The Story of the Discovery of the Pine Valley Property

[DMoriarty]

It seems likely that Travers first played Pine Valley (with Crump accompanying) on June 24, 1915.  Earlier that day he had reportedly beaten Max Marston in the finals for Lynnewood Hall Cup at Huntingdon Valley, 2 and 1.  His victory was widely publicized, as was his record breaking medal score in the medal play round a few days earlier.  He had just recently won the 1915 U.S. Open Championship at Baltusrol, and was at the height of popularity.

From the "Clubs and Clubmen" column of the Philadelphia Inquirer, June 27, 1924:  "Travers, after he had beaten Marston in the finals of the Lynnewood Hall Cup, was motored down to Pine Valley by George C. Thomas, Jr., and played high class golf there.   He said that the course had wonderful possibilities."

My question remains.

Travers made it abundantly clear (and repeatedly so) that his information came from Crump himself.  On what basis are we to doubt or discount his version?  

[DMoriarty]

Bryan, I just reread your Travis section in your original post and your changes.   I am nearly (but not quite) speechless.  You've really allowed this hunting story vs. train story battle take hold of you Bryan.  You should really step back, clear your head, and try to get your bearings.  

The story says that Crump hunted quail "as a boy" with a shotgun and in the company of "his comrades".  Seems a little romantic to me to envisage "boys" hunting with shotguns and knowing that they are on land that would become Pine Valley 15 or 20 years later.  The Pine Valley tract was private property with Bowman the owner when Crump was a boy.  There is no mention of hunting it in 1909 as Shelley later describes based on photographs.  I question how he could have been hunting on it both as a boy and when he rediscovered it as a potential golf course.

You aren't seriously discounting Travers version because it sounds too "romantic" for boys to have been hunting quail with shotguns the 1800's, are you?  The first time I (legally) hunted quail with a shotgun I was 12 years old.  That was a while a go, but not the 1800's!   I cannot confirm it personally, but reportedly to this day New Jersey law authorizes the issuance of youth hunting licenses to children aged 10 to 16, provided they have passed a hunter safety course.  (N.J. Stat. Ann. §23:3-3)  And while I haven't hunted in years, I know for certain that friends and members of my family with whom I hunted as a boy are still hunting some of the same exact parcels of land I hunted as a 12 year old, and some of them  had been hunting that land for decades prior to that.  And it is someone else's private land.

And of course Travers does NOT say that Crump actually knew the land on which he was hunting would eventually become Pine Valley Golf Club.  That doesn't even make sense, does it?  So why pretend that Travers made such a claim?  

And your suggestion that the 1909 hunting photo must somehow represent the moment (or even the year) they discovered the land is preposterous.  You have long been acting as if the 1909 photograph was Shelley's only support for the hunting version of the story, but this has been a far fetched assumption on your part.  

Where does any source say that Crump only began hunting the land in 1909?  I recall no such source.  If Crump was hunting there in 1909, then there is a good chance he and his family had long been hunting there.  Was travers supposed to document every year Crump hunted the land?  Preposterous.  

Seriously, is this really your grounds for discounting Travers' version?

_______________________________

As an aside, Travers and Crump also met in the first round of matchplay of the 1915 US Amateur on August 31 in Detroit.   Travers won handily 14 and 13 (36 hole match.)

[Bryan Izatt]

Tom,

Thanks for posting the Baker stuff.  Do you have his complete remembrances?

Is the quoted part contiguous or are there missing pieces.  It seems a little disjointed.  For instance, he mentions the other people he played with in the early years and then segues in the next paragraph to "we" went to Europe.  I assume that didn't mean the 9 people in the preceding paragraph.

There are a couple of things that don't seem to match other sources.  See below.  My guess is that some of the details were a little fuzzy after 38 years.  They would be for me.

In 1950 Joseph Baker wrote down his recollections:

"The recollections of Joseph H. Baker of the PVGC and of George A. Crump, the founder - good friend of many years and hunting companion on more than fifty trips over the United States.

