[DMoriarty]

Just so I do not again get falsely accused of sandbagging,  Brown also wrote, "Our old records indicate that on a trip to Atlantic City, Crump saw a pasture land near the town of Clementon, New Jersey, which apparently was suitable for a golf course.  This raised his curiosity and later he and Howard Perrin, the first President of Pine Valley Golf Club, spent several days tramping over the grounds which now comprise the club."  

The above is the part that seems largely derivative of the newspaper clippings to me, and Shelly seems to confirm this.

He also said that the properly was owned by Sumner Ireland.   Had he been looking at actual business records, would he have gotten this detail wrong?  

[JESII]

David,

John Arthur Brown:
 
"The Philadelphia Inquirer on Sunday, January 4, 1912, is worth quoting in full. It gives and excellent description."


Philadelphia Inquirer - January 4th, 1914:

At first the search was in a desultory way from hearsay and railroad car windows.  Years sped by without definite results, until it became apparent that a closer canvas must be begun, so many an automobile trip was made half with that end in view.

About two years ago, after locations as far away as Northfield and Somers Point had been exhausted, the choice narrowed to Pine Valley, close to the Reading Railway, sixteen miles below Philadelphia, on the direct line to Atlantic City.  It is also close to the White Horse pike, an automobile route.

[Patrick_Mucci]

David,

John Arthur Brown:

Jim, it's important to state that JAB didn't make this statement, he merely quoted a newspaper article.
 
"The Philadelphia Inquirer on Sunday, January 4, 1912, is worth quoting in full. It gives and excellent description."


Philadelphia Inquirer - January 4th, 1914:

At first the search was in a desultory way from hearsay and railroad car windows.  Years sped by without definite results, until it became apparent that a closer canvas must be begun, so many an automobile trip was made half with that end in view.

But, Bryan told us that there were NO ROADS NEAR PINE VALLEY.
How could they travel by automobile if there were NO ROADS ?

About two years ago, after locations as far away as Northfield and Somers Point had been exhausted, the choice narrowed to Pine Valley, close to the Reading Railway, sixteen miles below Philadelphia, on the direct line to Atlantic City.  It is also close to the White Horse pike, an automobile route.

I believe that I cited the White Horse Pike as a major thoroughfare but Bryan said it wasn't completed to Berlin until 1922.
How could they have been driving on the White Horse Pike in 1914, 1912 or 1910 if it wasn't operational, as Bryan declared ?

[DMoriarty]

David,

John Arthur Brown:
 
"The Philadelphia Inquirer on Sunday, January 4, 1912, is worth quoting in full. It gives and excellent description."


Philadelphia Inquirer - January 4th, 1914:

At first the search was in a desultory way from hearsay and railroad car windows.  Years sped by without definite results, until it became apparent that a closer canvas must be begun, so many an automobile trip was made half with that end in view.

About two years ago, after locations as far away as Northfield and Somers Point had been exhausted, the choice narrowed to Pine Valley, close to the Reading Railway, sixteen miles below Philadelphia, on the direct line to Atlantic City.  It is also close to the White Horse pike, an automobile route.

Jim  I am not sure who is feeding you this information but you should really take a look at the Brown book for yourself.

[JESII]

Why would the AWT story make it into any club records if it was a myth?

Do you really think it unusual that a club would save old clippings about the club?   If they did save clippings, do you really think they would thoroughly vet these already published articles for detailed accuracy, and purge their files of any that did not pass muster?  Merion's club secretary held onto hundreds of old newspaper clippings about Merion.  Do you think that we can take everything in all those newspaper clippings as factually accurate just because Merion's secretary chose to save them?  

Are you serious? If it's false it doesn't make it into the file...period. Or are you talking about someone doing some digging 20 years after the fact?

[JESII]

David,

As I asked Tom, what am I missing?

[DMoriarty]

Well one thing you are missing is that the portion of the January 4, 1914 article you quoted is not in the the Brown book.  At least it is not in my version, which was printed in 1974.  

The quote starts with the next paragraph:  "The land there, comprising 184 rolling acres, is or was, the highest ground in New Jersey . . . ."
_______________________________________

I can't quite believe you think that PV would definitely never have saved a newspaper clipping unless all the information had been vetted as absolutely true.  Care to reconsider this?  Does this apply to other clubs as well?

[JESII]

My only quote from Brown is that he says the newspaper is worth quoting in full...that's why I put that after the words John Arthur Brown and a colon. The next section that says Philadelphia Inquirer... ending with a colon indicating what follows is from the paper. Should have been pretty clear although I wouldn't have expected Pat to pick it up...

