[Andrew Summerell]

This is why I find rankings conversations hilarious and pointless. And the way you guys use quotes from other people to prove your points, it surprises me one of you hasn’t started a fundamentalist cult.

[Justin Ryan]

Personal attack Justin?  You must have to bathe every night in Holy Water, since that is the only substance that wouldn't be too harsh for your sensitive skin.

Mark, I am a very forgiving fellow.

Given that construction and vegetation management appears to be your main beef with NSW, I wonder if you could provide some opinion on the following from Nat Old, a course you think so highly of.  

2nd Hole.  Works fine strategically, but those bunkers are a complete mess.  Looks like they borrowed a TWP cookie cutter and bent it a little. And what is with the phallic-shaped trap on the right?  An acknowledgement that the course is a complete cock-up?

I also don't like the green complexes or the general lack of strategy. As a respected member (by me) put it - My philosophy for NSW: "A found ball is a good shot."  This member clearly likes this style of golf, but for me it represents golfing hell.

With reference to the picture, it would probably be a better hole if they weren't there. It is a very difficult angle from the RHS.

3rd Hole.  The fact that containment bowls had to be built into the fairway would suggest there wasn't a hole to be routed here. So would trapping both sides of the fairway.

Like two, it is a very difficult angle from the RHS and they provide no strategic purpose.

However, the green strongly favours a shot from the LHS, and to get there you need to take on the LH traps. It is a carry of around 200 metres from the back tee and is very intimidating. It is a terrific heroic tee shot. Now that you have your game back on track it may be this option becomes available to you. It may be time for a return visit.

That vegetation on the left greenside bunker doesn't look too flash.

Not a bunker, but agree that more width would be better. However, does further emphasise the importance of taking on the LHS from the tee.

4th Hole.  A par three over water 300 feet up in the hills.  Ridiculous bunkers. Ridiculous hole.  

How does it compare to the par threes at NSW?

Talk about vegetation management.

That is at the lower end of the scale, and fairly typical of what you see all over the place these days. I think I can top you.

5th Hole.  Are we at Capital or The National?

Begs the question on the second shot that middle bunker. Works well.

6th Tee.  A little encroachment here, wouldn't you say?  What's the excuse?  Surely Des Tobin would be used to the smell of a little smoke?

No. The fairway in the landing area is more than 50 metres wide. Hit it in those trees and you deserve to lose it. How wide is the fairway in the landing area on 7 or 15 at NSW?

8th Hole.  Just a complete disgrace from start to finish. And you reckon the 3rd at NSW is bad?

Tee shot looks more intimidating than it is, with the fairway again around 50 metres wide. There is a huge advantage in playing the riskier shot onto the upper deck with the second shot.

Another brilliant example of natural looking vegetation on the 14th hole.

Refer to above.

What is this supposed to be?  Another complete dog.  Over-bunkered, over-vegetated, overdone. A waste of a reasonably decent piece of land.

Some interesting contours in that green. Good fun. Clearly when you are as bold as Trent Jones was it is not going to be to everyones taste.

No can do.  I am working evenings at the moment, and the venue sounds suspiciously like somewhere in the Western suburbs anyway.  I don't do the Western suburbs, it's beneath me.

Ahh, is that why you are defending the elites at NSW?

[Justin Ryan]

I bet Westgate next week doesn't have anything that bad, even with the ciggies, home made bongs and dirty needles no doubt strewn about the place.

I will be disappointed if there is not a burnt out car body as well.  Now that one was an interesting hazard, and culturally appropriate, hazard when it was there.

On this one, I have heard from everyone mentioned bar Mr Cocking, and everyone is keen. Even Tony Titheridge, who was well abreast of this thread but tells me he is having trouble getting his password reset. We just need a day, with Wednesday or Friday suiting the most.

The green fee is likely to be around $10 for the nine. I propose around a 6:30 start, which should see us eating around 8:00ish at Motorino - http://foodbymotorino.com.au/

When comparing the two courses isn't one really important factor the walkability? The Old Course is a really difficult walk - to the point where I assume almost all play in carts.
A course that is so difficult to walk is, by definition, poorly or inconsiderately routed.
We can debate its merits and demerits all day but NSW is a beautiful, and quite easy, walk. For one who has absolutely no interest in playing golf in a cart that puts NSW miles ahead.