GAC started to play golf in Merchantville, NJ - his home - St. Davids, and Torresdale with Howard Perrin, Andy Carty, Wister Harvey, Jack Edwards, WW Atterbury, William P. Smith, Dick Hanson, Arnold Dawson, Frank Hayes and Cameron Buxton.

In 1910 we made a three months trip to Europe, playing on various golf courses - Walton Heath, Sunningdale, Turnberry, Prestwick, Hoylake (where he played with John Ball, champion of England - who best him two in one) and St. Andrews (where I bought my first golf clubs). I bought a corduroy bag and five clubs for about $15.00 and then we went down to Cirgere in Dover, where there are three golf courses, and he played fifty-four holes in one day. From there we went to Carlsbad, Luzerne, Nice and the Cagnes Club. Rome and Paris completed our trip to Europe and returned home.

Once home Crump paid a visit to Brown Mills, where he thought of building a golf course. Then with the same object in view he went to Absecon, where the present country club is located. In Absecon he found the mosquitos so many and vicious that he decided it would not do. He came back to Merchantville and started to buy the ground at Sumner station, which was later changed to Pine Valley. He paid $50.00 for most of it, and for some ground paid $100 per acre.  There is a discontinuity between this and the deeds.  In the deeds Crump paid $8,750 for 184.31 acres.  That's $47.47 an acre, not some for $50.00 and some for $100.00.  He secured the right-of-way from the Ireland property for a road one hundred feet wide for about ninety-nine years and in the old days that is the way we came to Pine Valley - by way of Watsontown.  In 1914 Virginia Ireland granted Pine Valley free and unhindered access from the Clementon - New Freedom Road to Pine Valley across her property on an existing 30 foot wide (not 100) road - what is now called Old Mill Road.  It was forever, not 99 years.

At one of the luncheons at my house I had Andrew T. Dice, President of the Reading Company, and he said since we had no station at PV he would have one built, which was done. in those days we had lots of trains stopping at PV - express trains to and from.  I wonder where?  All the other sources only mention Sumner Station.  One wonders how many trains there were to serve 200 members and their guests?

After buying the property Mr. Crump sent for Mr. Colt, who laid out the Sunningdale course in England...."

Baker is the primary source for a lot of info. The 1910 trip to the UK, the consideration of two sites prior to, and the train station. I suspect is also the primary source for Crump's familiarity with the site from hunting. Is there a mention of hunting in Baker's recollections?  I don't see it in what you quote above.  Or, is it just your suspicion?  Do you suppose that Baker was the source for Uzzell's and Nunneville's discredited claims in 1927 that Crump inherited or purchased a 300 acre hunting preserve years earlier?

Baker's home at PV was the first house, after Crump's, built on the property in 1916. He lived there for about forty years, and I believe Shelly later lived in that same home. Shelly became a member in 1928. I believe both men served many years as mayor of the town of PV. Baker was a major source, and is quoted often, in Wind's extensive article on PV written in 1950. I suspect he was an important source for Shelly as well.

Baker's mention of the three courses at Dover is most likely the three courses at Sandwich. Apparently Finegan, quoting Baker, says they were Royal St. George's, Royal Cinque Ports, and Princes.

Although Crump and Tilly no doubt were acquaintances, being among the better players in Philadelphia, I wonder if Tilly didn't over play their relationship. All of Crump's closest friends were among the original founders of the club; Tilly was never even a member of the club. Based on what I have read I get the impression Tilly was sort of a lose canon, socially, financially and professionally, where as Crump's friends and founders were all very successful men in their respective fields...including Dr. Carr, the Catholic priest.  I'm happy to see that you edited out one of your other derogatory remarks about AWT.  There is really no need to try to posthumously tear down the man's reputation and credibility.  Just because men are successful or priests doesn't mean they are either credible or reliable witnesses to history.

