[Kevin Pallier]

What are the “best” P3’s, P4’s and P5’s you have seen by the architect mentioned above ?

Try limiting it to max. three per hole type and please explain why you think they are so ?

[Scott Warren]

Kev,

My favourite of each par by MacKenzie may well be three holes in a row: 4-6 at Royal Melbourne (West).

Of that trio, only the par five is in doubt. Perhaps 10 at Alwoodley or 15 at The Valley Club are better.

[Tom_Doak]

Wow -- a tough question as we are spoiled for good choices.

Par 3's:  15th at Kingston Heath
     16th at Cypress Point
     12th at Augusta National

Short Par 4's:  9th at Lahinch
     9th at Cypress Point
     3rd at Royal Melbourne (West)

Long Par 4's:  6th at Royal Melbourne (West)
     3rd at The Valley Club
     14th at Pasatiempo - my sleeper pick

Par 5's:  8th at Crystal Downs
     4th at Royal Melbourne (West)
     13th at Augusta National

That is some list of par fives!  And par threes!

[Bill_McBride]

Too many to pick from!   (Obviously I haven't been Down Under!    )

Par 3 -  #11 Alwoodley.   Runner up #17 Littlestone

Short Par 4 - #7 Crystal Downs.  Runner up #8 Cypress Point

Long Par 4 - #16  Valley Club.   Runner up #8 Pebble Beach

Par 5 - #2 Cypress Point.  Runner up #8 Crystal Downs

[Ben Sims]

Wow -- a tough question as we are spoiled for good choices.

Par 3's:     12th at Augusta National

Long Par 4's:    14th at Pasatiempo - my sleeper pick

Tom,

I still can't pinpoint why #12 at Augusta is so great.  Not to be a grinch, but can you explain why you (not Jim Nantz or Ian Baker-Finch) think it's so great?

As far as Pasa #14, I think that swale on the left is one of the great features on the entire golf course.  And the green slopes away.  Tough hole, but probably the widest on the back nine.

[Mike_Young]

it is often not acknowledged but I think is 14th hole at Merion was one of his best.

[Tom_Doak]

Tom,

I still can't pinpoint why #12 at Augusta is so great.  Not to be a grinch, but can you explain why you (not Jim Nantz or Ian Baker-Finch) think it's so great?

Ben:

I only included the 12th at Augusta because I assumed it would be a consensus choice.  I think it's a very exacting hole, which is most people's definition of a good par-3 ... and the Scroogish dimensions DO create strategy about where you should aim your tee shot, as opposed to just playing toward the flag as you do on 98% of par-3 holes.

To be honest, though, there are several other MacKenzie par-3 holes I would rather go out and play today than that one.  The first one that came to mind was the 11th at Lahinch; the ninth [which I chose previously] and the eleventh are the only two original MacKenzie greens left there.  The 5th and 16th at Royal Melbourne (West) would both be great choices.  The Gibraltar at Moortown was a hole of which the Doctor was particularly proud.

[Sean_A]

I haven't seen much Dr Mac, but I would pick:

Long Par 4: #10 Cavendish; #15 Weston-s-Mare; #13 Reddish Vale

Short Par 4: #3 Cavendish; #6 UofM

Par 5: # #3 UofM; #8 Alwoodley

Par 3: #15 Cavendish; #11 Lahinch; #17 Littlestone

Ciao

[Ben Jarvis]

Of the MacKenzie courses I've been fortunate to play, here is my choice.

Par-3's
15th at Cypress Point
- words cannot describe just how breathtaking the scenery is
16th at Cypress Point
- your heart pounds from the moment you get a glimpse of what lies ahead of you
5th at Royal Melbourne West
- one of the great greensites imaginable
Honorable Mention: 7th at Royal Melbourne West - a wonderful, short, uphill par-3 that can be a menace to play in the wind, even for those in the recent Presidents Cup.

Par-4's (short)
9th at Cypress Point
- how many sub 300 yard par-4's are you content when making par?
3rd at Royal Melbourne West
- wonderfully deceptive green, with numerous options for your approach shot
10th at Royal Melbourne West
- so tempting

Par-4's (long)
6th at Royal Melbourne West
- heroic driving hole, followed by a demanding approach to a stunning greensite
16th at Pasatiempo
- heroic approach shot into a green that has to be seen to believe
"I think the 16th is the best two shot hole I know" - Dr. Alister MacKenzie

Par-5's
4th at Royal Melbourne West
- wonderful second shot (whether it is a lay-up or you go for the green) from a hanging lie
- beautiful bunkering ties in with the vegetation down the right side of the second shot
5th at Cypress Point
- stunning bunkering as turn the corner and make the climb to the green. You look back, and there is no sand to be seen!

