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Anthony Gray

Golf Channel fans aren't that interested in architecture
« on: December 23, 2011, 12:22:50 PM »


  Is this true? I would not have thoought there would have been that  much interest in the history of black golf but that documentary was very well done. I'm sure that a documentary of The Good Doctor would be better recieved than Big Break 10. It would be a nice change of pace. The Traveling Golfer was a great series on a channel that I forgot.

  Anthony


Jim Adkisson

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Re: Golf Channel fans aren't that interested in architecture
« Reply #1 on: December 23, 2011, 12:40:02 PM »
Anthony, I agree with both your premise that a documentary on ODG architects (as well as current "ODG's-to-be") would be more interesting than re-runs of Big Break, as well as your thread title that most GC fans aren' that interested...

A way to get around this, would be to have a show that previews the architecture, strategy and history of the course to be used on one of the tours that week as well as a "feature" on either a well renowned course or ODG....

Ease the heathens into the fold...

Garland Bayley

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Re: Golf Channel fans aren't that interested in architecture
« Reply #2 on: December 23, 2011, 01:10:50 PM »
The Big Break series has to be the biggest time wasters of all time. Who gives a rat's about these people and their nerves, jealousies, whatever.

Golf architectural history has to be better. Does Ken Burns play golf?
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Steve Lang

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Re: Golf Channel fans aren't that interested in architecture
« Reply #3 on: December 23, 2011, 01:37:43 PM »
"..the biggest time wasters of all time."    GB you mean time fillers?

p.s. If Ken Burns does play golf.. he doesn't keep a GHIN handicap in homestate NH..  i'd assume he'd document the R&A and/or USGA rather than an ODG.. 

Inverness (Toledo, OH) cathedral clock inscription: "God measures men by what they are. Not what they in wealth possess.  That vibrant message chimes afar.
The voice of Inverness"

Stuart Goldstein

Re: Golf Channel fans aren't that interested in architecture
« Reply #4 on: December 23, 2011, 01:42:16 PM »
My guess is that while a show, or series, on GCA would be quite interesting, I doubt it would pay the freight-advertising. Big Break etc. has all those sponsors.    With GCA you don't want it to turn into a infomercial about a particular course or resort.

John Foley

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Re: Golf Channel fans aren't that interested in architecture
« Reply #5 on: December 23, 2011, 01:44:30 PM »
I have a very good friend (who gets it also!) who was a producer at the Golf Channell. Spoke about this many times and he said it would never generate any revenue and as such would not get shown. Thats why the Shell series is no longer.

It would be great if it happened, but it never will.
Integrity in the moment of choice

Mark Saltzman

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Re: Golf Channel fans aren't that interested in architecture
« Reply #6 on: December 23, 2011, 02:04:33 PM »
With GCA you don't want it to turn into a infomercial about a particular course or resort.

But why not? Places like Pasatiempo, The Old White and Cascades I presume would pay for advertising and we can learn a lot from them.

David Kelly

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Re: Golf Channel fans aren't that interested in architecture
« Reply #7 on: December 23, 2011, 02:14:03 PM »
As we heard directly from a representative of the Golf Channel this week on GCA, architecture on TGC is a lost cause.
"Whatever in creation exists without my knowledge exists without my consent." - Judge Holden, Blood Meridian.

Tim Leahy

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Re: Golf Channel fans aren't that interested in architecture
« Reply #8 on: December 23, 2011, 03:04:20 PM »
If American Pickers can be a hit TV show why couldn't American Golfers? Send two guys around the country looking for deals on golf courses and visiting some of the classics along the way.
I love golf, the fightin irish, and beautiful women depending on the season and availability.

Craig Disher

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Re: Golf Channel fans aren't that interested in architecture
« Reply #9 on: December 23, 2011, 03:54:45 PM »
I think a gca presentation would draw interest but it would have to be done in a non-esoteric way that touches the experiences of the average Golf Channel viewer. For example, a show featuring Donald Ross and his design ideas on courses which many viewers might have played would be far more popular than one on George Thomas or CB Macdonald. How many viewers do you think have played the National or LACC? An intro to gca that walked the viewer through TOC or other popular Ireland/UK destinations might also generate interest. Most golfers don't think about architecture much beyond the "risk/reward" cliche but I suspect they would be receptive to learning a bit more if they could relate it to something they're familiar with.