[Tom MacWood]

In 1950 Joseph Baker wrote down his recollections:

"The recollections of Joseph H. Baker of the PVGC and of George A. Crump, the founder - good friend of many years and hunting companion on more than fifty trips over the United States....."

Bryan
Baker and Crump travelled together. Anyone who has read any of the three PV histories, or my essay, would know that. The fact that you do not illustrates how much interest you have in golf architecture history and the history of PV. It is a little frustrating dealing with someone like you - a historically blind person. God only knows why you have interjected yourself in to this historical discussion, but hopefully you will soon realize your total lack of understanding and knowledge of history has led you to wasting a lot of time trying to prove a bogus story...a  story, that in the greater scheme of things, is not all that important. Why is it important for you to prove Tilly's train story?

Regarding matching the source info exactly, I'm sure after several decades some of Baker's numbers are off. For example he thought Colt was paid $10,000, which is probably off by a magnitude of ten. But the numbers are just a trivial detail IMO, and not that important when trying to figure out who did what and when, and what exactly happened regarding the development of the project, and above all how the architecture evolved. I know the history of the architecture is not important to you, but you should know this site is devoted to golf architecture, and the history of golf architecture.

What did I edit regarding Tilly?

[JESII]

Tom,

How do you feel about Crump telling Travers that he's known of this spot since his childhood? How do you think that plays into the Absecon and Browns Mills site searches? Baker condensed nearly two years into these four sentences but he does not eliminate consideration for the current site before the others...in fact, the words "he came back to Merchantville..." indicates to it could easily have been on his mind previously.

"Once home Crump paid a visit to Brown Mills, where he thought of building a golf course. Then with the same object in view he went to Absecon, where the present country club is located. In Absecon he found the mosquitos so many and vicious that he decided it would not do. He came back to Merchantville and started to buy the ground at Sumner station, which was later changed to Pine Valley"


Also, you speculated that the letter to his friends telling them about "landing on something pretty fine" must have been in August or September because they spent a month going over the land and then bought it in October. Do you know for a fact when he sent it?

[DMoriarty]

I'm happy to see that you edited out one of your other derogatory remarks about AWT.  There is really no need to try to posthumously tear down the man's reputation and credibility.  Just because men are successful or priests doesn't mean they are either credible or reliable witnesses to history.

This sort of petty and underhanded cheap shot really ought to be beneath you, Bryan.  Look at the timestamps on MacWood's post --two minutes elapsed from the time he posted until his edit.   So if there was another comment it was gone almost immediately.  More likely you are wrong about there having even been a previous derogatory remark, and are just trying to stir shit up.  Either way, you owe MacWood an apology.

[Bryan Izatt]

Tom and David,

So, the indignation and personal attacks continue to intensify. 

I have posted the deeds and the transcripts of the discovery stories.  Interpret them how you wish.

[DMoriarty]

Bryan,  You started this thread as yet another shot at MacWood and as a continuation of your grudge against him.  You went back and edited out some of the nastiness in your original post last night (after it became apparent that your thesis had crumbled) but in its prior form you didn't even make it out of the first paragraph before you were taking gratuitous shots at him.   And in your last post you falsely accused him of making nasty comments and then editing those comments out of his posts.  And yet now you lecture us about "indignation and personal attacks."  Give us all a break!
_________________________________________________________

Let's stick to the subject-matter.

I fail to understand your basis for discounting Travers' version of what you call the discovery story.   Travers tells us explicitly that his source was Crump himself.   His version is consistent with a number of other versions.  So on what basis do you discount his story?


Thanks. 

[JESII]

David,

Travers story is not consistent with any of the others. While he does say Crump was his source, his is th eonly account which dates the "discovery" to childhood. This is pretty significant in my opinion.

[DMoriarty]

Jim,

Some of the other sources mention he was familiar with the land from hunting the land.   I've never taken this to mean that he first hunted this land in the 1909-1910 timeframe and have never understood why others took it this way.   

What do you mean by "pretty significant?"