[Patrick_Mucci]

Well one thing you are missing is that the portion of the January 4, 1914 article you quoted is not in the the Brown book.  At least it is not in my version, which was printed in 1974.  

The quote starts with the next paragraph:  "The land there, comprising 184 rolling acres, is or was, the highest ground in New Jersey . . . ."

David,

My book appears to be similar to yours.

Brown also refers to Crumps old records and his interest in the property..
So the club must have those old records.

Did they retain them, or did they exit the property, similar to the schematic reaquired by TEPaul and He whose name cannot be mentioned, Lord Voldemort ?

The mention of the stream,  then pond, then lake, dammed by three concrete dams, is also interesting.
But, what's most interesting is the statement that "an 18 foot swimming pool has been built"

_______________________________________

I can't quite believe you think that PV would definitely never have saved a newspaper clipping unless all the information had been vetted as absolutely true.  Care to reconsider this?  Does this apply to other clubs as well?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat,

When was East Atlantic Avenue built?

The nearest the White Horse Pike gets to Pine Valley's property is 1.2 miles and on the 1898 topo the only road from that direction was the private road through the Sumner Ranch.

You may recall that Pine Valley later acquired access to this road which means they did not have access prior.

That's not necessarily true.  Access or ROW is granted on private roads

Clementon Park was built in 1907 or 1908...it's possible the road was built as access to the park from the Sumner/Pine Valley station but I wouldn't be sure of it...why get off at Sumner when you could get off in Clementon?

Because Sumner was closer to the park then Clementon.

Why have any station at Sumner if you didn't have access getting to and from it ?

If they didn't drive through the Sumner property then the only way to get to Pine Valley would have been on the train...

But Jim, you're own newspaper accounts clearly state that they drove to the site, frequently.
Repeat, they made MANY drives to the site.

If there were no roads, how would you drive to the site ?

How would you get to and from the train station to your destination ?

Do you think they just dropped passengers off in the wilderness.

How did passengers get to and from the train station if there were no roads ?

Please, get more sleep.

[JESII]

In 1950 Joseph Baker wrote down his recollections:

"The recollections of Joseph H. Baker of the PVGC and of George A. Crump, the founder - good friend of many years and hunting companion on more than fifty trips over the United States.

He secured the right-of-way from the Ireland property for a road one hundred feet wide for about ninety-nine years and in the old days that is the way we came to Pine Valley - by way of Watsontown.

Pat,

Watson town was North of the property and not far East of the Amusement Park. If East Atlantic Avenue was built, why would they have to take the ROW across the Ireland property? Prior to having the ROW, did they have direct access to the property?

[DMoriarty]

My only quote from Brown is that he says the newspaper is worth quoting in full...that's why I put that after the words John Arthur Brown and a colon. The next section that says Philadelphia Inquirer... ending with a colon indicating what follows is from the paper. Should have been pretty clear although I wouldn't have expected Pat to pick it up...

Huh?  This doesn't make sense.  You held it out as if this section of the article was quoted by Brown. There is no reason to include the quote in conversation about Brown and what he wrote in his book, unless you thought Brown quoted it in his book.   Surely you wouldn't have been trying to trick us into believing he quoted something he didn't so I can only suppose that you just assumed he quoted the whole article like he said he did.  

Earlier in the thread both you and Bryan quoted the first part of Brown, then indicated that the next page "continues with the description from the paper that we've seen before."   That you used identical language leads me to believe that you are both relying on the same source of this article.  The problem is, Brown doesn't continue on with the article, but rather only with part it.  He excluded the part you seem to be relying upon.   I just went and checked Bryan's initial post, and he has it wrong there as well.  He has Brown quoting the same portion of the article you quoted above.   This too is wrong, at least according to the 1978 edition.    

I know you guys were unwittingly injecting this material into the Brown book and understand how it could have happened, but I hope you guys understand that this is getting rather frustrating from this end.  You guys apparently let certain ex-posters get you all riled up about how TomM must be concealing material or up to other untoward acts, and now it seems it is just one rush after an other, and none of it ever pans out.  You both should know better than to take your lead from them.   Both made fools of themselves when they were posters, and laying along with them now will only make you look bad.

Anyway, if you ever get a chance to take a look at the Brown book, you will see that is largely a collection of extended quotes from various articles and description.  The vast majority of the text is quotations and most of the rest seems to be paraphrases.   It is almost as if someone typed out the highlights of a scrapbook, paraphrasing in between the quotes to try and tie it all together.    

