,

You beat me to it.  I've been following to see if anyone would mention Lost Dunes and was going to add my 2 cents this morning.

I may elect different holes than most from Lost Dunes, but my favorites are:

#1 - A short par 4 with a very generous fairway unless you're driver carries too far then you need to take the more aggressive line down the left side.  What I've always loved about this hole is the green.  Even with 75 yards in to this green, it's difficult to get the ball close to every hole location except the middle back.  The green is a low profile, lay of the land roller coaster.  Awesome.

#14 - Again, a short par 4 that just gets into the player's head right from the tee.  Water all down the right side, the aggressive play is hugging the water which gives a much better angle into the green.  Fairway is wider than it looks, but your eye looks right down the right side.  Another great low profile hole.  Like #1, nothing flashy (the view from the tee is great) but a blast.

#15 - So many options on this par 5.  Be as aggressive as you can handle on the tee shot then make smart decisions up the fairway.  Reachable in 2 for stronger hitters but lots of trouble around the green.  Again, a low profile green that will shrug mediocre shots off.  The green set on top of the hill is a wonderful example of restraint.  No flashy bunkers or extravagant mounding.  A fun hole with an incredible view from the green back down the fairway.

Ken