[James Boon]

I haven't seen much Dr Mac, but I would pick:

Long Par 4: #10 Cavendish; #15 Weston-s-Mare; #13 Reddish Vale

Short Par 4: #3 Cavendish; #6 UofM

Par 5: # #4 UofM; #8 Alwoodley

Par 3: #15 Cavendish; #11 Lahinch; #17 Littlestone

Ciao

Sean,

I too haven't much MacKenzie under my belt, but I'd certainly agree with those I've highlighted in your post, while adding Moortown's par 3 10th, Gibralter!

I only played Alwoodley for the first time a few days ago, so am still digesting the course, but the 8th was probably the stand out hole for me?

Cheers,

James

[Mark Pearce]

Also a limited selection but:

Par 3s:

15 at CPC - I was anticipating 15 so much that I had ignored this hole but it is a truly great short par 3
11 at Alwoodley - a brilliant hole where hitting the green is only half the battle
18 at Pasatiempo - I think, I made such a mess of this hole that I can't swear by my recollection!

Short par 4

9 at CPC
17 at Seaton Carew - not driveable but a fantastic green to approach with a wedge

Long par 4s:

10 at Cavendish - brilliant use of a ravine
11 at Pasatiempo - not long on the card but long enough, playing uphill as it does, another great way to use a ravine

Par 5s

2 at CPC
8 at Alwoodley
10 at Alwoodley

[Mark Johnson]

while 16 is CPC is a great hole, am I the only person alive who actually thinks that the 3rd hole is the best hole on the course?

So many subtlties going on, with the misaligned tee box, the slope of the green, the false front which creates depth perception issues and oh by the way, you have to deal with a cross wind .   Such a great mid-length par 3

[Ben Jarvis]

while 16 is CPC is a great hole, am I the only person alive who actually thinks that the 3rd hole is the best hole on the course?

So many subtlties going on, with the misaligned tee box, the slope of the green, the false front which creates depth perception issues and oh by the way, you have to deal with a cross wind .   Such a great mid-length par 3

Mark, I too thought the third was a wonderful hole. However, you could say that about all 18 in my opinion. I'm not sure where to stop!

[Matthew Mollica]

This thread illustrates a significant and common flaw with GCA thinking. Many of the holes MacKenzie is said to have designed may have been sited and routed by him, but some have not, and some have been changed significantly since he first designed the holes in question. Royal Melbourne West 6 had changed appreciably - it was bunkered on the outside of the dogleg originally. It would seem a much better hole now. And RMW #7 was designed by Ivo Whitton, and built in part by Crockford IIRC. The old 7th which MacKenzie suggested, played to what is now the tee on RME #1.

MM

[Kyle Henderson]

Par 3's: CPC #16; Kingston Heath #15; Pasatiempo #3; RMW #5 and #16

Par 4's: Claremont CC #6; CPC #8 and #9;The Meadow Club #7; Pasatiempo #10, #11,and #16; RMW #6, #10 and #17; Valley Club #3

Par 5's: CPC #2 and #5; Kingston Heath #12; The Meadow Club #15; Pasatiempo #13; RMW  #4

[Sean_A]

I haven't seen much Dr Mac, but I would pick:

Long Par 4: #10 Cavendish; #15 Weston-s-Mare; #13 Reddish Vale

Short Par 4: #3 Cavendish; #6 UofM

Par 5: # #4 UofM; #8 Alwoodley

Par 3: #15 Cavendish; #11 Lahinch; #17 Littlestone

Ciao

Sean,

I too haven't much MacKenzie under my belt, but I'd certainly agree with those I've highlighted in your post, while adding Moortown's par 3 10th, Gibralter!

I only played Alwoodley for the first time a few days ago, so am still digesting the course, but the 8th was probably the stand out hole for me?

Cheers,

James

Boony

Yes, 8 was the only hole I thought was perhaps exceptional (gets extra credit as a par 5) amongst a bevy of very good golf. 

Ciao

[Kevin Pallier]

Thanks to those that have answered the original Q and expressed why they feel certain holes are strong rather than list Mackenzie holes.

