Can we lower the cost of playing golf?

[Brent Hutto]

Pat,

The only course in my area that has consistently produced an operating profit for its entire history charges (last time I checked a few years ago) from $15 weekdays to around $25 weekends to walk. They have zero debt service because the course was built by the owner of the land it's built on back in the 70's. They offer a minimal clubhouse and pro shop (i.e. one lady behind the snack bar and one guy in the pro shop) but do a pretty decent job of course maintenance with a staff of something like three full timers and some part time help.

Now the owner is a cheapskate who's no fun to work for and the course gets terribly crowded on prime-season weekends. And we do play golf 12 months/year hereabouts. But year in an year out, decade in and decade out he has broken even or (typically) turned a profit with no subsidy. Just a bunch of rounds and not spending a penny, anywhere that isn't dragged out of his pocket by force of necessity.

But presumably you might prefer not to play there. It is not service oriented. It is totally having the course open 364 days a year and in good condition as many of those as possible.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat,

The only course in my area that has consistently produced an operating profit for its entire history charges (last time I checked a few years ago) from $15 weekdays to around $25 weekends to walk.

Brent,  How do you know that the operation produces a profit ?

They have zero debt service because the course was built by the owner of the land it's built on back in the 70's.

And you would hold that out as the "normal" situation when it comes to golf courses ?


They offer a minimal clubhouse and pro shop (i.e. one lady behind the snack bar and one guy in the pro shop) but do a pretty decent job of course maintenance with a staff of something like three full timers and some part time help.

No PRO for lessons ?
No Superintendent with an agronomic education ?
A Green crew of 3 for a full time 364 day a year operation.
Do they have a range ?
9 holes or 18 holes ?
What's the name and location of this golf club ?

Now the owner is a cheapskate who's no fun to work for and the course gets terribly crowded on prime-season weekends.
And we do play golf 12 months/year hereabouts. But year in an year out, decade in and decade out he has broken even or (typically) turned a profit with no subsidy.

How would you know that if it's a private owner ?

Just a bunch of rounds and not spending a penny, anywhere that isn't dragged out of his pocket by force of necessity.

How many rounds a year ?

But presumably you might prefer not to play there. It is not service oriented. It is totally having the course open 364 days a year and in good condition as many of those as possible.

A staff of 3, open year round, terribly crowded in peak season, with an owner who's a penny pincher and you claim it's in good condition.

What's the name and location of the course ?

[Jud_T]

Jeepers, one is lucky to play 9 months out of 12!

9 months?  you've been spending too much time over the pond my friend.  The real season's 7 months.  Sure you may get a few rounds in before or after, but that's silly season golf.  Of course with global warming, who knows  ?

[Jud_T]

Pat,

When's the last time you played a public course that had a peak rate of less than $40 to walk?

[Brent Hutto]

Charwood Golf Club in West Columbia, SC.

And I'm familiar with their operation because a friend of mine worked there for quite a long time. And I've played golf there a couple thousand times, mostly back when I lived right down the street. I watched the owner building the course with his own tractor back in the 70's (many years before I took up playing the game) in what had formerly been pastures and scrubby woodlands.

Unless things have changed in the last several years, things like lessons and junior golf programs are staffed by outside PGA professionals who have an arrangement with the owner to be located there and run their own deals.

Back when I used to play there, they had a full-time superintendent but the key was an assistant super/groundskeeper who worked unbelievably long hours for (my guess) not correspondingly large pay. Lots of part-timers to run the mowers each morning, etc. Heck back when I started they did not even irrigate the fairways.

Good condition is relative. Most people on this group would probably find the greens to be quite slow and soft, not necessarily mowed daily.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Charwood Golf Club in West Columbia, SC.

And I'm familiar with their operation because a friend of mine worked there for quite a long time.


And, the penny pincher owner opened up the books to him ?  ?  ?

How many rounds per year are played there ?

And I've played golf there a couple thousand times, mostly back when I lived right down the street. I watched the owner building the course with his own tractor back in the 70's (many years before I took up playing the game) in what had formerly been pastures and scrubby woodlands.

Unless things have changed in the last several years, things like lessons and junior golf programs are staffed by outside PGA professionals who have an arrangement with the owner to be located there and run their own deals.

Back when I used to play there, they had a full-time superintendent but the key was an assistant super/groundskeeper who worked unbelievably long hours for (my guess) not correspondingly large pay. Lots of part-timers to run the mowers each morning, etc. Heck back when I started they did not even irrigate the fairways.

Do they irrigate them today ?

Good condition is relative. Most people on this group would probably find the greens to be quite slow and soft, not necessarily mowed daily.

What nearby public courses does it compete with ?

[Brent Hutto]

I think if you want a complete financial and market analysis for them, you'd probably be better off with someone beside me to do the research.

[Patrick_Mucci]

I think if you want a complete financial and market analysis for them, you'd probably be better off with someone beside me to do the research.

Brent,

You can't state that the owner makes a profit and then when asked for the supporting information, claim that someone else would have to supply that information.

Either you mispoke or were guilty of wishful thinking.

[Brent Hutto]

You have the option of disbelieving me if you're so inclined. Hard to imagine this guy would stay in business for 35 years and still be charging $18 green fees if he'd been losing money but maybe they've been losing their ass for two generations and just keep at it because they have a bunch of money they want to get rid of.

Or just maybe in Columbia, SC you can do perfectly well charging less than $50/round to play golf.

[Patrick_Mucci]

You have the option of disbelieving me if you're so inclined. Hard to imagine this guy would stay in business for 35 years and still be charging $18 green fees if he'd been losing money but maybe they've been losing their ass for two generations and just keep at it because they have a bunch of money they want to get rid of.

Brent,

So your statement regarding profitability was a guess.

If the land has been in his family for decades, perhaps he's just looking to help pay the carrying costs by operating an enterprise that brings in revenue, or maybe write off certain expenses.

Or just maybe in Columbia, SC you can do perfectly well charging less than $50/round to play golf.

What other clubs in Columbia, SC charge less than $ 50 per round ?

[Brent Hutto]

Heck on weekdays the erstwhile private course Cobblestone Park (originally University Club) charges $38/round including cart. But that development has been in receivership for years and they're just trying to generate enough revenue to keep the grass mowed.

The closest course to Charwood is called Indian River, about four miles as the crow flies. Last I heard they were around $40 weekdays and $50 weekends. Nicer course, allegedly, although I do not prefer it as it tends to be wet and it's a poor walk (not that they'd let me walk it anyway).

The other public courses are probably mostly in that same $40-$50 range close in to town. Or they were last time I checked but I don't ever play them as the privates are nicer. Out in the far suburbs beyond Charwood there are a couple others in Charwood's general price range but they are much scruffier and I doubt very much they've ever turned a profit, at least not since I've been playing golf.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Brent & Pat

I think this may be a case of the owner keeping 2 sets of books. I presume with green fees so low there are probably a good number of rounds paid for in cash.  

There are many courses built on family farm land where land costs do not exist. I'm thinking Wyncote and Macoby Run in the Philly 'burbs and they are   still  operated by the family. i'll guess that cash rounds do not show on their books either.

[Mark Chaplin]

There was a spell a few years back where big villains were getting into pay and play golf. An empty course course still wash a lot of cash greenfee revenue. They a) wanted cash, which they had in bucket loads and b) definitely wanted to declare it and pay tax on what was now clean money.

[Mike_Young]

There was a spell a few years back where big villains were getting into pay and play golf. An empty course course still wash a lot of cash greenfee revenue. They a) wanted cash, which they had in bucket loads and b) definitely wanted to declare it and pay tax on what was now clean money.

And that still happens today...

[Doug Siebert]

At $ 25 per round, how are you going to pay for the club to operate ?
You have green, clubhouse, pro shop and staffing costs.
Do you really think that $ 25 rounds will support that club.
You'd need 100,000 rounds in a season.
And, think of the cost of wear and tear on a golf course that has 100,000 rounds

Maybe where you live in the NE, but that's not the case in the midwest.  There are several good 18 hole non-muni courses that you can walk on weekdays for under $25 within a half hour of where I live.  If you want a course that will satisfy the casual golfer while not exciting GCA members, you can find courses that are under $20 to walk on weekends.  I don't know how many rounds they do, but based on the play I'd bet 20,000 rounds a year is quite optimistic for my favorite of the bunch (of the good ones)  It isn't a top 100 layout, but it is actually quite a clever and quirky course built 10-15 years ago (first one nine, then the other) that would satisfy all but the stuffiest GCA members for both its architecture and its conditioning.

I have no idea what the books look like, it could be losing money for all I know, and there weren't acquisition costs for the land (the guy who owns it owned the land previously, it was pasture and perhaps some crops)  But even if this one was to be losing money, as I said there are more than one of these around, proving it is quite doable, though perhaps not where you live.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Doug,

It shouldn't be difficult to find out the exact number of rounds per year at the course you reference.
I'd appreciate it if you'd inquire.

But, let's accept the 20,000 you indicated.

That's $ 500,000 per year..

I can't speak for club and green budget's in the area you reference, but, I'm hard pressed to think that a course can be reasonably maintained in the Midwest on $ 500,000 per year.

What do you think ?

In the Metropolitan NY area and in South Eastern Florida, between $ 1,000,000 and $ 2,000,000 would seem to be the norm for 18 holes.

[Mike_Young]

Pat,
I don't know the exact number but I would wager that at least 12000 of the 16500 course have a manintenance budget under $325000 a year and I would bet 8000 are under $275,000.  Let me see if I can find that info somewhere.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat,
I don't know the exact number but I would wager that at least 12000 of the 16500 course have a manintenance budget under $325000 a year and I would bet 8000 are under $275,000.  Let me see if I can find that info somewhere.

Mike,

I don't think there's a course in the NY Met area that comes within 3 times that.

[Mike_Young]

Pat,
I don't know the exact number but I would wager that at least 12000 of the 16500 course have a manintenance budget under $325000 a year and I would bet 8000 are under $275,000.  Let me see if I can find that info somewhere.

Mike,

I don't think there's a course in the NY Met area that comes within 3 times that.

Agree

[jeffwarne]

Pat,
I don't know the exact number but I would wager that at least 12000 of the 16500 course have a manintenance budget under $325000 a year and I would bet 8000 are under $275,000.  Let me see if I can find that info somewhere.

Mike,

I don't think there's a course in the NY Met area that comes within 3 times that.

Agree

I would disagree

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat,
I don't know the exact number but I would wager that at least 12000 of the 16500 course have a manintenance budget under $325000 a year and I would bet 8000 are under $275,000.  Let me see if I can find that info somewhere.

Mike,

I don't think there's a course in the NY Met area that comes within 3 times that.

Agree

I would disagree

OK, name some courses in the NY Met area with green budgets under $ 825,000.

[Mike_Young]

Pat,
I don't know the exact number but I would wager that at least 12000 of the 16500 course have a manintenance budget under $325000 a year and I would bet 8000 are under $275,000.  Let me see if I can find that info somewhere.

Mike,

I don't think there's a course in the NY Met area that comes within 3 times that.

Agree

I would disagree

OK, name some courses in the NY Met area with green budgets under $ 825,000.

OK..you guys know NY much much better than myself.  I'm gonna sit back and watch this.

[Doug Siebert]

Doug,

It shouldn't be difficult to find out the exact number of rounds per year at the course you reference.
I'd appreciate it if you'd inquire.

But, let's accept the 20,000 you indicated.

That's $ 500,000 per year..

I can't speak for club and green budget's in the area you reference, but, I'm hard pressed to think that a course can be reasonably maintained in the Midwest on $ 500,000 per year.

What do you think ?

In the Metropolitan NY area and in South Eastern Florida, between $ 1,000,000 and $ 2,000,000 would seem to be the norm for 18 holes.

Patrick, that was the weekday rate, I think weekends are $28 or $30 to walk, can't remember.  Of course, you realize that 99% of people ride there, because it has an 80 foot ridge that gives it its name (Saddleback Ridge) and you go up and down that ridge six times during the round.  So you probably are getting close to $1 million when you include the weekends and the cart revenue.  It has a range so they probably make a bit from that, and has a small bar and seems to do decent business on that which no doubt helps.

It also has only two bunkers (and I'm not sure why it has one of them, since I've never seen anyone in it) which should help maintenance somewhat.

Plus, this is Iowa, I'm sure labor and everything else related to maintaining a golf course costs much more in the MetNY area, and may cost more in SE Florida as well (it costs much more there if only because you have 12 months of maintenance in Florida, versus 7-8 months it is open here, and probably not a lot of fairway/rough mowing required for the first few / last few weeks of the season)

[Mark Chaplin]

Patrick if clubs don't control costs to a sensible level isn't that why NY Met area golf is so expensive?

[Tom_Doak]

OK, name some courses in the NY Met area with green budgets under $ 825,000.

I don't have the facts on it, but I would be surprised if the city of Stamford, CT spends more than $800,000 per year on Sterling Farms, the municipal course I grew up playing.  If they do, they've lost their minds, and Geoff Cornish is rolling over in his grave.

Also, what about the courses like Calverton Links and Sag Harbor, out on the east end of Long Island?  Surely they don't spend that much?