Ronald Montesano

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Re: Golf Channel fans aren't that interested in architecture
« Reply #10 on: December 23, 2011, 03:58:46 PM »
The Tiger-Salad days are over...the young are looking elsewhere for cool things to do, on which to spend their money...Golf is back to being a niche...imagine being a sliver of a niche of a niche...that's what archie fans are to the Golf Channel.
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Jed Peters

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Re: Golf Channel fans aren't that interested in architecture
« Reply #11 on: December 24, 2011, 02:16:53 AM »
The big break is a great show.

Especially when there are to chicks on it.

Mac Plumart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Channel fans aren't that interested in architecture
« Reply #12 on: December 24, 2011, 09:02:37 AM »
Here is the bottom line...

If the gurus at The Golf Channel do not think a show on golf courses, architecture, architects would work, then their idea of how to do it is FUBAR'd.  It would work, much better than many of their shows...which are so bad that my viewership of the channel is WAY down...and I am an off the hook golf addict, like many of you on this site.

Any golf addict needs to be their target market.  Some are addicted to improving their game, they've got all the "how to" shows lined up already.  Some are addicted to the professional tours, The Golf Channel's got this coverage soup to nuts.  Some are addicted to the history of the game, this is lacking at The Golf Channel.  Some are addicted to the golf courses, this is why there are Top 100 lists and this is why people travel far and wide to play so many different courses...not just architecture junkies.  Like the history ascpect, this is lacking.  A show could tie in the last two concepts that are lacking at The Golf Channel. 

Furthermore, if people don't think golfers care about architecture...they are flat out wrong.  They may not realize they care about architecture and if you couch it as architecture, you may lose them.  But I am always pleasantly surprised every time I play with a low handicap player at how they pick up on architectural concepts and designs while playing.  Ridges in greens, attack angles, risk/reward decisions...perhaps this is inherent in becoming a good player. 

So, could you do a show on golf architecture but couch it as a show on "golf course management".  Absolutely.  Demonstrate how knowing subtle features, and some not so subtle features, affect your score and people should watch.  Pick a certain course to do the show at each and every time.  TPC Sawgrass (people seem to already be aware of at least one of this courses' holes' architectural features), #2, Bandon Dunes resort courses, perhaps the week of the majors do one at Olympic, Kiawah, Lytham and St. Anne's, and Augusta.  People will watch and sponsors will be there...if not the course themselves certainly the regular sponsors.  Get eyeballs on the show and sponsors will follow.

And if you've got eyeballs on this show, follow each "course management" show with a show on the architect itself.  Follow theTPC Sawgrass episode with a show on Pete and Alice Dye. Follow #2 with one on Ross.  Bandon with Keiser, Doak, Kidd, C&C.  Etc, etc, etc.

Again, it would work.  Sponsors will be there.  The Golf Channel will pull in two more segments of their target market that they are neglecting and if "sold" correctly still maintain the segments of the target market that they already have.

And if the status quo lovers and/or the negative nellies want to continually say that a Golf Channel guy already said this won't work, fine.  But it will, if done right.  I want to see it...I want to see The Golf Channel improve...and/or competition enter the market place to see better golf-centric television...so here are some of my ideas.
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Steve_ Shaffer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Channel fans aren't that interested in architecture
« Reply #13 on: December 24, 2011, 09:08:28 AM »
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Channel fans aren't that interested in architecture
« Reply #14 on: December 24, 2011, 09:13:19 AM »
The big break is a great show.

Especially when there are to chicks on it.

"to" = "hot?"