[Patrick_Mucci]

My only quote from Brown is that he says the newspaper is worth quoting in full...that's why I put that after the words John Arthur Brown and a colon. The next section that says Philadelphia Inquirer... ending with a colon indicating what follows is from the paper. Should have been pretty clear although I wouldn't have expected Pat to pick it up...

I did pick it up, that's why I made my comment.
The presentation could be construed as misleading, and I didn't want other to be misled.

[JESII]

David,

This is what I said Brown said. In another post I reiterated that Brown says perfectly clearly that the January 4th, 1914 article is "WORTH QUOTING IN FULL" regarding the discovery of the site...

This from John Arthur Brown…the 50 year President of the club:

"Pine Valley had a rather unusual beginning.

   In the early 1900 a group of enthusiastic golfers from the Philadelphia Country Club at Bala, Pennsylvania, occasionally journeyed to Atlantic City on the Reading Railroad to play the Atlantic City Country Club. George Crump was the leader of the group.

   OUR OLD RECORDS INDICATE that on one trip to Atlantic City, Crump saw pasture land near the town of Clementon, New Jersey, which apparently was suitable for a golf course. This raised is curiosity and later he and Howard Perrin, the first President of the Pine Valley Golf Club, spent several days tramping over the grounds which now comprise the Club.

   The property at the time was owned by Sumner Ireland who had a residence nearby. The railroad station at that point was then called Sumner.

   CRUMP’S OLD RECORDS INDICATE his interest in the property and the possibility, as he saw it, for the development of a most interesting inland golf course under seaside conditions, as the property had one time had been covered by the ocean.

   Crump formed a syndicate and in 1912 bought 184 acres from Mr. Ireland. Some of the old newspaper articles are interesting in this connection. The Philadelphia Inquirer on Sunday, January 4, 1912, is worth quoting in full. It gives and excellent description."

I know you have the priviledge of individual interpretations that have little to do with reality but do you really think John Arthur Brown was referencing a mythological bogus story from a newspaper clipping that he stumbled upon?

[Patrick_Mucci]

In 1950 Joseph Baker wrote down his recollections:

"The recollections of Joseph H. Baker of the PVGC and of George A. Crump, the founder - good friend of many years and hunting companion on more than fifty trips over the United States.

He secured the right-of-way from the Ireland property for a road one hundred feet wide for about ninety-nine years and in the old days that is the way we came to Pine Valley - by way of Watsontown.

Pat,

Watson town was North of the property and not far East of the Amusement Park.

If East Atlantic Avenue was built, why would they have to take the ROW across the Ireland property?

Many people would characterize it as a "shortcut"
What always amazes me is your exclusionary thought process.
ie, if they had to get a ROW, EAA couldln't exist.
That's flawed logic and a false conclusion.

Prior to having the ROW, did they have direct access to the property?

In what context would you evaluate my answer.

Contrary to the opinions of others, East Altantic Ave between the Amusement Park and PV was well developed by 1931, with at least seven roads leading north off of East Atlantic Ave.

As to East Atlantic Avenue, it wasn't unusual to have a road parallel railroad tracks in the 1800's and early 1900's.

Presently, I can't tell you the date that East Atlantic Ave became operational to traffic, but, it clearly predates 1931.

In addition to East Atlantic Ave and the seven or more roads leading north from it in, between the AP and PV, in 1931 other roads led to PV, including Old Mill Road, 2nd Avenue and Stone Hall Rd, or 3rd Avenue.

So, I wouldn't be so quick to paint the course as inaccessible except by parachute drop

[JESII]

Pat,

I don't know when East Atlantic Avenue was built and neither do you. It's quite easy to say.

What makes you think Old Mill Rd was publicly accessible? If it was, why would Pine Valley need a right of way? East Atlantic Avenue would have been more direct than Old Mill as well...but maybe they wanted to avoid all the traffic you guys were typing about earlier...

[JESII]

An interesting comment in that January 1914 article is that they are already planting trees along the fairways...

[Patrick_Mucci]

An interesting comment in that January 1914 article is that they are already planting trees along the fairways...

Jim,

It would seem to be an indication that they cleared far more than they needed to clear and wanted to repopulate the cleared areas outside of the playing corridors.

It makes perfect sense.

[DMoriarty]

Come on Jim, if it was worth quoting it in full, then why didn't he quote it in full?  And why did you quote it as if he quoted it?  Obviously you did not know what he quoted.   Neither did Bryan.  

You aren't really trying to offer the only portion of the article he left out as the definitely accurate part, are you?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat,

I don't know when East Atlantic Avenue was built and neither do you. It's quite easy to say.