Interested as to not many responses from Crystal Downs ? other than the 8th ?

For mine:

P3's:
16th CPC - for the all scenic heroic carry (that or the option to alternatively navigate it around the cliff)
15th Kingston Heath - one of the best examples of an uphill P3. Requires one to read the wind and hit an exacting tee shot to a green that is well protected
5th RMW - perfect placement of tee and greensite. Above the hole is treacherous and short is humiliating
NB: Haven't seen 12th at Augusta

P4's:
9th CPC - for those that think the short 10th at RMW is good - CPC's short hole is much better. Better green, enticement and deception.
6th RMW - reward for the longer hitter. By laying back one has to hit off an angled lie uphill to a green that fends off weak shots into it
11th Pasatiempo - the use of the ravine is a masterstroke as is the placement of the greenside bunkers. The uphill approach shot is deceptive with 
NB: I haven't seen Augusta’s P4’s

P5's:
4th RMW - more of a half par hole these days. Advantage to the ball shaper - best shot shape is a fade off the tee and a draw into the green.
2nd CPC - great example of a cape styled hole with a classic risk v reward tee shot
6th CPC -  the longer hitter is able to take advantage of the terrain but still has to deal with a hanging lie 2nd shot

NB: I haven't seen Augusta’s 13th or 15th

[Tim Bert]

I haven't played enough to include too much variety...

Par 3s - Cypress Point 15, Crystal Downs 14, Pasatiempo 3.

Par 4s - Cypress Point 9, Pasatiempo 10, Crystal Downs 1

Par 5s - Cypress Point 5, Cypress Point 6, Crystal Downs 8

[Mark Chaplin]

3-6 Royal Melbourne West possibly the finest stretch of holes in the world & they fit in with short 4, par 5, par 3 and long 4.

I havent played CPC yet but would 15 and 16 have been massively different in other hands??

[Joel_Stewart]

Par 3 - 15th at Cypress Point

Par 4- 7th at Crystal Downs.  The boomerang green



Par 5 - 12th at Augusta

[Jackson C]

This thread illustrates a significant and common flaw with GCA thinking. Many of the holes MacKenzie is said to have designed may have been sited and routed by him, but some have not, and some have been changed significantly since he first designed the holes in question. Royal Melbourne West 6 had changed appreciably - it was bunkered on the outside of the dogleg originally. It would seem a much beter hole now. And RMW #7 was deigned by Ivo Whitton, and built in part by Crockford IIRC. The old 7th which MacKenzie suggested played to what is now the tee on RME #1.

MM

On the other hand, can we credit MacKenzie with some of the holes at New South Wales?
I see no reference to New South Wales in this thread.
I read he is responsible for most of the current routing and holes.
Are some of his holes at New South Wales amongst his best?

[Tom_Doak]

3-6 Royal Melbourne West possibly the finest stretch of holes in the world & they fit in with short 4, par 5, par 3 and long 4.

I havent played CPC yet but would 15 and 16 have been massively different in other hands??

Mark:

I've always thought the "clubhouse loop" of holes 1-7-8-9 at Crystal Downs offered the same thing you describe ... a great long 4, a great short 4, a great par 5, and a great par 3.

[Matthew Mollica]

Jackson, I'm not sure there's much genuine MacKenzie in the ground at NSW. Eric Apperley is credited by most as having done the majority there.

[Tom_Doak]

Jackson, I'm not sure there's much genuine MacKenzie in the ground at NSW. Eric Apperley is credited by most as having done the majority there.

Dr. MacKenzie did the original routing for NSW and maybe some green sketches, but left the club's secretary to carry out the work.  Apperley came along a few years later and made some significant improvements.  Among the changes -- ALL of the par-3 holes are Apperley's work, including the famous 6th hole.

However, you could give MacKenzie credit for holes like #5 and #7, if you wanted to include those.  Pretty sure the short par-4 #14 is also his original hole.

[Jackson C]

Jackson, I'm not sure there's much genuine MacKenzie in the ground at NSW. Eric Apperley is credited by most as having done the majority there.

Thanks Matt, from reading about the course, it was seriously modified during WWII by Apperley.
Apperley created new holes 1, 2, 6, 8, 11 and 17 (which includes all the par 3).
Holes 5 (downhill par 5), 14 (short par 4 over the bay to tilting fairway) and 16 (long par 4) are acknowledged as MacKenzie's, and said to be among the best on the course, and perhaps the world?

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