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Channel fans aren't that interested in architecture
« Reply #15 on: December 24, 2011, 09:41:18 AM »
Mac,
I agree that there are those of us that would enjoy a golf architecture show on TGC.  And golfers do care about architecture BUT it is way down their list of cares in golf. 
There are not enough people to endorse such a show.  And you could not get sponsors for such.  Right now the Big Break is their highest grossing show and that should tell you something. 
I don't know if any of you remember when Toro hired Arnold Palmer because the Pennzoil commercials showed him on a Toro  Parkmaster tractor when he was doing the oil commercial.  Everyone thought it would be a good idea.  Well JN went straight to Rainbird and quit using Toro products.  Toro had to ease out of that one.  If those types of sponsors were to promote a show on golf design and it showed a particular architect they would have others asking why are you supporting my competition.  They already do enough damage by sponsoring GCA associations which promote their own members over non members.  So there really aren't sponsors out there unless it were resorts which means you are only going to see architecture regarding resort destinations.  And in the average golfers mind architects are golf professionals just like Eddie Bauer builds ford Explorers with his name on them.  So I don't see it happening.
When I think of TV shows that are hits: Survivor, Bachelor, America's Got Talent, all are no different than Big Break.  I've never watched them but plenty of people do and I think TGC looks at it that way. 

"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Channel fans aren't that interested in architecture
« Reply #16 on: December 24, 2011, 10:29:38 AM »
Mac,
I agree that there are those of us that would enjoy a golf architecture show on TGC.  And golfers do care about architecture BUT it is way down their list of cares in golf. 
There are not enough people to endorse such a show.  And you could not get sponsors for such.  Right now the Big Break is their highest grossing show and that should tell you something. 
I don't know if any of you remember when Toro hired Arnold Palmer because the Pennzoil commercials showed him on a Toro  Parkmaster tractor when he was doing the oil commercial.  Everyone thought it would be a good idea.  Well JN went straight to Rainbird and quit using Toro products.  Toro had to ease out of that one.  If those types of sponsors were to promote a show on golf design and it showed a particular architect they would have others asking why are you supporting my competition.  They already do enough damage by sponsoring GCA associations which promote their own members over non members.  So there really aren't sponsors out there unless it were resorts which means you are only going to see architecture regarding resort destinations.  And in the average golfers mind architects are golf professionals just like Eddie Bauer builds ford Explorers with his name on them.  So I don't see it happening.
When I think of TV shows that are hits: Survivor, Bachelor, America's Got Talent, all are no different than Big Break.  I've never watched them but plenty of people do and I think TGC looks at it that way. 



Didn't Eddie Bauer used to design Explorers by laying out stakes on a single Sunday afternoon......

Honestly Mike,
I disagree.
I do think a golf architecture show would be worth trying-if they promoted it as much as they do the Big Break.
Particularly if it was well done and threw in some great history.
The reason being there are so few shows about it.
Clearly people are starved for golf content.
They watch the Big Break,Michael Breed, and even infomercials.
Quality would sell-if fairly promoted and intelligently presented.
especially in the winter ::) ::)
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Mac Plumart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Channel fans aren't that interested in architecture
« Reply #17 on: December 24, 2011, 10:39:11 AM »
Mac,
I agree that there are those of us that would enjoy a golf architecture show on TGC.  And golfers do care about architecture BUT it is way down their list of cares in golf.  
There are not enough people to endorse such a show.  And you could not get sponsors for such.  Right now the Big Break is their highest grossing show and that should tell you something.  
I don't know if any of you remember when Toro hired Arnold Palmer because the Pennzoil commercials showed him on a Toro  Parkmaster tractor when he was doing the oil commercial.  Everyone thought it would be a good idea.  Well JN went straight to Rainbird and quit using Toro products.  Toro had to ease out of that one.  If those types of sponsors were to promote a show on golf design and it showed a particular architect they would have others asking why are you supporting my competition.  They already do enough damage by sponsoring GCA associations which promote their own members over non members.  So there really aren't sponsors out there unless it were resorts which means you are only going to see architecture regarding resort destinations.  And in the average golfers mind architects are golf professionals just like Eddie Bauer builds ford Explorers with his name on them.  So I don't see it happening.
When I think of TV shows that are hits: Survivor, Bachelor, America's Got Talent, all are no different than Big Break.  I've never watched them but plenty of people do and I think TGC looks at it that way.  



Didn't Eddie Bauer used to design Explorers by laying out stakes on a single Sunday afternoon......

Honestly Mike,
I disagree.
I do think a golf architecture show would be worth trying-if they promoted it as much as they do the Big Break.
Particularly if it was well done and threw in some great history.
The reason being there are so few shows about it.
Clearly people are starved for golf content.
They watch the Big Break,Michael Breed, and even infomercials.
Quality would sell-if fairly promoted and intelligently presented.
especially in the winter ::) ::)

First off, Jeff...very funny first line!!