We do know that it was prior to 1931.
I'm sure that we could ascertain the date it was used to convey traffic with more research.

What makes you think Old Mill Rd was publicly accessible?

What makes you think it wasn't ?

If it was, why would Pine Valley need a right of way?

There could be a number of reasons, including commercial traffic gaining access to PV

East Atlantic Avenue would have been more direct than Old Mill as well...

Only if you're coming from the West.
Don't forget that Berlin Rd/TPK was an established thoroughfare and Old Mill Rd intersected it and led directly to PV.

Just because you don't know the answer doesn't mean that roads leading to PV didn't exist.

but maybe they wanted to avoid all the traffic you guys were typing about earlier...

It could have been the quality of the Berlin Tpk, perhaps they prefered remaining on the BT then shunting off it directly to PV.

Don't be so smug in your conclusions, you've been in error too many times to enjoy unbridled confidence.

[Bryan Izatt]

Patrick,

Apparently there isn't anything that you can't twist, pervert, and misstate in furtherance of your agenda.  It is really a waste of time trying to discuss anything with you.

Pat,

I don't know when East Atlantic Avenue was built and neither do you. It's quite easy to say.

We do know that it was prior to 1931.
I'm sure that we could ascertain the date it was used to convey traffic with more research.

I'll help you narrow down your range of dates.  East Atlantic Road was not on the deeds as of 1917.

What makes you think Old Mill Rd was publicly accessible?

What makes you think it wasn't ?

In November 1914 Virginia Ireland sold to Pine Valley Golf Club a right of access to a private road across her property from the Clementon - New Freedom Road to the Sumner RR station.  That road is now called Old Mill Road.  You missed this in the deeds thread, I guess.

If it was, why would Pine Valley need a right of way?

There could be a number of reasons, including commercial traffic gaining access to PV

There was one reason.  It was private.  Commercial traffic?!?!?  Have you ever driven it?  Do you know that it is one lane and at least partly a grass track?





East Atlantic Avenue would have been more direct than Old Mill as well...

Only if you're coming from the West.
Don't forget that Berlin Rd/TPK was an established thoroughfare and Old Mill Rd intersected it and led directly to PV.

Just because you don't know the answer doesn't mean that roads leading to PV didn't exist.

Hmmmm, he ends with a triple negative sentence.  Actually we do know that East Atlantic Ave didn't exist in 1910 - 1912.  BTW, the Berlin RD/TPK (as you call it) was actually called the Clementon - New Freedom Road in those days. Even today, part of it is called the Watsontown - New Freedom Road.

but maybe they wanted to avoid all the traffic you guys were typing about earlier...

It could have been the quality of the Berlin Tpk, perhaps they prefered remaining on the BT then shunting off it directly to PV.

Don't be so smug in your conclusions, you've been in error too many times to enjoy unbridled confidence.

Yup, Old Mill Road must have been a high quality grass road back in 1910 - 12.  It's certainly a high quality one lane partial grass road today.  And it might even still be private, running through the "Valley House" estate as it does.

[Tom MacWood]

I do not have the book. What do you think I'm missing?

I have the 1963 version of the book, and to call it simplistic would be an understatement. It is basically a collection of newspaper and magazine articles, or I should say quotes from newspapers and magazines, strung together in a semi-coherent manner. The exception are the first three or four paragraphs, which are not direct quotes, but I believe also come from articles.

The book begins with this first paragraph, "Pine Valley had a rather unusual beginning. In the early 1900s a group of enthusiastic golfers from the Philadelphia Country Club at Bala, Pennsylvania, occasionally journeyed to Atlantic City on the Reading Railroad to play the Atlantic City CC. George Crump was the leader of this group."

I believe this comes from Tilly's article in American Golfer the month or two prior to the train article:
"At the turn of the century, it was the habit of a few Philadelphia golfers to spend their winter weekends, playing the original eighteen holes at Northfield, the cours of the Country Club of AC. There they found winter conditions very different from those of the Quaker City, only sixty miles distant. Every Saturday morning the coterie of enthusiasts boarded the train, possibly leaving inches of snow at home, knowing wel that the seaside course would be free of it and the temperature four or five degrees higher. The regulars included George Crump, Howard Perrin, Cameron Buxton, Robert Large, WP Smith, AH Smith, Frank Bohlen, Wirt Thompson and myself" I doubt Brown had direct access to American Golfer because otherwise he would have known, with a little independent research, that these guys were not all member of PCC at Bala, in fact most of them were members of rival clubs.

The next paragraph in the book is the one dealing with the train which you have twice mislead us to believe comes from 'Crump's notes.' "Our old records indicate that on one trip to Atlantic City, Crump saw a pasture land near the town of Clementon, New Jersey, which apparently was suitable for a golf course...."

This comes from either Tilly's American Golfer article or his Philadelphia Record article, which are similar:
"This section is to have still another golf course, one which may eclipse any of the others.  Although I have known of the plans for over a year, I had promised secrecy and only recently have I absolved from that promise; consequently the announcement appears in print today for the first time.  Every one is aware of the superiority of South Jersey courses during the winter months, and golfers from Philadelphia spend many week-ends on the links at Atlantic City during the cold weather.  The sandy soil quickly melts snow and drains very quickly, and is altogether admirable for the purposes of golf.  Nearly three years ago George A. Crump, the well known player, was on one of the Reading Railway trains, bound for the seaside links.  Glancing out of the window, he saw a tract of land which rivetted (sic) his attention instantly, for, unlike the usual flat Jersey landscape, this was beautifully rolling and hilly.  Immediately it occurred to him that the land would be ideal for a golf course.  It is situated close by the railroad tracks about 15 miles from Camden, near Clementon." The pasture part is odd.

The next paragraph in the book:
"The property at the time was owned by Sumner Ireland who had a residence nearby. The railroad station at that point was called Sumner."

The next paragraph in the book.
"Crump's old records indicate his interest in the property and the possibility, as he saw it, for the development of a most interesting inland golf course under seaside conditions, as the property at one time had been covered by ocean." As I indicated a couple of pages ago I believe he is referring to the letter Crump wrote to his friends in 1912, and that he may have also borrowed from a paragraph HW Wind's 1950 article where Wind quotes the letter and then immediately goes into ancient sea aspect.

The next paragraph quotes the Philadelphia Inq from 1/4/1914. He then briefly talks about Colt followed by a quote from American Golfer on Govan, followed by a quote by Ben Sayers in American Golfer. Followed by a Quote from the Philadelphia Public Ledger, followed by a quote from a letter from Charles Knapp, followed by a quote from the NY Evening Sun, followed by a quote from the Philadelphia Record, followed by a quote from  William Evans (Public Ledger), followed by another quote from the Public Ledger, followed by another quote from the Public Ledger, followed by a quote from American Golfer, followed by a quote from Philadelphia Evening Ledger, and so on and so on. The book reads like a scrapbook, and that is what I believe the source information came from either a scrapbook or a collection of articles, and letters, that had been snipped out over the years. Those were the club records he was referring to. In 1963 it would have been too difficult for Brown to go through hours and hours of microfiche in multiple libraries.

There are no Crump notes.

[Tom MacWood]

Regarding Baker here is a quote from Wind's 1950 article:

"Across the road from Hollenback lives Joseph H. Baker who, at ninety, is the club's oldest member and the borough's most popular citizen. 'Colonel' Baker, as he has been called for four decades, built his first home at PV in 1916. A few years ago, cataracts in both eyes forced him to give his golf but otherwise he has slowed down hardly at all. There is still the spring of the athlete in the colonels step as he hustles to greet his friends who walk over from the club to pass the evening with him. After he has prepared the drinks and made everyone welcome, the colonel, his white hair covered by a twill hat of the Walter Travis era, stretches out in his lawn chair and needs very little coaxing to burst into Just a Wee Deoch an' Doris and his other favorites in a strident baritone.

The old boy is the last link with the old times, the days of George Crump, his companion on fifty hunting trips and hundreds of golf rounds, was consumed with the idea of creating PV. Whenever he relates 'how George did it,' Colonel Baker rises to his highest pitch of animation--and it is understandable. For anyone who loves golf and golf courses, the genesis of PV is one of the truly stirring stories."

I believe Baker was a major source for both Wind and Shelly, and most likely the source of those hunting photographs. In fact I believe Baker is in one of those photos.

[JESII]

You aren't really trying to offer the only portion of the article he left out as the definitely accurate part, are you?

David,

Brown said the article was worth quoting in full...get a grip on this. It's quite simple.

Did the article mention a hunting preserve? No, it mentioned a concerted effort since 1903 or '04 to find a suitable place for a golf course.

[JESII]

Tom,

What do you think the Wind/Baker post there says about anything? Is there a question that Baker hunted with Crump? The fact that you think Baker was Shelley's source for the hunting stories is fine but Baker had his own story on the discovery and according to you he was the "only person asked to write a complete account of Crump's formation of the course"... Let's take his word for it instead of whatever you think Wind had to say...

[Tags:]

Tags:

[Tags:]

Tags:

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()