Isn't this pretty standard when the area in question is attached to a major metropolitan area? As you move away from Camden/Philadelphia the hunting would improve...no?
Generally, but it also would depend upon the nature of the grounds. Flat, farmed land is generally not ideal for hunting whereas hilly, wooded land is generally better. Judging by various reports, Clementon and environs was apparently among the better places to hunt in Camden County, particularly for small game and quail. As a sportsman Crump would have been aware of this.
I would have thought Joseph Baker would have been aware of the family hunting grounds, wouldn't you Tom?
I cannot speak for TomM, but as a long time hunting companion of Crump's, I would think that Baker would have been aware of where Crump commonly hunted. Ironically, this seems to be very similar to the position that is causing you so much alarm. I don't know for certain, but Baker is the possible source behind Shelley's version explaining Crump's familiarity with Pine Valley, and would have been someone who may have been able to identify Crump's location in those photographs.
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Jim, I have read your collection of comments and quotes above, and I fail to understand the fuss. TomM wrote, "I suspect is also the primary source for Crump's familiarity with the site from hunting.” And when asked why he suspected this, he pointed you toward a statement about their years of hunting together.
In other words you guys agree. You both think that Baker would be a reliable source on whether or not Crump was familiar with the land from hunting. You both apparently view Baker as "a credible source," as TomM put it. You two take this inference in different direction. Tom suspects that Baker may be the source behind the Shelly account, and this seems reasonable to me. I am not sure what you think, but it seems you are arguing it is somehow unreasonable to
suspect that Baker may have told Shelly that Crump knew the land from hunting, or to call Baker the
likely source. I don't get this.
Whatever you think, you claimed that TomM
fabricated Baker's support. Surely after going back through the quotes you can see that he did not.
While I don't know for certain, Baker seems a likely source to me, and I suspect it was him who confirmed the hunting story and the photos to Shelly. Does this mean I too just fabricated Baker's support as well?
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As for Brown, he wrote his account 50 years after the fact. Are you really arguing that AWT's account cannot properly be called isolated even though it stood alone
a half a century?
When I read Brown, I assumed, rightly or wrongly, it was derivate of the newspaper articles, and that these were the records to which he referred. Shelly seemed to confirm this when he stated that the train story came from newspaper accounts. Wrongly or rightly, I have assumed that Shelly and Brown had access to the exact same records. Does Brown's account differ from the newspaper accounts in any significant regard?
I don't think Brown "stumbled upon" the newspaper accounts. I think it more likely that the club kept a record of such things. Do you think something happened to the "club records" between the brown and shelley books?
Also, none of this really backs up your claim, which was that TomM was intentionally hiding the Brown version (as if he was the only one with access to Brown.) One look at TomM's IMO piece proves that this was not the case.
Why is it that the 50 year President of the club plus two of George Crump's closest friends throughout the process made it clear that he found the site in the course of a search and did not mention hunting or anything of the like?
First, I assume we agree that, despite your earlier claim the contrary, Baker was not there and that his account is fifty years removed? Second, as to the other two, to whom do you think they should have mentioned it, and how do you know that they didn't mention it to anyone? Do you think they anticipated this idiocy?
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Jim, as for your question to Patrick, AWT's story isn't even consistent on the point (pun intended.) AWT's more contemporaneous accounts do NOT say that AWT pointed out the property from the train, do they? Didn't he write that Crump kept it to himself. Didn't AWT add the point and himself to the story in 1933?