I have always walked National Old, and don't consider myself to be an ironman (though I stand to be corrected). I always found National Moonah more exhausting. Or at risk of being seen to be provocative, St Andrews Beach.

Whatever Justine and David have to say about this, National Moonah is by far the best course of the three at the The National. While there is little chance that Moonah will pass NSW in any sane persons course rankings, I would never say never on this front... But to entertain the thoughts of someone who believes National Old is in the same category as NSW is be the equivalent of taking advice from someone who wakes on the couch with gummy bears from the night before stuck between their chins.

Anthony, you will have to do a little more than look at the current rankings or the length of the waiting list then take a cheap shot to convince me.

This is why I find rankings conversations hilarious and pointless. And the way you guys use quotes from other people to prove your points, it surprises me one of you hasn’t started a fundamentalist cult.

Are there no cults on here Andrew?

[Andrew Summerell]

This is why I find rankings conversations hilarious and pointless. And the way you guys use quotes from other people to prove your points, it surprises me one of you hasn’t started a fundamentalist cult.

Are there no cults on here Andrew?

I’m surprised someone hasn’t brought out the old Pebble Beach question. Y’know the question: If NSW was 50km inland, would it even be ranked in the top 50?

I love that question!

[Anthony Butler]

This is why I find rankings conversations hilarious and pointless. And the way you guys use quotes from other people to prove your points, it surprises me one of you hasn’t started a fundamentalist cult.

Are there no cults on here Andrew?

I’m surprised someone hasn’t brought out the old Pebble Beach question. Y’know the question: If NSW was 50km inland, would it even be ranked in the top 50?

I love that question!

You can't separate something built into the land from the land into which it was built... I know people from Melbourne have a limited appreciation for physical beauty, but do you think the Opera House would be one of the world's most photographed buildings if it was plonked down in the middle of Pitt St?

And that's just a building... which can actually be moved... this type of hypothetical question about separating a golf course from its location fits very much into the category of: If your aunt had a dick would she be your uncle?

[Mark_F]

On this one, I have heard from everyone mentioned bar Mr Cocking, and everyone is keen. Even Tony Titheridge, who was well abreast of this thread but tells me he is having trouble getting his password reset. We just need a day, with Wednesday or Friday suiting the most.

How about Wednesday the 8th.  I will have quit my job by next week, which will give me a little time to practice, in order to ensure I finish you off on the 5th hole.  I don't want to have to pay my security detail penalty rates for too long.

What are the dress standards?  I assume Adidas trackies and an AC/DC or Metallica T-shirt are acceptable, if not encouraged.

How does it compare to the par threes at NSW?

It is much, much worse.  11 at NSW is a very good hole, with a green that appears to startlingly be almost all false front.  6 is or at least was also a good hole. 17 was out of play, but it looked okay, apart from the rampant plantings. 2 is a dog. Having said that, 7 and 16 on Old are obviously very good holes. 4 is not. If it was at Eagle Ridge you would be holding it up as a perfect example of all that is wrong with architecture.

No. The fairway in the landing area is more than 50 metres wide. Hit it in those trees and you deserve to lose it. How wide is the fairway in the landing area on 7 or 15 at NSW?

There is no way the landing area on 7 is fifty metres wide unless you use the same measuring wheel Brian uses on St Andrews Beach 13. 7 at NSW has plenty of width.  I am surprised a straight knocker like yourself doesn't think so.  15 is obviously much different, but in the context of the routing and its position within the round, it works very well.  

There is a huge advantage in playing the riskier shot onto the upper deck with the second shot.

There is a huge advantage to admiring the beach view then walking the rest of the way, perhaps throwing a ball or two onto the green for a little light relief.  This hole makes the 3rd at NSW look like RM West 6.

That very good courses have simple elegant features.  Feel free to expand on that if you like.  

Elegant - Pleasingly graceful and stylish in appearance or manner. Pretty much describes all of RM, LF, BBD, Woodlands, Commo, Vic, KH, StAB, Pen Nth and Sth, Grange West, Barwon Heads, even Ranfurlie.  It does not describe Nat Old.  