Secondly, Mike look at your last few sentences.  All of those shows were non-existent a few years back. This reality tv stuff was a status quo killer.  Now it is main stream.  What is the next big idea?  Golf course architecture shows, of course!  :)

Also, and seriously, look at what you are doing in the golf business world.  Unique stuff for unique times. 
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Steve_ Shaffer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Channel fans aren't that interested in architecture
« Reply #18 on: December 24, 2011, 11:06:11 AM »
I think the best way to accomplish more public awareness about golf course architecture on TGC is to do a series similar to Shell's WWOG on various courses  of the different eras of golf course development featuring segments on the architect and course history. This combination could be a good way to attract viewers. I'm reminded of some shows on PBS where comedians discuss comedy....BORING. People want to see golf being played.

"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Joel_Stewart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Channel fans aren't that interested in architecture
« Reply #19 on: December 24, 2011, 01:57:07 PM »
I think it could be done, it's just how it's presented.

If you had David Feherety or someone with some personality and made it fun, it could work.

Take for example, Diners, Drive Ins and Dives.  99% of the people that are on that show are boring but the host is funny and it's presented well.   I had an idea a few years ago and tried to pitch the Golf Channel but ended up talking to the wrong people.  Now they are all gone since being bought by Comcast so I may try again.

Ken Moum

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Re: Golf Channel fans aren't that interested in architecture
« Reply #20 on: December 24, 2011, 02:39:59 PM »
It's a self fulfilling prophecy to assume that all GC watchers are brainless morons...

H.L. Mencken - "No one ever went broke underestimating the taste of the American public."

Ken
Over time, the guy in the ideal position derives an advantage, and delivering him further  advantage is not worth making the rest of the players suffer at the expense of fun, variety, and ultimately cost -- Jeff Warne, 12-08-2010

Ben Sims

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Golf Channel fans aren't that interested in architecture
« Reply #21 on: December 24, 2011, 03:11:32 PM »
I love golf courses.  I love beard-pulling and looking at slopes and contour and bunker positioning.  I love looking at a golf hole and trying to figure out where the architect is trying to mess with me.  I'm a geek.  And in hard truth is that I make up about 0.02% of the golfing population.

This isn't to say that architecture doesn't matter.  Honestly, good architecture may matter as much as any other facet of golf.  It is the soul of each and every golf course and the catalyst behind every challenge that golf provides.  But great golf architecture is as transparent to the general golfing public as what makes a great roadway or a great building.  They appreciate the good stuff, but have no interest in the how's, why's, and who's. 

I am not cynical about architecture's impact, just the average American golfer's interest in it. 

Mike_Young

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Re: Golf Channel fans aren't that interested in architecture
« Reply #22 on: December 24, 2011, 03:49:42 PM »
Guys,
I understand what everyone is saying.  And while some may think the content is drivel, the GC is booming in sales and viewers.  And will continue.  Think about this: In the high time maybe 200 architects (60 firms), 33,000 members of PGA, 25,000 members of GCSAA.  And that's just the business end.  I don't think man yon here understand that as close as most ever come to liking GCA is if they are on a committee or a developer who is in the room when JN or GN ot TW or GP comes in to explain his design to them while the drool all over themselves.  I'm not saying GCA is not integral part of golf but golfers don't care and the viewership would not justify such a show.  It has been pitched to several channels for years and none can make it work. 
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

JC Urbina

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Re: Golf Channel fans aren't that interested in architecture
« Reply #23 on: December 24, 2011, 04:06:58 PM »
Mike,

Never say never.  It has to be done with passion and not just a 3 second sound bite.  It can be done, you know as well as I do when you talk to people about what you do their is a genuine interest in the process of how a golf course is created.  It can't be done with smoke and mirrors someone just needs to put a little thought in the process.

Terry Lavin

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Re: Golf Channel fans aren't that interested in architecture
« Reply #24 on: December 24, 2011, 04:33:46 PM »
Heck, I'm pumped when Dan Hicks (a thoughtful observer) offers a few historican factoids about a course laid out by Tilly or Ross or Mackenzie. I'm not naive enough to hope for actual architectural programming. Our luck, the GC would have a Classic Courses Special and Rich Lerner would host!
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken