[Joel Zuckerman]

Lots of rhetorical responses here, and very few actual examples.

Here's one:  Brunswick CC on the Georgia coast.  Very interesting and challenging greens, which make the GC, because tee to green, it is extremely straightforward.

[Chris Buie]

Good answer Jeff. I appreciate it.

Few courses really, really look at their most frequent customers and design around them.

That is an amazing statement and I'm sure you are right. I also find that absolutely absurd.

pro signature championship course in a retirement community

That's essentially where this idea first started. I specifically remember standing on the 5th tee of (Pinehurst) National and watching these retirees do a little keystone cops routine in and around the fairway. This is before I gave design much consideration. But I do remember clearly thinking this is NOT the course that the members of the club need.

I think it is not the right path to design courses not made for the main people that play them.

I'm trying to tilt the axis of the zeitgeist - but probably actually tilting at windmills.
Thanks for indulging me guys. You are very kind.

[Ronald Montesano]

devil's advocate: how do you know your customer until the course is built?

[Tim Gavrich]

As muh as I have enjoyed each one I've played, I have never felt challenged by Mike Strantz' courses the way I have been by those of some other architects.  I'll note that I've played neither of his courses in Williamsburg, VA.  I find Tobacco Road to be visually fascinating, but qua an 18-hole golf examination, it's not that bad at all, IMO.  Also, I am a lower-handicap player (when I'm lucky), and I concede that not every golfer has the same impression of Tobacco Road (or True Blue, where I really have to stink it up to miss more than three greens and one or two fairways).

I also found TOC to be much, much less challenging than I had anticipated.  IT was a relatively calm day, though, I'll grant.

[Lou_Duran]

On one of the courses above, there are no real senior tees so they play the reds - which pisses them off to play from the ladies tees, but also leaves the course just a little too short for them at 5000 yards.  The solution is a new set of red tees at 4000+/- and a slight repositioning of the existing reds to convert them to slightly longer tees for the seniors, at about 5250 yards.  (its a par 70 course)

Yours is a "solution" not without problems.  I was a bartender for a catering service while in college which had bought the clubhouse from a bankrupt Jewish country club to hold a large variety of events.  We often had 100 to 400+ people to serve, many hitting the bar all at once, so we were trained to pour fast and furious.  One of the "rules" was to go light on alcohol and heavy on the mixes and fruit for the women, which at times resulted in very uncomfortable exchanges with those who thought we were treating them unfairly because of their gender.

The "easiest" decent course I've played is the Gray at Ohio State.  Talking about age and gender sensitivitie, one of my other college jobs was as a starter for the Scarlet and Gray courses and getting some of the senior and women members during busy times to play the much friendlier/shorter Gray was like pulling teeth.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Jud,

I agree with the monotony.  While I have heard many golfers complain of only hitting short irons in, its only a complaint if there are three or four 9 irons in a row, but few complaints if they make 4 birdies in a row!

Maybe that old Stanley Thompson shot variety chart has some merit.

Chris,

For a new course, or one considering remodeling, it should be easy to find out about your members/players.  Do a demographic study of the 10-20 mile radius around your course.  Things change a little for a resort course, of course, but I guess you would benchmark off the most popular resort in your region.  (Very few resorts draw nationally, most are 90% + regional attractions)

If your demographic is senior citizens on fixed incomes, you design to get the cheapest possible round, not a great course.

If you are upwardly mobile, young, etc. you might design a prettier, upscale experience, but be mindful of speed of play so they can get home to their familes, etc.

Think about the makeup of the daily play at your course.  Based on an average day of 150 rounds, your play on any given day will PROBABLY be a mix of:
•   Core customer, (80-90%/120 rounds)
•   Occasional customer:
                o   Golfer seeking a change of pace or variety (5%/8 rounds)
                o   Semi-Regular Customer from 20+ miles attracted by quality/value (5%/8 rounds)
•   New customer,
               o   New golfer (1%/1-2 golfers)
               o   Tournament or outing participant (0-90%, varies with bookings)
               o   Tourist/Visitor (5%/8 rounds, but it varies by location)
o   Competitor’s customer (1-10%)
                     Insulted or Ignored by competitor (3%/4 rounds)
                     Respondent to your marketing
•   Ads, articles, or branding,
•   Discount coupon.

Not many courses vary from that, do they?

[Jeff_Brauer]

Lou,

I agree nothing is perfect.  As someone said, you need to go with averages, but someone will always complain!

Cheers.

[Mark Johnson]

my list

  Pinehurst 3, 4 and 6
  Hillcrest Country Club in Boise
  The Brute in Lake Geneva
  Princeville Makai

[Mac Plumart]

For what it is worth, I think I tend to like easy golf courses.

I've heard people say that Shoreacres is too easy.  I agree it isn't a ball-busting "test of golf" like Seminole, but I liked Shoreacres quite a bit more than Seminole.  Per my level of game (current 7.9 USGA index), Shoreacres was great fun...and interesting enough test with little bits of quirky difficultly like the Road Hole there...nice use of angles...but not a soul destroying round of golf due to its difficulty.  Wouldn't most golfers prefer fun to an extremely difficult course?  If golfers have fun, they'll be back...right?  If golfers are frustrated, they'll quit...right? 

Others that people say are easy courses that I really, really, really like are:

Ballyneal;
Old Elm;
Crail Balcomie;
The Old Course;
NGLA (people say it is too short...not for me);
Bandon Dunes;
North Berwick (easy?  who cares!  it is FUN!!!)
Holston Hills;
Inwood


I'll stop now. 

[Howard Riefs]

The Ocean Course.

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,50398.0.html

[Shane Wright]

I have seen the Old Course mentioned several times on here.  And on both of my two trips to Scotland, my best scoring round was at the Old Course.  But the Old Course is by no means too easy.  In my opinion, it is almost as fun as it gets.  Both times I played it, the pin locations were not too difficult (except for the Road Hole which had the pin right behind the bunker).  But both times, I vividly remember saying to myself, "Dang I'm lucky they don't have the pin there, I'd be screwed!"  There are so many locations they could put the pins that would make it extremely difficult to access and force you to either have razor sharp precision to set up your approach shot, or force you to two putt all day from 60+ feet.  But they don't because the number of rounds they get and the importance on having everyone play "fast."  Obviously the weather and wind conditions play a big part.  Maybe you thought it was too easy when you played it, but you can't tell me you didn't walk away proud of shooting your handicap or better at the Old Course.  If they played the Open Championship with the generous pins most of you have seen, the scores would be 25+ under par.  It is why it is one of the greatest courses in the world.  They can set it up with very fair pins to make it difficult enough for an Open Championship and then set it up for the 10 handicapper to come in and shoot 78.

Call it too easy, I call it a masterpiece.

[Sean_A]

So I was having a drink tonight with a GCA friend and I brought up this question I had considered asking on here. He said I should post it. So, have at it if you care to. The question is specifically about the difficulty level. Which course have you played that was too easy? And, by the way, do you remember what you shot?

I looked at this thread a few times and the only conclusion I can draw is its a piss take - so I ain't bitin'. 

Ciao

[Sean Leary]

Sean all TOC needs is a brisk breeze and it's a different proposition, like any links.

Mark,

Without a doubt. It was set up short, little wind, and I had a lucky day driving the ball missing fairway bunkers that I couldn't see....

[Tim Leahy]

Santa Barbara Muni and DeBell Golf Course in Burbank come to mind. Lots of short par 4 and par 5's.
Also Tierra Rejada in Simi Valley has more bowl shaped greens that kick mis-hit shots to the center of the greens than any course I can think of.

[Bill_McBride]

Santa Barbara Muni and DeBell Golf Course in Burbank come to mind. Lots of short par 4 and par 5's.
Also Tierra Rejada in Simi Valley has more bowl shaped greens that kick mis-hit shots to the center of the greens than any course I can think of.

Santa Barbara Golf Club (the "Muni") does have a few easy holes - #1 and #2 come to mind - but #3, 4, 11, 12, and 17 are tough holes.

I know that course well from college days.  It was the scene of one of the two competitive 69's in my career!  Maybe it is easy!

[Alex Miller]

Santa Barbara Muni and DeBell Golf Course in Burbank come to mind. Lots of short par 4 and par 5's.
Also Tierra Rejada in Simi Valley has more bowl shaped greens that kick mis-hit shots to the center of the greens than any course I can think of.

Santa Barbar Muni is certaintly an easy course, but TOO easy? DeBell is also wicked if you don't know the course, but if you're smart you should never shoot net above par.

Tierra Rejada is just bad IMO, and I prefer to keep it out of mind. No analysis from me  .


Personally I don't think an interesting course can be too easy. If it requires you to think about the shots and execute them in order to be rewarded, then it's providing the challenge it should.

[Philippe Binette]

No golf course is too easy for me as a player.. if a hole is too easy, I find a way to mess it up...

[Matthew Rose]

What Philippe said.

Sometimes I play terrible on easy courses.... more pressure to score, maybe? If you get off to a bad start and bogey two or three early holes, it gets in your head.

I actually have a knack for birdieing the #1 handicap hole a lot of times, and then screwing up the easy hole that comes after it.

[Bart Bradley]

Chris:

When I saw this post, I immediately thought you were trying to make the point that golf is inherently difficult for the average player.  And that accordingly, no course can really be too easy.

But here is the rub.  What makes golf fun is executing a well thought out strategy.  And to create strategy, there must be consequences to poor execution or planning.  Without consequences, the game loses its interest....if all greens were just funnels into a hole, the strategy would be gone.

Anyway, I would agree that architecture must focus on interest and on strategy and not worry too much about difficulty and I have played a bunch of courses that are just old mowed corn fields that have no strategy and are therefore "too easy"-- but they are not courses that we discuss on this board because they really have no "architecture".

Best wishes for a Happy Holiday Season,

Bart

[John_Cullum]

Lots of rhetorical responses here, and very few actual examples.

Here's one:  Brunswick CC on the Georgia coast.  Very interesting and challenging greens, which make the GC, because tee to green, it is extremely straightforward.

Brunswick was used for a monday qualifier for the McGaldery tournamanet a couple of months ago. They didn't go very low on it

[Chris Buie]

Hi Bart, nice to hear from you!

I immediately thought you were trying to make the point that golf is inherently difficult for the average player.

It is inherently difficult for the average player.  And the point is we should take them quite a bit more into consideration when designing courses. Otherwise, we are unnecessarily limiting the pleasure they could be having.

What makes golf fun is executing a well thought out strategy.

Yeah, for someone that knows how to play the game well. Does that apply to those that are not so skilled? The only strategy I see out of them is trying to keep it out of the woods, water and traps. I don't think they are trying to hit the correct side of the fairway (in the rare instances there actually is one) or hit it below the hole, etc.

Golf is a lot of things. Should it be really challenging? Yes! Sometimes. But not always.
We have thousands of courses that are too hard for the average player. Is this what we need a lot more of? Why would we not build at least some courses for the skill level of the average player?

Well, let me try it another way. You guys know how to use computers. What if you had to be an advanced programmer to surf the internet? Would you prefer that? Do you think that is how it should be? They brought the skill level required to do it down to the average - and sub-average person. Consequently, they have a much more enjoyable time than they would if computers were only set up for advanced users. If they want to get into advanced stuff they can in good time - at the proper pace.

Well, this is a radical idea. I thought it might liven things up a bit and get some thinking going in different directions. We don't want to cover familiar territory all the time do we?

Have a great Christmas Bart - and everybody else!

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