Gauche is a better term for Nat Old - inelegant, inept, unsophisticated, uncultured, uncultivated, unrefined.  And that's even without throwing the members into the mix.

Simple - composed of a single element; not compound. Also perfectly describes the above courses.  

[Justin Ryan]

How about Wednesday the 8th.  I will have quit my job by next week, which will give me a little time to practice, in order to ensure I finish you off on the 5th hole.  I don't want to have to pay my security detail penalty rates for too long.

What are the dress standards?  I assume Adidas trackies and an AC/DC or Metallica T-shirt are acceptable, if not encouraged.

Mark, trackies are fine but if warm you may want to wear your old footy shorts. I will check the dress code - there may have been something in it about offensive t shirts.

And does the presence of the knock shop behind the 5th green have anything to do with your determination to wrap i up after five holes?

How does Wednesday 8th suit people. PM me. Or would Friday 10th be preferable?

There is no way the landing area on 7 is fifty metres wide unless you use the same measuring wheel Brian uses on St Andrews Beach 13. 7 at NSW has plenty of width.  I am surprised a straight knocker like yourself doesn't think so.  15 is obviously much different, but in the context of the routing and its position within the round, it works very well.

At around 225m, assuming you are referring to 6 (below). Right click on Nearmap for the measuring tools. With fairways often double or more the width of NSW, this has a huge impact on playability and strategy. Although you are correct that as a straight knocker the narrowness of NSW does suit me.

There is a huge advantage to admiring the beach view then walking the rest of the way, perhaps throwing a ball or two onto the green for a little light relief.  This hole makes the 3rd at NSW look like RM West 6.  

Mark, it is definitely time for a return visit. Maybe we can do a day trip as unaccompanied guests.

You can't separate something built into the land from the land into which it was built... I know people from Melbourne have a limited appreciation for physical beauty, but do you think the Opera House would be one of the world's most photographed buildings if it was plonked down in the middle of Pitt St?

And that's just a building... which can actually be moved... this type of hypothetical question about separating a golf course from its location fits very much into the category of: If your aunt had a dick would she be your uncle?

Anthony, no one is saying it isn't a very attractive location. It is a welcome distraction. It is unfortunate though that once again you somehow seem to think you are able to prove a point by a cheap shot. Although you may be onto something - our differences may in fact be cultural, the sophistication of Melbourne against the crassness of Sydney.

Courses that hold major tournaments are commonly made worse in an effort to make them tougher, and protect par. The fairway mowing lines at NSW are very narrow in a lot of places. Given you have clearly been familar with the course over an extended period, have the fairways narrowed over the years and do you think the course would benefit by widening the fairway lines?

[Mark_F]

Mark, trackies are fine but if warm you may want to wear your old footy shorts. I will check the dress code - there may have been something in it about offensive t shirts.

Justin, I never played football.  I did martial arts.  I may wear my Gi.  That could also mean I don't need to hire security staff, and just go with a strand of garlic and a cross.

I must say that Motorino's menu looks quite enticing.  What an absolute tragedy it is located in the Western suburbs, where the subhumans on that side of the river wouldn't recognise the difference between Fior Di Latte and Cafe Latte.

[Bruce Hardie]

I can do either of those days although 10 would suit me better.

There are a few of us in the area that love motorino - although it can be very loud as it is family friendly - and I can take you plenty of other good places. I've been guesting with considerthesauce.net around a few places this side of the city although I'm not sure what your opinion is on pho and similar options.

Hi-vis safety gear seems to the be club colors based on my previous visits and views from the train.

[Scott Warren]

Justin,

The mowing lines at NSWGC have troubled me for a while, especially the decision to keep the greenfronts on 2 and 6 as rough.

But post-renos on 3 and 4, I notice they are keeping a lot more of the course as fairway, including the approaches to both the above greens. Other fairways feel wider as well.

While 2 still has significant issues, the ability to now bounce/run a ball up onto the green makes it a far more playable hole.

[Anthony Butler]

Justin,

The mowing lines at NSWGC have troubled me for a while, especially the decision to keep the greenfronts on 2 and 6 as rough.

