[Bryan Izatt]

Thinking about ravines that are at least, say, 20 feet deep and 50 to 100 yards across, what is the best way to route a course to accommodate them?  I'm thinking only from a man's perspective. 

Is it preferred to cover them on a tee shot with a driver in hand? 

Or better on a second (or third) shot? 

Or better on a par 3? 

Is the preference different between architect vs player perspective? 

Or, between the better player vs the average player vs the high handicapper?

I have a preference which I will get to later.

[Mike_Young]

diagonally....

[Bryan Izatt]

I hope you didn't mean "Having a slanted or oblique direction".  Not sure I'd want to play your courses if you did.

[Mike_Young]

I hope you didn't mean "Having a slanted or oblique direction".  Not sure I'd want to play your courses if you did.

Yep ..That's what I meant....more good holes have diagonal ravines than parallel or perpendicular.

[Mac Plumart]

I hope you didn't mean "Having a slanted or oblique direction".  Not sure I'd want to play your courses if you did.

Brian...I don't get it...what is wrong diagonal attack angles across ravines?

[paul cowley]

Thinking about ravines that are at least, say, 20 feet deep and 50 to 100 yards across, what is the best way to route a course to accommodate them?  I'm thinking only from a man's perspective. 

Is it preferred to cover them on a tee shot with a driver in hand? 

Or better on a second (or third) shot? 

Or better on a par 3? 

Is the preference different between architect vs player perspective? 

Or, between the better player vs the average player vs the high handicapper?

I have a preference which I will get to later.

Brian....I would approach a design with all the suggestions you provided...plus Mike's suggestion of diagonals. That's how one creates variety and strategy when designing a course.

But not if the hazard carry for the long hitter is greater than 200 +/- yds..... or 60 +/- yds for the shorter players.

Not much fun after that for most.

[John Kirk]

Growing up in California, I think a ravine, or barranca, is a sensational natural hazard.  The San Franciscquito Creek is used brilliantly on Stanford University GC.  Staright over and alongside on many holes.

[Mike_Young]

I'm not saying it can't be straight over or along side of a golf hole but it stands to reason in my mind that a barranca or ravines would usually be at the bottom of a swale and would have sloping land towards it on both sides.  Therefore a ravine running left to right on a slightly downhill hole would most likely allow for a tee on the right side of the ravine with a centerline directed toward the right sloping fairway land on the left side of the ravine.  It would allow for the golfer to choose how much to cut off.  The other scenario with the ravine straight across would most likely have you driving into up sloping land or if it were along side then the drive would be moving across the fairway in one direction moreso than being accepted by the land.  JMO

[Carl Rogers]

The decision is entirely context driven.  How many shots are similar to this on the course?  Can the less skilled be given another option?

Wetlands and water hazards are in the same category or anything else where a recovery shot is not possible.

[PThomas]

see Shoreacres

[Mike_Young]

Pebble Beach, Pasatiempo

[Bryan Izatt]

Mike,

Thanks for the explanation.  Makes more sense to me now. 

So, do you have no preference for using it on a par 3 or off the tee?  Or, is it just where it falls in an otherwise good routing.  Do ravines or barrancas influence you at all early in the routing process?  Are they more or less or just the same as any other immoveable topographical features.

As a player, I'd prefer crossing them on a driver tee shot.  Less chance of a foozle.

Carl,

Yes, I'd agree that wetlands and water hazards provide the same intimidation factor.  I guess there are a lot more water-based forced carries than there are of ravines, so maybe I'm more used to them.

[Mike_Young]

Mike,

Thanks for the explanation.  Makes more sense to me now. 

So, do you have no preference for using it on a par 3 or off the tee?  Or, is it just where it falls in an otherwise good routing.  Do ravines or barrancas influence you at all early in the routing process?  Are they more or less or just the same as any other immoveable topographical features.

As a player, I'd prefer crossing them on a driver tee shot.  Less chance of a foozle.

Carl,

Yes, I'd agree that wetlands and water hazards provide the same intimidation factor.  I guess there are a lot more water-based forced carries than there are of ravines, so maybe I'm more used to them.

Bryan,
For me it would greatly influence the routing process...the odds are a lot of water is coming thru the area or it would have never been there in the first place....other factors I would consider would be: cost of bridge crossing...would you route it where a shorter bridge was needed on the narrower part( if going slightly downhill) or would you cross back over on a wider part to a green site?  Just a budget item...same goes for irrigation.  Does it need to cross the ravine or can it be placed on both sides. 
As for where: I can do drive or par three or if it has some "S" to it then cross it twice on a par five....JMO

[Bill_McBride]

Pebble Beach, Pasatiempo

I think Pasatiempo is the poster child, at least the back nine.  

