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Sam Morrow

What Courses Disappointed You in 2011?
« on: December 21, 2011, 09:59:49 PM »
There is a thread about courses that surprised you, well what courses disappointed you in 2011? They don't need to be courses revered on here, any course that you expected more from.

I know I thought Royal Oaks in Houston was a joke, classic super high-end country club. Huge clubhouse, mcmansions, faux stone, and fountains. I've seen it make some top 20 in Texas lists, it's not top 20 in Greater Houston.

Mac Plumart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What Courses Disappointed You in 2011?
« Reply #1 on: December 21, 2011, 10:07:23 PM »
Pinehurst #1...I actually walked off the course.  Bland greens, boring shots, slow pace.  I had seen photos in the Tufts archives of the course and I had decent expectations, but oh no...it was bad.

Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Sam Morrow

Re: What Courses Disappointed You in 2011?
« Reply #2 on: December 21, 2011, 10:09:09 PM »
Pinehurst #1...I actually walked off the course.  Bland greens, boring shots, slow pace.  I had seen photos in the Tufts archives of the course and I had decent expectations, but oh no...it was bad.




I only thought about walking off 1 course this year, it wasn't that good (didn't expect a lot)  and The Texans and Cowboys were both playing.

Jim Colton

Re: What Courses Disappointed You in 2011?
« Reply #3 on: December 21, 2011, 10:13:41 PM »
Sanctuary wasn't my cup of tea.

Pound Ridge was my first true Doak 0, but I can't call it a disappointment. It lived up to expectations.

Jackson C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What Courses Disappointed You in 2011?
« Reply #4 on: December 21, 2011, 10:21:58 PM »
Sanctuary wasn't my cup of tea.

Pound Ridge was my first true Doak 0, but I can't call it a disappointment. It lived up to expectations.

Doak 0 is tongue and cheek?
If not, what is a Doak 0, and why is Pound Ridge a Doak 0?
Serious question, as I've played the course a couple of times.
"The secrets that golf reveals to the game's best are secrets those players must discover for themselves."
Christy O'Connor, Sr. (1998)

Phil McDade

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What Courses Disappointed You in 2011?
« Reply #5 on: December 21, 2011, 11:29:35 PM »
Sanctuary wasn't my cup of tea.

Pound Ridge was my first true Doak 0, but I can't call it a disappointment. It lived up to expectations.

Doak 0 is tongue and cheek?
If not, what is a Doak 0, and why is Pound Ridge a Doak 0?
Serious question, as I've played the course a couple of times.

The Doak Scale:

http://www.linksmagazine.com/best_of_golf/features/the-doak-scale/

Mark Saltzman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What Courses Disappointed You in 2011?
« Reply #6 on: December 21, 2011, 11:40:19 PM »
3 Creek Ranch
Circling Raven
Coeur D'Alene Resort
Sanctuary
Awarii Dunes

Jim Colton

Re: What Courses Disappointed You in 2011?
« Reply #7 on: December 21, 2011, 11:49:00 PM »
Sanctuary wasn't my cup of tea.

Pound Ridge was my first true Doak 0, but I can't call it a disappointment. It lived up to expectations.

Doak 0 is tongue and cheek?
If not, what is a Doak 0, and why is Pound Ridge a Doak 0?
Serious question, as I've played the course a couple of times.

Not tongue and cheek, I think it meets most if not all of the criteria. If its not a Doak 0, then it's the closest that I've ever played to a Doak 0.

"0. A course so contrived and unnatural that it may poison your mind, one I cannot recommend under any circumstances. Reserved for courses that wasted ridiculous sums of money in their construction, and probably shouldn’t have been built in the first place."


Sam Morrow

Re: What Courses Disappointed You in 2011?
« Reply #8 on: December 22, 2011, 01:09:30 AM »
3 Creek Ranch
Circling Raven
Coeur D'Alene Resort
Sanctuary
Awarii Dunes



Mark,

 I have Awarii on my 2012 radar, what didn't you like?

Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What Courses Disappointed You in 2011?
« Reply #9 on: December 22, 2011, 06:06:48 AM »
Audubon golf course in Amherst, NY. My youthful pasture made the decision to eliminate the first hole and replace it with a driving range. Fine, as the course sits on the western boundary of the course. The parallel 9th fairway became the new first, and some land next to the 9th arbitrarily became the new 9th. My sources say that no outside firm was called in to consult and that what came out was a short (260) par 4 with no character. I'll have to see it to believe it, but the dearth of publicity by the town made me suspect another cost-cutting measure by a municipal board.

Westwood country club, also in Amherst, is promoted at times as a Harries, at others as an Alison, design. The club was sold and the new ownership instituted a name change, The Golf Club at The Westwood. The Westwood is not a building nor a development, so the use of the second definite article, or even the preposition, mystify me. I never understand these types of decisions, nor the grammar assassins that promote them. My real issue, however, is with the price structure. Given an opportunity to make it as a semi-private course, with two days open and five closed, the club backed down and went to another pricing model, still completely private. I'm not certain how they'll compete but I hope they do. I don't want to see the area lose a golf course.

Bridgewater CC, in Fort Erie, Ontario. I know that some of the holes are Stanley Thompson ones, but there is no way that all of them can be. The course has a sizable allotment of featureless flatland, none of which was enhanced in the way that the Toronto Terror would have. the holes in the center portion of the property, where the land is broken and bisected by water courses, are memorable and creative. The discrepancy between good holes and forgettable ones disrupts the flow of the round. Too often I found myself holding up the group, sitting on a hole and asking "what could have been done here instead?"

« Last Edit: December 22, 2011, 07:30:06 AM by Ronald Montesano »
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Cory Lewis

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What Courses Disappointed You in 2011?
« Reply #10 on: December 22, 2011, 06:38:38 AM »
East Lake:  Yeah it's nice, but I just was not wowed by anything, you can see the Rees Jones influence too much on certain holes.

Governors Club:  The Mountain nine at Governors Club might be one of the worst nine holes I have ever seen.  When you design an entire nine holes for one tee box that's not a good thing!
Instagram: @2000golfcourses
http://2000golfcourses.blogspot.com

Scott Warren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What Courses Disappointed You in 2011?
« Reply #11 on: December 22, 2011, 07:01:59 AM »
Royal Sydney disappoints me every time I play it. I always think I was being too precious the previous times to feel like walking off after 10 holes, but no, that's really the best option. Actually walking from 9 green to 16 tee would be the ideal play, then play 16, walk to the driving zone of 18, drop a ball and play to the green.

It's a wonderful club, but a poorly-routed, over-bunkered and sadly repetitive course.

Barnbougle (Lost Farm) disappointed me a bit. I still am really looking forward to going back, but to some degree I walked off after 40 holes feeling like something was missing. I am inclined to think it's a grower that will further endear itself to me in time. I am being harsh calling it a disappointment, but to some extent, given what I was expecting/anticipating (and had played that same week -- Barny Dunes, RM West, Kingston Heath, St AB), it was.
« Last Edit: December 22, 2011, 07:15:31 AM by Scott Warren »

Brad Tufts

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What Courses Disappointed You in 2011?
« Reply #12 on: December 22, 2011, 09:33:26 AM »
Hey Brian,

What else didn't you like about TCC?

I don't view it as even the best in Mass., but it has unique character and loads of history.  It is true that the member layout holes that they change around for the open layout (9, 10, 12) are not the greatest, but they are cool in a quirky "days-gone-by" way.  I do view holes 1-5, 7-8, 11-18 as very good holes.  I will give you 6, 9, and 10 as pedestrian holes, but 9 is the only one I would call bad.  They even have improved 10 by adding a new tee back at 340 or so.

For the record, I also dislike 2 of 3 of the champ course holes.  The combination of the two Primrose holes is very awkward, and the next hole is absurd as a par 4.

Regardless of some slight issues, TCC still has the feel of greatness, however that can be quantified.  It is the only course with that feel in New England.

I would be curious to hear more of your opinion!

-Brad

So I jump ship in Hong Kong....

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What Courses Disappointed You in 2011?
« Reply #13 on: December 22, 2011, 10:59:59 AM »
I thought I was disappointed in Awarri until I read the reviews of the Golfweek crowd.  Based on their opinions I was pleasantly surprised.  Expectations are all about timing.

PCCraig

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What Courses Disappointed You in 2011?
« Reply #14 on: December 22, 2011, 11:09:34 AM »
Brian,

I would also be interested to hear more of your thoughts on TCC. I caddied out there while in college and really love the course, though I admit I think it takes a few rounds to really "get" a few of the holes. Photos and comments would be great, even if in a different thread.

Thanks.
H.P.S.

Brad Tufts

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What Courses Disappointed You in 2011?
« Reply #15 on: December 22, 2011, 11:26:21 AM »
At TCC I'm going to say #1 is a good start.  Long yes, but it introduces the theme at TCC:  room off the tee, subtle angles where one can gain yardage (hit it down the left and you will be 25 yards closer to the green), and a smallish (this one not too small yet...wait till #2!) green surrounded by rough and bunkering.

#15 through #18 are all very good holes.  #15 is open off the tee to a greensite that is surrounded by trouble even while having one of the larger greens on the back nine.  Also, technology has made the hole more interesting, as the road (and rough surrounding it) is more in play today than ever.  #16 is a great semi-blind par three where you never quite know what is going on up at the green from the tee.  #17 is one of, if not the, best hole on the course (I like 3, 4, 7, and 11 too).  A hole of 370 that is VERY difficult is rare, and the green might be the toughest part...stay below the hole!  #18's tee shot is blah, but the approach and greensite rivals nearly anything in the US for history, challenge, and beauty.  I've only played the course 5-6 times or so, but something fun usually happens on 18 green.
So I jump ship in Hong Kong....

PCCraig

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What Courses Disappointed You in 2011?
« Reply #16 on: December 22, 2011, 11:55:02 AM »
At TCC I'm going to say #1 is a good start.  Long yes, but it introduces the theme at TCC:  room off the tee, subtle angles where one can gain yardage (hit it down the left and you will be 25 yards closer to the green), and a smallish (this one not too small yet...wait till #2!) green surrounded by rough and bunkering.

#15 through #18 are all very good holes.  #15 is open off the tee to a greensite that is surrounded by trouble even while having one of the larger greens on the back nine.  Also, technology has made the hole more interesting, as the road (and rough surrounding it) is more in play today than ever.  #16 is a great semi-blind par three where you never quite know what is going on up at the green from the tee.  #17 is one of, if not the, best hole on the course (I like 3, 4, 7, and 11 too).  A hole of 370 that is VERY difficult is rare, and the green might be the toughest part...stay below the hole!  #18's tee shot is blah, but the approach and greensite rivals nearly anything in the US for history, challenge, and beauty.  I've only played the course 5-6 times or so, but something fun usually happens on 18 green.

Well said Brad.

It's also important to hug the left bunker on the 1st tee as the approach angle to the green is much easier without having to flirt with the short right greenside bunker and the slope that runs away from it on the green.

I actually love the 2nd hole, even as a par-4, because the hole looks so easy but it can play really tough for some. The green sits up high and it always much firmer than others on the course, and I've seen 100 balls bounce on and over the green. If someone decides to hit driver at the green and misses short or left it makes for a really hard up and down.

#3 is a classic, and is the first taste of the natural and wild site. It's also where many go "Uh, where am I supposed to aim?"

#4 is an awesome short par-4 with 3 really good options. Hit iron short off the tee, leave yourself a blind 2nd shot. Hit ~3 wood to flat plateau of fairway to leave yourself a full swing wedge, or hit a driver down by the green and either leave a short sidehill pitch to the tiny green, or flirt with the deep greenside bunkers.

#5 doesn't look like much, but the green can play very hard as it slopes HARD right to left and being above the hole is nearly impossible when the greens are quick.

#6 is a fun short par-4, which often leaves the player with a blind 2nd shot wedge. The hole is a lot better since they took the trees out from behind the green, creating a skyline green.

#7 is the oldest on the property, and maybe the wildest green with its internal contours. A front pin is really hard to hold and usually leaves a player a wild putt coming back.

I'll keep going if anyone cares :)
H.P.S.

Scott Szabo

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What Courses Disappointed You in 2011?
« Reply #17 on: December 22, 2011, 12:37:33 PM »
The Country Club of Colorado (Cheyenne Mountain Resort) in Colorado Springs is a Pete Dye course with his trademark par-3 17th hole(all of Dye's courses that I've played had them).  Little or no strategy at all throughout the course.  I was expecting more from Dye.  Beautiful setting, but the course has to be one of his worst efforts. 
"So your man hit it into a fairway bunker, hit the wrong side of the green, and couldn't hit a hybrid off a sidehill lie to take advantage of his length? We apologize for testing him so thoroughly." - Tom Doak, 6/29/10

Mark Chaplin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What Courses Disappointed You in 2011?
« Reply #18 on: December 22, 2011, 06:08:46 PM »
Pine Valley - greens too soft
Galloway National - too many mosquitos
Deal, NJ - two temporary greens
Essex County - squelchy underfoot and thick lush rough
NGLA - no sails on windmill

All of these were caused by a couple of feisty ladies called Irene and Katia, just shows how nature can affect even the best courses.
Cave Nil Vino

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What Courses Disappointed You in 2011?
« Reply #19 on: December 22, 2011, 06:11:58 PM »
I didn't really have a disappointment this year in terms of architecture.  My big disappointment was with the drainage at the Castle Course.  I can't believe with the money spent on that course that drainage wasn't a higher priority - especially as its in St Andrews.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Tim Martin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What Courses Disappointed You in 2011?
« Reply #20 on: December 22, 2011, 06:20:11 PM »
Cape May National- Absolutely crazy routing and virtually unwalkable. Enough black flies to take down a jungle full of elephants.

Tim Martin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What Courses Disappointed You in 2011?
« Reply #21 on: December 22, 2011, 06:48:05 PM »
Hey Brian,

What else didn't you like about TCC?

I don't view it as even the best in Mass., but it has unique character and loads of history.  It is true that the member layout holes that they change around for the open layout (9, 10, 12) are not the greatest, but they are cool in a quirky "days-gone-by" way.  I do view holes 1-5, 7-8, 11-18 as very good holes.  I will give you 6, 9, and 10 as pedestrian holes, but 9 is the only one I would call bad.  They even have improved 10 by adding a new tee back at 340 or so.

For the record, I also dislike 2 of 3 of the champ course holes.  The combination of the two Primrose holes is very awkward, and the next hole is absurd as a par 4.

Regardless of some slight issues, TCC still has the feel of greatness, however that can be quantified.  It is the only course with that feel in New England.

I would be curious to hear more of your opinion!

-Brad



Brad- I`m just trying to get a handle on what qualifies for greatness. If that moniker is strictly set aside for courses that have hosted majors then I wonder where Brae Burn and Newport stack up.

Tommy Williamsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What Courses Disappointed You in 2011?
« Reply #22 on: December 22, 2011, 07:11:23 PM »
I generally do not bash publically. The resort course at Hualalai was just
plainly dreadful. Nicklaus should return his fee. He just put down some
grass seed between lava outcroppings and left. I couldn't wait to get off
The course.
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

David Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What Courses Disappointed You in 2011?
« Reply #23 on: December 22, 2011, 07:20:40 PM »
Barnbougle (Lost Farm) disappointed me a bit. I still am really looking forward to going back, but to some degree I walked off after 40 holes feeling like something was missing. I am inclined to think it's a grower that will further endear itself to me in time.

I think its a wonderful course and wasn't really disappointed but I do think it is a step down from Barnbougle Dunes.  I'm not a big fan of the two extra holes - 13B & especially 18B.  The short alternate 13th hole is fine in and of itself (although a bit hard to hold the green) but it kind of grinds the round to a halt as you have to walk all the way back to the tee and then walk back again to move on to #14.  18B follows a not great 18th and is a pretty ho-hum hole to me.  It can be avoided and isn't really part of the course but maybe it ends the round on a little bit of a prosaic note.
"Whatever in creation exists without my knowledge exists without my consent." - Judge Holden, Blood Meridian.

Brad Tufts

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What Courses Disappointed You in 2011?
« Reply #24 on: December 22, 2011, 08:19:59 PM »
Hey Brian,

What else didn't you like about TCC?

I don't view it as even the best in Mass., but it has unique character and loads of history.  It is true that the member layout holes that they change around for the open layout (9, 10, 12) are not the greatest, but they are cool in a quirky "days-gone-by" way.  I do view holes 1-5, 7-8, 11-18 as very good holes.  I will give you 6, 9, and 10 as pedestrian holes, but 9 is the only one I would call bad.  They even have improved 10 by adding a new tee back at 340 or so.

For the record, I also dislike 2 of 3 of the champ course holes.  The combination of the two Primrose holes is very awkward, and the next hole is absurd as a par 4.

Regardless of some slight issues, TCC still has the feel of greatness, however that can be quantified.  It is the only course with that feel in New England.

I would be curious to hear more of your opinion!

-Brad



Brad- I`m just trying to get a handle on what qualifies for greatness. If that moniker is strictly set aside for courses that have hosted majors then I wonder where Brae Burn and Newport stack up.

Hi Tim...."Greatness" to me is almost an intangible thing.  At TCC you see things that do not exist elsewhere in New England, on land that happens to have hosted some of the great moments in American golf history.  The tournament history helps the overall sense, but it isn't that specific.  Newport and Brae Burn are both good courses with much of the same feel as TCC, but the golf course is a touch better at TCC.
So I jump ship in Hong Kong....

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