But post-renos on 3 and 4, I notice they are keeping a lot more of the course as fairway, including the approaches to both the above greens. Other fairways feel wider as well.

While 2 still has significant issues, the ability to now bounce/run a ball up onto the green makes it a far more playable hole.

They are contemplating further work on No2. The reason the rough is grown up is because as a turtle-back green, the effective area in which you can hit the green is quite small... so as not to further penalize the player who misses the green they have let the grass grow to prevent the ball running too far down the hill... there's something of a pace of play issue as well... before they let it grow,  a lot of people thought they would be 10-15m right of the green and would find out the ball had run down the hill an gotten lost when they got up there. You don't want people walking back to the tee on the second hole during a medal round .

Scott... other than aesthetics, don't you think the 'mowing lines' conversation is something of irrelevant argument? The difference between your lie in most of the area of 'rough' areas and the fairway  at NSWGC is minimal at best. The only time a lie in the rough is problematic is when it's a little bare and sandy which would never be part of the fairway anyway. I agree there a certain holes where the playing corridor could be wider, but other than 15, can you really think of one where it affects your strategic options? It's reasonable enough to mention it, but given the limited ability of the club to do purposeful brush clearing, it's kind of like complaining about the weather. Although something conducive to a bushfire would help... you can't believe how much the course vistas opened up after the fire that went across the course in '98... we need something like that every dozen years of so.

If you go back to the Tom Watson adage that golf courses are meant to be enjoyed not ranked, it's hard for me to think of a course in Australia where people enjoy themselves more than NSW. I can think of only 2. Most of the overseas visitors I have taken to Sydney and Melbourne want a replay at NSW, not Kingston Heath, or the National... In fact a couple of my guests have actually walked off National Old and New before the end of their round.

Mark... frankly the crassness argument about Sydney is really old and I would think Melbournians might have had time to come up with something better in the 45 years since Menzies stepped down and the economic and political center of power shifted to Sydney. I really enjoy the fact that Melbourne is more European than Sydney and, despite some attempts to tart it up Sydney-style, it still retains more of it's original character than certain areas of Sydney.

[Mark_F]

And does the presence of the knock shop behind the 5th green have anything to do with your determination to wrap it up after five holes?

They have a knock shop there too?  Jeez, maybe it is in a better location than NSW. 

At around 225m, assuming you are referring to 6 (below). Right click on Nearmap for the measuring tools. With fairways often double or more the width of NSW, this has a huge impact on playability and strategy. Although you are correct that as a straight knocker the narrowness of NSW does suit me.

Justin, that is a very disingenuous image and measurement.  I imagine if you measured the fairways at NSW from behind the bushes like you did on Nat Old here, you would find 50 metre wide fairways too. And doesn't that 6th fairway slope off toward the rough at that point?  Means its functional width is a lot narrower than 50 metres, probably more on par, in fact, with the 38 metres of NSW' 7th hole.

Mark... frankly the crassness argument about Sydney is really old and I would think Melbournians might have had time to come up with something better in the 45 years since Menzies stepped down and the economic and political center of power shifted to Sydney.

Anthony,

I haven't made any cracks about Sydney.  I was, in fact, referring to the Western suburbs of Melbourne. I have absolutely no idea what part of Sydney NSW is considered part of, nor of its social characteristics.

[Justin Ryan]

Justin, that is a very disingenuous image and measurement.  I imagine if you measured the fairways at NSW from behind the bushes like you did on Nat Old here, you would find 50 metre wide fairways too. And doesn't that 6th fairway slope off toward the rough at that point?  Means its functional width is a lot narrower than 50 metres, probably more on par, in fact, with the 38 metres of NSW' 7th hole.

Mark, the line were drawn with reference to your earlier picture claiming tree encroachment. Feel free to draw it wherever you want. What it seems to show is that Trent Jones has been able to create a sense of visual intimidation for some at least even when the fairways are very wide. 8 is similarly wide.

If you go back to the Tom Watson adage that golf courses are meant to be enjoyed not ranked, it's hard for me to think of a course in Australia where people enjoy themselves more than NSW. I can think of only 2. Most of the overseas visitors I have taken to Sydney and Melbourne want a replay at NSW, not Kingston Heath, or the National... In fact a couple of my guests have actually walked off National Old and New before the end of their round.