#10 -  drive across on the tee shot, a relatively short carry to the right center.    The barranca continues down the left near the green, only hooked shots are a problem.  

#11 - the barranca is down the left off the tee and must be carried on a diagonal on the second shot, which is sharply uphill.  Great par 4.  

#12 - the same barranca is on your left going downhill on this shorter par 4.   Then you carry it on a slight diagonal with your approach.  I have played this shot when the barranca was choked with trees and vegetation, and I have played it - more recently - when the barranca has been cleaned out and the bottom is sandy.  

#13 - the barranca disappears on 13 and 14 and becomes a grassy swale on the left side of 14 that is really fun to mess with off that tee.  

# 15 -  the barranca is a hazard you play directly across on this short par 3.   This hole looks so easy and plays harder.  

# 16 - the barranca is off to the left.   Any hooked tee shot is liable to be in trouble.  

# 17 - I haven't played the new green, but think the barranca affects shots missed to the right or over the green.  

# 18 - your tee shot on this solid par 3 is directly over the barranca.  

So in summary, Mackenzie laid out the back nine so the barranca is in play on every hole.  Only once is it a diagonal hazard.   Great stuff.  

[Anthony Gray]

I'm not saying it can't be straight over or along side of a golf hole but it stands to reason in my mind that a barranca or ravines would usually be at the bottom of a swale and would have sloping land towards it on both sides.  Therefore a ravine running left to right on a slightly downhill hole would most likely allow for a tee on the right side of the ravine with a centerline directed toward the right sloping fairway land on the left side of the ravine.  It would allow for the golfer to choose how much to cut off.  The other scenario with the ravine straight across would most likely have you driving into up sloping land or if it were along side then the drive would be moving across the fairway in one direction moreso than being accepted by the land.  JMO

  How would you handle a burn Mike?

[Alex Miller]

Pebble Beach, Pasatiempo

I think Pasatiempo is the poster child, at least the back nine.  

#10 -  drive across on the tee shot, a relatively short carry to the right center.    The barranca continues down the left near the green, only hooked shots are a problem.  

#11 - the barranca is down the left off the tee and must be carried on a diagonal on the second shot, which is sharply uphill.  Great par 4.  

#12 - the same barranca is on your left going downhill on this shorter par 4.   Then you carry it on a slight diagonal with your approach.  I have played this shot when the barranca was choked with trees and vegetation, and I have played it - more recently - when the barranca has been cleaned out and the bottom is sandy.  

#13 - the barranca disappears on 13 and 14 and becomes a grassy swale on the left side of 14 that is really fun to mess with off that tee.  

# 15 -  the barranca is a hazard you play directly across on this short par 3.   This hole looks so easy and plays harder.  

# 16 - the barranca is off to the left.   Any hooked tee shot is liable to be in trouble.  

# 17 - I haven't played the new green, but think the barranca affects shots missed to the right or over the green.  

# 18 - your tee shot on this solid par 3 is directly over the barranca.  

So in summary, Mackenzie laid out the back nine so the barranca is in play on every hole.  Only once is it a diagonal hazard.   Great stuff.  

Agree completely with all this. As for 17, that green is so long I'd wager that few people take enough club to bring the barranca into play, but it is that intimidation factor that contributed to me leaving my approach 60 feet short and 3 putting.

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

I think Mike has nailed this good. We call these ravines bayous or coulees in south La. Coulees being the smaller of the two. Speaking of two's, 2 at Pebble Beach was a big deal when I first played out there.

[Ken Moum]

Mike,

Thanks for the explanation.  Makes more sense to me now. 

So, do you have no preference for using it on a par 3 or off the tee?  Or, is it just where it falls in an otherwise good routing.  Do ravines or barrancas influence you at all early in the routing process?  Are they more or less or just the same as any other immoveable topographical features.

As a player, I'd prefer crossing them on a driver tee shot.  Less chance of a foozle.

Carl,

I agree re. the driver carry, but even that can be problem for players of varying length.  My wife and I have virtually the same handicap, ~11-12, but I am about 50 yard longer off the tee than her.  So having a carry off the tee sometimes makes for a situation where one of us has a carry that's pretty much impossible.

Mike's diagonal ravine can work like a cape hole, giving different tees a carry suitable for the majority of folks.

At least it's better than a 90* ravine in the fairway on a long par four.  One of Jeff Brauer's courses here has that.  No. 4 @ Colbert Hills forces a layup for virtually everyone who plays it. 

If I play appropriate tees, I have to hit a seven iron off the tee, and I am left with a 225-yard second shot.  Since I rarely exceed 225 with my driver, that's pretty much out of reach.  Nobody likes that combination of shots.

K

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