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Sean_A

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Re: Can we lower the cost of playing golf?
« Reply #75 on: December 12, 2012, 11:41:19 AM »
You lot are arguing around the thin end of the stick.  Private US clubs is not anything near the first place to look for saving money in golf.  Why would you target the richest and smallest percentage of golfers?  If that is what this thread is about, its a waste of time.  The way for clubs to save money is entirely a club by club decision based on their culture and set of problems. 

Sean,

I'm not so sure about your categorization of members of private clubs being the smallest percentage of golfers.
I don't consider someone who plays golf once or twice or four times a year a "golfer"

If it's not a "private" club in the U.S. it's either a municipal course or a course open to the public that's owned by private interests.

If it's the latter, why would the owner's of a course that's open to the public want to cut their revenue and profits ?

If it's a municipal course, please tell us how to go about reducing costs where no ancillary activities/services exist


Pat

That just it, for a lot of public courses, there is very little room to cut costs.  Golf is cheap!  I am sure clever folks can find a way to save a bit here and there, but the big issue is more about attracting more golfers.  I surmise that the vast majority of those complaining about the cost of golf aren't looking hard enough or are unwilling to drop a few steps to cheap golf.  Worrying about the guy who wants to cut his dues from $500 to $400 is not where this is issue should be centered.  Thats golf at level the vast majority of golfers would never even contemplate entertaining.  I think what folks are really saying is how can we play excellent/well maintained courses for less money.

Ciao 
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Brent Hutto

Re: Can we lower the cost of playing golf?
« Reply #76 on: December 12, 2012, 12:05:57 PM »
In the original question posed at the head of this thread, there was reference to "the consumer" and how courses are built and maintained to suit his expectations. That formulation seems to support Sean's take on the question. Someone spending a couple hundred thousand dollars over a lifetime of membership in a full-service Country Club can't really be reduced to consideration as a golf "consumer" in the same sense at the daily-fee player or member of a semi-private course in the hinterlands.

If some place like Pine Valley or Riviera could cut their course maintenance budget in half over the next couple years, would that have any meaningful effect on how many members they attract, retain or bring to the game? High-end private clubs are going to thrive, struggle or fail based on demographics and a wide range of non-golf things that are important to their memberships. Hard to see how much traction "lower[ing] the cost of playing golf" is going to have on their future health.

I think this particular thread is definitely in the realm of someone who decides on a weekly or seasonal basis whether to play, how much to play and where to play based on how much it's going cost him per round and how much fun those rounds will be. The answers to these questions have little to do with how many separate kitchens are available to the grandchildren of the 1% at elite clubs.

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Can we lower the cost of playing golf?
« Reply #77 on: December 12, 2012, 01:25:01 PM »
Sean,

There's more than a pure dollar cost issue, there's the time issue.

ie, If rounds could be compressed from 5 hours to 3 hours you'd attract more golfers who don't play due to the constraints on their time.

And, for operators, with rounds at 3 hours they could accomodate more golfers, creating more revenue, which might lead to lower prices.

When it comes to the manufacturers, aren't we, the golfers, the culprits ?

A new driver or putter comes out and we rush to buy it.
How do you reduce the cost of equipment when the consumer is willing to spend on products which may or may not produce any meaningful incremental benefit ?

The game and the challenge of the game is the inherent lure, there's nothing that should be done to alter the game in order to attract more golfers.

Reducing "time to play" would attract more golfers.

Hard dollar costs to play not associated with time to play are another matter.

Ivan Morris

Re: Can we lower the cost of playing golf?
« Reply #78 on: December 12, 2012, 01:34:05 PM »
Patrick - Of course, it's not THAT simple but my suggestion would be a good start. Golf loses far too many of its 'trained' recruits. Apart from the cost, the length of time it takes to play 18-holes is a huge turn off. The most important issue of all is to roll back the ball. Everything  starts from there. Read Life As A Way of Golf to see what exactly I mean.

Brent Hutto

Re: Can we lower the cost of playing golf?
« Reply #79 on: December 12, 2012, 01:59:15 PM »
I can't see a shorter ball having more than a trivial effect on length of rounds. Unless you want to roll it back 30-40% then at most people might move up one set of tees. If that. Sure it might lop 5-10 minutes off the typical round but that's not going to keep anybody from quitting the game.

When I started golf in the early 90's the people I saw either played Pinnacle type distance balls (mostly) or a few of them used Balatas or later the TF Strata/Titleist Professional type "tour" balls. People certainly hit it shorter then and maybe the courses hadn't had the way back tees added that are now available. But I still recall most public courses at weekends taking the same 4:30-4:50 type of rounds as today.

If *everyone* at a particular golf course expected to play in 3 or 3-1/2 hours then that's what would happen. No matter what the spec on the golf ball. But if even one in four or one in five players on the course expect the game to take around 4-1/2 hours and want to emulate the crap they see on TV then everyone's round is going to take that long. It's a social norm that is only weakly affected by details like how many way-back tee boxes the course offers or how far their ball flies off the driver.

But there's a stronger effect, as far as I can see, from two things. The amount of ball-swallowing rough that's in play and the wasted distance between holes when no golf is being played but the player still has to walk or drive his cart. Water hazards and fast greens are also possible contributors. So it sounds like what we're talking about is compact courses (i.e. not meandering through housing developments or wetlands) where the rough is either thin or is trimmed back aggressively and where there is not several million dollars of debt being serviced (meaning green fees of under $30-$35). Then we wait very, very, very, very patiently for the social norms to change and for everyone to start setting out with a 3-hour round in mind.

Except for trimming the rough, I don't see anything in that recipe that is likely to happen on new courses or on the majority of recent vintage public courses.

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Can we lower the cost of playing golf?
« Reply #80 on: December 12, 2012, 02:14:15 PM »
Brent,

Private clubs don't represent 1 % of golfers.

If you examine the number of public (Municipal or Private Owned) compared to the number of surrounding private courses, you'll see that the ratio is rather significant, 10 to 1 and greater.

Since there are only so many daylight hours, I think you'll find, in the greater Metropolitan areas, that private/semi-private golfers far outnumber public golfers in terms of rounds played.

Since every private club I know has a kitchen and clubhouse staff, addressing those issues in terms of cost is germane.

Forgeting about equipment and time to play issues, how would you reduce the cost of golf at the municipal or public access level ?

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Can we lower the cost of playing golf?
« Reply #81 on: December 12, 2012, 05:00:20 PM »
Sean & Brent,

San Diego is going to spend $ 7,000,000 to renovate the North Course at Torrey Pines.
Torrey Pines is a public/municipal course, so, how do you envision that the cost of golf will go down for future play at Torrey Pines ?

Pete Lavallee

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Re: Can we lower the cost of playing golf?
« Reply #82 on: December 12, 2012, 06:16:28 PM »
When did the City of SD ever say their goal was to lower the cost of a round of golf for SD residents?
"...one inoculated with the virus must swing a golf-club or perish."  Robert Hunter

Matt Day

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Re: Can we lower the cost of playing golf?
« Reply #83 on: December 12, 2012, 07:00:54 PM »
as an example of the cost increases in the past five years to run an Australian 36 hole municipal course, our fee increases basically only cover cost increases. Fee increases of 50 cents for nine hole and a $1 for 18 are the norm. We run on 12 grounds staff, a  superintendent and part time mechanic

- annual power bill is up from $120,000 to $170,000 in five years. We have had a number of years with signifcant tariff increases
- chemical/fertilisers costs up
- labour rates up on average 4% per annum
- dividend paid to the Town up by $200,000

What we have tried to do offer better value at off peak times with additional twilight rates, kids play free with adults at twilight etc.

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Can we lower the cost of playing golf?
« Reply #84 on: December 12, 2012, 07:30:16 PM »
When did the City of SD ever say their goal was to lower the cost of a round of golf for SD residents?

Pete,

Isn't that inherent in municipal ownership, to provide golf at the lowest possible cost to it's residents ?

Jim Sherma

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Re: Can we lower the cost of playing golf?
« Reply #85 on: December 12, 2012, 07:54:27 PM »
When did the City of SD ever say their goal was to lower the cost of a round of golf for SD residents?

Pete,

Isn't that inherent in municipal ownership, to provide golf at the lowest possible cost to it's residents ?


The Muni that I grew up on funded itself and a decent part of the parks budget. If the goal was to minimize cost to residents the fees could have been lower if it was a stand alone budget item. Admittedly, the fees were quite low for resident players and back then (early 80's) the tee sheet was very full.

Pete Lavallee

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Re: Can we lower the cost of playing golf?
« Reply #86 on: December 12, 2012, 08:05:10 PM »
When did the City of SD ever say their goal was to lower the cost of a round of golf for SD residents?

Pete,

Isn't that inherent in municipal ownership, to provide golf at the lowest possible cost to it's residents ?


You would think that should be their focus, but I can asure you that filling the City coffers takes precedent!
"...one inoculated with the virus must swing a golf-club or perish."  Robert Hunter

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Can we lower the cost of playing golf?
« Reply #87 on: December 12, 2012, 08:15:39 PM »
Pete,

These are interesting times.

It's my belief, that inherently, a municipal golf course should be for the town/county residents, at the lowest possible cost.

But, like the gasoline tax, dedicated and intended to repair roads and bridges, the revenue has been diverted from it's dedicated purpose into the general treasury to offset costs for other projects or inefficient operations.

Rather than plow the profits back into the golf course, build reserves, or lower the "costs to play", they're going to spend it elsewhere.

Isn't that what's systemically wrong with public finance ?

Bill Gayne

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Re: Can we lower the cost of playing golf?
« Reply #88 on: December 12, 2012, 08:41:10 PM »
I have not read the majority of posts but my immediate reaction is that it's in private country/golf clubs best long term interest to keep cost at munis as low as possible. The muni is where many beginners (children and adults) learn the game and provide the future new members for privates. I'm guessing very few privates can survive on private legacies and so their long term success is the conversion of muni golfers.

Mike_Young

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Re: Can we lower the cost of playing golf?
« Reply #89 on: December 12, 2012, 09:29:42 PM »
We will lower the cost or it will not continue...NOT CAN WE LOWER IT...
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Doug Siebert

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Re: Can we lower the cost of playing golf?
« Reply #90 on: December 12, 2012, 09:43:35 PM »
Bill,

Not munis necessarily but the low end public courses in general.  Whether someone is learning the game at age 10 or learning it at age 50, paying $50+ per round is not always going to be seen as reasonable.

There's a little nine holer cow pasture type course around here that has a "couples day" every other Wednesday afternoon/evening which I thought was an interesting idea that more places could explore.  A lot of female golfers I know who aren't all that good like golf but don't play all that much because of the attitude of some of the "regulars" that every course has.  You know, the guys who play all the time and think they own the place, and complain if they get held up by anyone - even for a few seconds - but think it is their right to play at their own pace if a twosome comes up behind them.  By having a couples day where they only let couples play as twosomes they gave those female golfers a place to play without the pressure of having a bunch of good (or think they're good) golfers waiting behind them and judging them.  Ideally by playing more some will get enough interest in the game to improve and/or feel more comfortable playing in front of others and participate more in golf outside of couples day.

That's just a small solution for a small part of the participation problem, but that's the sort of original (at least to me, it may be common elsewhere) thinking that's required.
My hovercraft is full of eels.

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Can we lower the cost of playing golf?
« Reply #91 on: December 13, 2012, 07:35:10 AM »
Doug,

$ 50 equates to $ 10 to $ 12.50 an hour for a four to five hour round of golf.

That's not a high cost for entertainment and recreation.

Given the trend in fixed and variable operating costs, as described by Matt Day and others, how much below $ 50 should that green fee be ?

Brent Hutto

Re: Can we lower the cost of playing golf?
« Reply #92 on: December 13, 2012, 07:49:47 AM »
For 50 bucks you can take your wife and two kids to a matinee movie, as long as you don't get carried away with drinks and popcorn. How often can a man with the US median household income of around $45,000 afford to take his wife and kids to the theater? Maybe once a month or so?

There's no "should" for pricing. We're discussing how to attract and retain golfers. Obviously if a typical round costs more than a median income person can afford to spend on recreation every week then median-income golfers are going to play less than once a week. There are a lot of people in this country who will absolutely play more golf at $25/round than they will at $50/round.

It's fine to dismiss that sort of calculus when your household income is 4x-5x (or more) times the norm but surely we don't want to arrive at the point where nobody with a "normal" income can afford to play a weekly round of golf. Yet that is the direction the pricing of the game has been trending for a couple of decades. Possibly the current shakeout will reverse that trend, possibly not. But I think somewhere under $50/round is definitely in the discussion of "the cost of golf".

I sometimes have to be reminded of the extent to which this forum focuses on the upper tiers of golf course, clubs and golfers. Then again discussing architecture of USA courses that can afford to operate on $25 green fees probably doesn't offer a lot of scope for waxing eloquent on hairy bunkers and single vs. double bagging caddies...

Jud_T

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Re: Can we lower the cost of playing golf?
« Reply #93 on: December 13, 2012, 07:59:12 AM »
There's no question that the cost of golf is a major impediment to the average Joe playing.  We had a 70 degree day a couple weekends ago, which was a record I believe for that December day in Chicago.  Went out to a local muni with some buddies to take advantage of the weather.  They had a special $15 winter rate to walk.  The place was packed with all manor of working men and women.  There clearly is a disconnect between the courses we discuss here and our feeble attempts to grow the game.  $1 a hole is what we need if you really want to see the game grow IMO.  Might not crack the GCA top 100, but who cares?
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Sean_A

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Re: Can we lower the cost of playing golf?
« Reply #94 on: December 13, 2012, 12:40:01 PM »
For 50 bucks you can take your wife and two kids to a matinee movie, as long as you don't get carried away with drinks and popcorn. How often can a man with the US median household income of around $45,000 afford to take his wife and kids to the theater? Maybe once a month or so?

There's no "should" for pricing. We're discussing how to attract and retain golfers. Obviously if a typical round costs more than a median income person can afford to spend on recreation every week then median-income golfers are going to play less than once a week. There are a lot of people in this country who will absolutely play more golf at $25/round than they will at $50/round.

It's fine to dismiss that sort of calculus when your household income is 4x-5x (or more) times the norm but surely we don't want to arrive at the point where nobody with a "normal" income can afford to play a weekly round of golf. Yet that is the direction the pricing of the game has been trending for a couple of decades. Possibly the current shakeout will reverse that trend, possibly not. But I think somewhere under $50/round is definitely in the discussion of "the cost of golf".

I sometimes have to be reminded of the extent to which this forum focuses on the upper tiers of golf course, clubs and golfers. Then again discussing architecture of USA courses that can afford to operate on $25 green fees probably doesn't offer a lot of scope for waxing eloquent on hairy bunkers and single vs. double bagging caddies...

Brent

I am not sure the trend as you suggest is totally accurate.  I surmise that in the past three decades a lot more expensive to play courses have been built, but that the same number (more or less) of cheap courses exist.  I don't see cheap golf opportunities down as much I think expensive golf opportunities are up.  This is why I don't buy "average" pricing for golf.  This is one case where average is meaningless - if my theory is accurate.  Well, that is the conclusion I have reached for Michigan.  If anything, the pricing for the expensive courses is moving more toward the cheap range then the other way around.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Brent Hutto

Re: Can we lower the cost of playing golf?
« Reply #95 on: December 13, 2012, 12:49:44 PM »
Until the downturn, the options for an under-$30 or even under-$40 round of golf in my area really did seem to be diminishing. Some pretty basic public courses (overwatered housing development "green spaces" basically) were requiring carts then creeping up into the $40 weekdays, $50-something weekends kind of bracket for green fee plus (required) cart.

But you're correct in that some of it has abated in the last 3-4 years. And some formerly private clubs are now playable for under $40 with cart. Places that five years ago would have cost a couple hundred a month or more in dues.

But the ones in what I'd consider the "most anyone can afford" range of $20-$25 to walk are still few in number and have deteriorated somewhat in quality of late.

Sean_A

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Re: Can we lower the cost of playing golf?
« Reply #96 on: December 13, 2012, 01:00:39 PM »
 Brent

I guess we can only speak from experience.  My experience in Michigan is telling me golf is cheaper than 10 years ago.  My experience is also telling me that prices for the cheap courses have remained fairly steady.  I think it was the newer courses that started out above $40ish, rather than the $25ish courses moving into the $40-$50 bracket.  But then, Michigan does have a huge and deep range of courses to choose from.  When Michigan was boasting of 2nd, third or 4th highest course ratio per resident in the country it was more than obvious to me that the market would be saturated.  Jeepers, one is lucky to play 9 months out of 12!

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Brent Hutto

Re: Can we lower the cost of playing golf?
« Reply #97 on: December 13, 2012, 01:13:16 PM »
As far as I can tell the golf cart has become near ubiquitous in my area. So some of the courses that used to charge a $25 green fee and let you walk for that price now charge $25 green fee plus $15 for the cart and (at least if you want to play at weekends during prime season) require the cart. Now I must say that because of this I now play almost all my golf on private courses, mostly my own club. So it may be that in the last couple years they've started backing off on the cart requirement.

It's been one of those damned counterproductive trends that just drive me crazy. When the economic going gets tough, put the players in carts (that must be purchased and gassed up) and charge more for the privilege whether they want to or not. Of course most of them want to which is how the trend gets started in the first place.

I spent my first decade of golf playing at a decent public course. Walk any time you like for 20 bucks or play <$100/month then walk any time you like for no extra charge. It was along about 2002 or 2003 they briefly decided that to play before 11:00am in the spring and summer you'd have to ride in a cart and play an extra $15 for it. Thereby driving me into the private-course market against my cheapskate nature. Mind you, about half of the private clubs (non member-owned) in town also required carts during prime times.

The irony was that club reversed their cart policy about the time I left and moved private. Go figure. But still, that possibly a micro trend in just my neck of the woods and maybe I should not generalize from my own skewed observations.

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Can we lower the cost of playing golf?
« Reply #98 on: December 13, 2012, 01:58:09 PM »
For 50 bucks you can take your wife and two kids to a matinee movie, as long as you don't get carried away with drinks and popcorn. How often can a man with the US median household income of around $45,000 afford to take his wife and kids to the theater? Maybe once a month or so?

There's no "should" for pricing. We're discussing how to attract and retain golfers.

NO, we're discussion how to lower the cost of playing golf



Obviously if a typical round costs more than a median income person can afford to spend on recreation every week then median-income golfers are going to play less than once a week. There are a lot of people in this country who will absolutely play more golf at $25/round than they will at $50/round.

At $ 25 per round, how are you going to pay for the club to operate ?
You have green, clubhouse, pro shop and staffing costs.
Do you really think that $ 25 rounds will support that club.
You'd need 100,000 rounds in a season.
And, think of the cost of wear and tear on a golf course that has 100,000 rounds

You have a limited season in the northern part of the country.
Doesn't Sand Hills close in October and open in April or May due to weather.
Let's say you have an 8 month season, April thru November.
How will $ 25 rounds enable a club to function ?

IF tee times were 8 minutes apart, from 7:00 am to 4:00 pm and play was at 4 hours, at optimal capacity and efficiency you could accomodate
32 golfers an hour for 9 hours, that's 288 golfers a day, or $ 7,200 in daily revenue at $ 25 per golfer.  At 243 days (8 months, at capacity, every day, no rain outs, or cold snaps or 100 degree/humid days, that's 69,984 rounds) that's $ 1,749,600 in revenue. And you think that you can operate a golf course with that degree of activity, for $ 1,749,600 in revenue ?  ?  ?

You're dreaming and not dealing with real world numbers, which are well below the numbers I posted above.


It's fine to dismiss that sort of calculus when your household income is 4x-5x (or more) times the norm but surely we don't want to arrive at the point where nobody with a "normal" income can afford to play a weekly round of golf.
\
What you don't understand is that you can't operate a golf course by charging $ 25 per round.
It's financially unfeasible.


Yet that is the direction the pricing of the game has been trending for a couple of decades. Possibly the current shakeout will reverse that trend, possibly not. But I think somewhere under $50/round is definitely in the discussion of "the cost of golf".

Only if someone else is picking up the operating costs.
The current shakeout is not impacting fixed costs.
Didn't Matt Day describe how his costs have escalated in the last 5 years ?
How are you going to reverse the increase in those costs ?


I sometimes have to be reminded of the extent to which this forum focuses on the upper tiers of golf course, clubs and golfers. Then again discussing architecture of USA courses that can afford to operate on $25 green fees probably doesn't offer a lot of scope for waxing eloquent on hairy bunkers and single vs. double bagging caddies...

No U.S. course can afford to operate on $ 25 green fees, unless there's a significant subsidy. (read municipal courses)


Mike_Young

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Re: Can we lower the cost of playing golf?
« Reply #99 on: December 13, 2012, 02:13:12 PM »
Pat,
There are plenty of US courses that make money and operate at $25 rounds.  Now it needs to be open 12 months and they need to bring in around $800,000 with a small club house.  But I can show you some guys with a couple of hundred grand profit at $25 per round right now.  And they are good products.
Can't be done everywhere but it is done.

I hope you and yours have a Merry Christmas.
Mike
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"