First you rebut my arguments by pointing to the world ranking list.
Then you further nail me by pointing to the length of the waiting list.
And now you clobber me with the anecdotal accounts of some of your guests.

Phew, stick a fork in me, I'm done.

[Kevin Pallier]

We were asked to rank courses this year based on a criteria of design, condition / presentation and "the experience" ie: memorability. Am not sure how Brendan then dealt with each of the submissions to get the final ranking.

KP, could you (or anyone else that has it) list the criteria. From memory it was 60% design, 20% conditioning and 20% other stuff, like would you want to play it every week.

JR

The magazine provided us with a guideline to assist in determining our rankings

1) DESIGN: 60 points (variety of holes, shot values, playability for all golfers etc)
2) CONDITIONING: 20 points (overall presentation)
3) THE EXPERIENCE: 20 points (What is the experience like…memorable holes etc)

Interestingly, the Australian Golf Digest rankings will come out next week I believe

[Brian Walshe]

Scott... other than aesthetics, don't you think the 'mowing lines' conversation is something of irrelevant argument? The difference between your lie in most of the area of 'rough' areas and the fairway  at NSWGC is minimal at best.

Anthony,

If the difference between fairway and rough is minimal why have the mowing lines changed?  What was the club attempting to do by changing them?  On the subject of the weather, sorry the vegetation, if you think it needs a bit of clearing yet the club is unable to address it because of the limitations on what they can touch, why is the club planting so much additional material?  Surely given they can't control some areas they would be very conscious of not adding to the problem. 

One last question, is the course as it stands today better or worse than 10 and 20 years ago?

[Anthony Butler]

[Quote from: Mark Ferguson on January 28, 2012, 04:58:26 PM]
Although you may be onto something - our differences may in fact be cultural, the sophistication of Melbourne against the crassness of Sydney.
[/quote]

Anthony,

I haven't made any cracks about Sydney.  I was, in fact, referring to the Western suburbs of Melbourne.

So the line above appeared under your signature because someone hacked your GCA account... ? Really...

Justin... debating you on any subject is like trying to have a rational conversation with someone making $35,000 a year who plans on voting Republican in 2012.

[Mark_F]

So the line above appeared under your signature because someone hacked your GCA account... ? Really...

Anthony,

I don't know what you are on about.  I have made no such crack in this thread.  I have no idea where you dragged that one up from.  G

[Justin Ryan]

Myself and Mark will be engaging in our highly anticipated grudge match on Friday the 10th February at around 6:15 - 6:30.  It will be followed by a feed afterwards at Motorino, which Mark tells me has the best looking menu he has ever seen from a pizza joint.

This is an event not to be missed. If you can PM me I will make a booking for dinner.

It looks like footy shorts are out.



And here is a teaser of the first hole



It combines the muni style aesthetic of NSW with the freeways of The Lakes. A little bit of Sydney in Melbourne. It will be a treat.

The magazine provided us with a guideline to assist in determining our rankings

1) DESIGN: 60 points (variety of holes, shot values, playability for all golfers etc)
2) CONDITIONING: 20 points (overall presentation)
3) THE EXPERIENCE: 20 points (What is the experience like…memorable holes etc)

Interestingly, the Australian Golf Digest rankings will come out next week I believe

Thanks Kev, that last criteria sounds like 20 discretionary points. Was there more to it than that.

And you haven't been down here for a while.

[Anthony Butler]

So the line above appeared under your signature because someone hacked your GCA account... ? Really...

Anthony,

I don't know what you are on about.  I have made no such crack in this thread.  I have no idea where you dragged that one up from.  G

You should probably delete it from your post before you deny making it... you're just insulting everyone's intelligence otherwise.

[Mark_F]

You should probably delete it from your post before you deny making it... you're just insulting everyone's intelligence otherwise.

Only yours, Anthony.  On this thread, I have made no such quote.  The fact that the quote you attribute to me doesn't have the correct code makes me suspicious you have written it yourself, although I am at a loss to understand why.

It is true I have a very low opinion of NSW - the state - its population consisting entirely of sodomites, pederasts or people with a massive inferiority complex, but I haven't bagged NSW in this thread no matter what sort of harmful smear you are willing to paint me with.

[Anthony Butler]

You should probably delete it from your post before you deny making it... you're just insulting everyone's intelligence otherwise.

Only yours, Anthony.  On this thread, I have made no such quote.  The fact that the quote you attribute to me doesn't have the correct code makes me suspicious you have written it yourself, although I am at a loss to understand why.

It is true I have a very low opinion of NSW - the state - its population consisting entirely of sodomites, pederasts or people with a massive inferiority complex, but I haven't bagged NSW in this thread no matter what sort of harmful smear you are willing to paint me with.

Mark, you should come over here and run for the Republican nomination... The exit polls from tonite's Florida Republican primary indicate that 40% of voters don't believe Romney or Gingrich is the right guy to lie to them for the next 4 years...   

[Mark Chaplin]

Anthony just goes to show exit polls are a total waste of someone's time and money. Only 20% of voters went for the two no names that's half of what they predicted.

[Matthew Mollica]

Anthony,

What do you make of Brian's post and questions above?
I'm interested as to your perspective, given you've played NSW more than most here.

MM

[Mark_F]

Mark, you should come over here and run for the Republican nomination... The exit polls from tonite's Florida Republican primary indicate that 40% of voters don't believe Romney or Gingrich is the right guy to lie to them for the next 4 years...    

Republican!  First you attribute a quote to me that I have never made, and now you smear me with that vile label. 

You NSW members sure know how to stick the boot in.  You need to come back to Sydney.  The grubbiness of life in the USA is rubbing off on you.

[Justin Ryan]

The preparations for the grudge match are progressing well, with a booking for 12 on Friday 10th at 8:30PM at Motorino after golf.

The magazine provided us with a guideline to assist in determining our rankings

1) DESIGN: 60 points (variety of holes, shot values, playability for all golfers etc)
2) CONDITIONING: 20 points (overall presentation)
3) THE EXPERIENCE: 20 points (What is the experience like…memorable holes etc)

Interestingly, the Australian Golf Digest rankings will come out next week I believe

It is clear that Golf Australia have made a serious effort to focus their rankings on the quality of the course, not the extraneous stuff like clubhouses, prestige, history as a tournament venue, etc.

Could panellists (or anyone else that wants to have a go) please tell me how they rated Metropolitan (9) against Ranfurlie (59) using the above criteria as an example.

I know people from Melbourne have a limited appreciation for physical beauty

Anthony, unable to respond in a constructive manner on this thread, you instead resorted to an array of irrelevancies, nonsense and personal attacks. The asinine quote above was one of them. I responded to it with the slightly flip.

Although you may be onto something - our differences may in fact be cultural, the sophistication of Melbourne against the crassness of Sydney.

Having raised the topic, you followed it up with

Mark... frankly the crassness argument about Sydney is really old and I would think Melbournians might have had time to come up with something better in the 45 years since Menzies stepped down and the economic and political center of power shifted to Sydney. I really enjoy the fact that Melbourne is more European than Sydney and, despite some attempts to tart it up Sydney-style, it still retains more of it's original character than certain areas of Sydney.

Having wrongly attributed the quote to Mark, you then compounded your error by rather extraordinarily calling him a liar and imply he is a Republican.  

You should probably delete it from your post before you deny making it... you're just insulting everyone's intelligence otherwise.

Mark, you should come over here and run for the Republican nomination... The exit polls from tonite's Florida Republican primary indicate that 40% of voters don't believe Romney or Gingrich is the right guy to lie to them for the next 4 years...    

Now I have called Mark many things over the years, including, sexist, racist and misogynist, but he is not a liar. I would respectfully suggest you apologise to Mark, have a good lie down and consider your response to the post below from Brian Walshe.

Anthony,

If the difference between fairway and rough is minimal why have the mowing lines changed?  What was the club attempting to do by changing them?  On the subject of the weather, sorry the vegetation, if you think it needs a bit of clearing yet the club is unable to address it because of the limitations on what they can touch, why is the club planting so much additional material?  Surely given they can't control some areas they would be very conscious of not adding to the problem.  

One last question, is the course as it stands today better or worse than 10 and 20 years ago?

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