Do you think Travers made up his version? 

[JESII]

I think it's significant that Travers' is the only one to say he'd been familiar with the place since he was a child.

How likely do you think it is that Crump told Travers, and Travers alone, that he hunted on this specific parcel of land all the time when he was a child? I think it's much more likely that Crump spoke of spending countless hours hunting through the pine and scrub which would have been everywhere in those days and Travers romanticized it a bit by saying he "traversed every foot of the sandy soil"...do you think he actually traversed every foot?




Pat,

As Bryan asked previously...how is it that Crump would have pointed out the land to AWT if it were completely obstructed to someone on the train? It's an interesting dilemna isn't it...

[DMoriarty]

I think it's significant that Travers' is the only one to say he'd been familiar with the place since he was a child.

How likely do you think it is that Crump told Travers, and Travers alone, that he hunted on this specific parcel of land all the time when he was a child? I think it's much more likely that Crump spoke of spending countless hours hunting through the pine and scrub which would have been everywhere in those days and Travers romanticized it a bit by saying he "traversed every foot of the sandy soil"...do you think he actually traversed every foot?

Maybe we are reading different reports but I don't read the Travers statement as being entirely inconsistent with the various accounts him becoming familiar with the land while hunting, shooting, riding, etc.  The Travers description is more specific and goes further back in time, but I don't understand where you guys get this idea that he definitely just started hunting on the land in 1909?  The Travers description is much more detailed, and I don't think it reasonable to knock it because it contains details the others don't go into.  If anything the detailed and personal nature of the story lends credence to the account, and I find it very strange that you guys read it as distracting from the veracity.

I think this notion that Travers was romanticizing the story is just wishful thinking.  I don't understand the basis for it, other than you guys apparently don't want what Travers is saying to be true.  If he were corroborating AWT's account you would read it differently I am sure.   I think the Travers version pretty much settles the issue; or at the very least if it were a close call without the Travers passage, it isn't a close call now.   I still don't care one way or another, but if the best you guys can do is portray the Travers account as too romanticized then you don't have much of a leg to stand on, especially when we compare it to the evolving accounts of AWT.

You ask how likely it was that he told Travers alone about hunting there as a kid.  This is a loaded question and contains an unsupportable assumption on your part.  Crump may have told many people about hunting the land as a child, and it just may not have made it into every history in its unabridged form.  The story may be at the root of every one of them except for AWT's.  It fits with what we know of Crump, it provides an avenue to make some sense out of stories with mistaken elements, such as the one about how it was his family's hunting grounds-- in may well have been his family's hunting grounds in the sense that it is where they hunted.  It would explain why so many accounts seem to evolve around hunting or shooting or riding.   It even puts the apparently the far fetched references to the Leatherstocking Tales into perspective. 

And Travers apparently ran in the same crowd as Crump.  According to the Clubs and Clubmen column in the Inquirer he was close friends with Cameron Buxton, a founder and board member of Pine Valley.  (Buxton was also an important member of Huntingdon Valley and was the club president or something.)   As Tom mentioned Crump's closest friends were the founders of Pine Valley, and judging from the social pages, Buxton and Crump golfed and socialized together often.   While Travers was not a founder of the club, he was apparently in the same social group, and apparently quite fond of not only Pine Valley, but also Crump.

So, with all of this, it is a hell of a lot easier for me to believe he conveyed that he hunted over the land than it is for me to believe that he had no idea there were giant sand hills a dozen miles from where he grew up until he "chanced to glance through the window of a rapidly moving train."  The guy was a outdoorsman and a hunter for goodness sake, yet we are supposed to believe he had no awareness of what was probably the closest really interesting land to his home?

As for your question of whether I believe he "traversed every foot of the sandy soil,"  I think the question itself is pretty telling of the weakness of your position.   It is a figure of speech meant to convey a close familiarity with the land, and if Crump had been hunting the land for his entire life then no doubt he felt a close familiarity with the land the same way a golfer might feel about a course he had walked several hundred times.  So whether he and actually "traversed every foot" it probably felt like he did.
______________________________ 

All that said, I again think it important that at some point we distinguish between Crump being familiar with the nature of the land and Crump realizing that such could be turned into a premier golfing spot.  Given the state of golf in and around Philadelphia before 1910 it is entirely possible that Crump was very familiar with the nature land but didn't realize its full potential for golf until he traveled abroad and saw some of the courses over there, particularly heathland courses which might have required major clearing to fully expose the potential for great golf.   Even then it is possible that he first searched for land which required less start up effort to bring the courses into fruition, for PV had some major obstacles to remove.

[Patrick_Mucci]

TMac, if he had hunted it previously, as a kid, whatever, wouldn't we have to ask why he would say he had just found the perfect site?  I will presume he didn't just start hunting it in 1912 while under active mining by Lumberton.  It seems like he knew it a long time according to most of the contemporary hunting accounts.

Jeff, I may have missed it, but where did Crump say he "JUST" found the perfect site "

Didn't you insert the word "just" to serve your purpose.

Bryan, you list a number of independent sources confirming the finding of the land vis a vis hunting, but repeat the same source over and over again stating that he found the site on the train, when infact, it's but one source, AWT, not several.  The body of evidence supports that Crump was familiar with the land vis a vis hunting.

I've asked Jim Sullivan, you and Bryan to point out, on that 1931 photo, just where Crump was when he spotted those rollling hills and valleys.
To date, NO ONE has identified that position, or any position for that matter.

It seems as if the same logic would apply - even moreseo - if he had known of the site for years.  And, not to word parse, but as Bryan pointed out, his exact words weren't that he had just found it, but that he had landed on something pretty fine.

As to the relative worth of the stories, frankly, both sound bogus or lengendary to me.  It doesn't suprise me, as everyone wanted to relay their role in the great creation.  Deciding whether Tillie's or the others are more bogus is a bit much, even if fun.  That said, I have always felt that Tillies three consistent tellings, and level of detail work in his favor, not against.  I simply don't agree that he would tell the same stories, and go into the detail of witholding info at Crump's request, him going out on his own before taking his group out, etc. 

Then show us, with the benefit of 20-20 hindsight, where Crump was when he made his chance glance and saw those rolling hills and valleys

Carr is also contemporary, involved and doesn't really discount a train siting.  He just says Crump looked over near Camden after the seaside idea was dropped and that they all went out in summer 1912 for a few months before buying the property later.

Yes, but Carr describes the site as dense forest and jungle like undergrowth, hardly the land that would lend itself to a panoramic view from a speeding train.

I am also of the opinion that Pat should drop his over reliance on Shelly, since its not a contemporaneous source.  It appears he was struggling with the credit much like we are.  He says there is evidence that Crump knew of the land, but its the same evidence we have - a photo and some contemporaneous accounts. 


Tha's absolutely not true, that's conjecture on your part.
You DON'T KNOW the extent of Shelly's evidence.
You're only assuming that the photo is the ONLY evidence at his disposal

 We are just as able to parse that as he was in 1982. 


Again, not true.
You don't know the extent or scope of the evidence at Shelly's disposal

 And, we know from other club histories, that they often just reviewed past material and rehashed it rather than do the extensive searching for more than many of you do here.  After all, he probably had a deadline, this site doesn't!

Again, that's conjecture on your part.
TEPaul told me that he met with Shelly and that  he was a serious, competent , highly respected individual, and you don't know if he had a deadline.
Chances are he was charged with creating PV's history and worked on HIS time frame, not anyone elses, that's just your attempt to discredit his efforts and undermine his position

I basically agree with Bryan, if you take Tillie and Carr, there is probably an explanation that fits both of their accounts.  Carr doesn't say he found it first on horseback, hunting or whatever.  Tillie would just have to be making up a lot of details, which I doubt he would do.  Did he exagerate the drama a bit to tell the story?  Sure.  He may have turned a passing mention of that site looking interesting for golf into a legend all its own, but with a grain of truth.

Did AWT accurately report Crumps Death.... ever ?
Did he ever correct his misreprorting of Crumps death ?
5,10 15 or 20 years later ?

[JESII]

But David...the majority of the others attribute Crumps familiarity with the land to his hunting trip(s) as  grown man, not as having known it since childhood. This is a huge distinction. If Travers is correct, which he may well be, the other are all incorrect. There is no debating that. Read through them again, the ones that actually mention anything about when he might have first hunted on the ground speak about him as a grown man. Travers account stands alone...which doesn't make it wrong, it just makes it unique.

[Bryan Izatt]

Patrick,

When you jump back in, do you ever actually go back and read what has been written by others?  I know, and accept, that you are a busy man, but .......................

[Tom MacWood]

I'm happy to see that you edited out one of your other derogatory remarks about AWT.  There is really no need to try to posthumously tear down the man's reputation and credibility.  Just because men are successful or priests doesn't mean they are either credible or reliable witnesses to history.

Bryan
What did I edit out?

[Tom MacWood]

Tom,

How do you feel about Crump telling Travers that he's known of this spot since his childhood? How do you think that plays into the Absecon and Browns Mills site searches? Baker condensed nearly two years into these four sentences but he does not eliminate consideration for the current site before the others...in fact, the words "he came back to Merchantville..." indicates to it could easily have been on his mind previously.

"Once home Crump paid a visit to Brown Mills, where he thought of building a golf course. Then with the same object in view he went to Absecon, where the present country club is located. In Absecon he found the mosquitos so many and vicious that he decided it would not do. He came back to Merchantville and started to buy the ground at Sumner station, which was later changed to Pine Valley"


Also, you speculated that the letter to his friends telling them about "landing on something pretty fine" must have been in August or September because they spent a month going over the land and then bought it in October. Do you know for a fact when he sent it?

Jim
Have you read the Carr article? How else would you interpret his timeline of events?

JE Ford said that Crump and Perrin first began going over the site late in the summer of 1912. Wind said it took place in the autumn of 1912. Finegan said the letter went out in the early Autumn 1912. Shelly said it went in the Fall of 1912. Based on those accounts I think it reasonable to conclude the letter went out August or September. When do you think it went out?

Regarding Travers' account, he is not the only one who said he knew the site as a boy. I think he may have also hunted there as a young man and later, which is consistent with other accounts. They are not mutually exclusive. Carr also tells us he looked at other sites prior to Clementon, including Absecon. I think it is very possible knew of the site from hunting, but did not consider its suitability for golf until later, which is probably why it took them a month to study it before purchasing.

What is obvious to any objective person, from the seven or eight independent accounts, is that Crump knew the site through hunting, not from a train trip. The 1910 train story is obviously bogus, but as you know when it comes to Philly legends objectivity and logic are replaced by emotion and sentiment. Even minor legends go down hard.

[Jeff_Brauer]

TMac,

good morning and Merry Xmas Eve.  While coming around to the hunting as first knowledge way of thinking, I prefer to think that the train is simply the first time Tillie heard it, and thus he reported that way.  Not totally bogus, in other words, just not quite the full story, as Pat says.

As to deciding on the site, and not knowing it was suitalbe for golf until the summer of 1912 (if that is what you imply above) I think we have to consider the 1910 cable from GBI asking for maps around Clementon, and Tillie's account that Crump mentioned the site on a train trip around the same time, no?  (says "some 3 years ago" writing in 1913)

To me the mystery is why he had considered that site, and then went ahead looking at other sites as directed by his less powerful (than he, as major investor) committee and looking at the AC sites.  The only thing we know is we are glad he did decide based on golf quality over weather quality or other activities at Atlantic City!

Am I right that a tough golf course was part of the original idea back in 1910?

[DMoriarty]

Jim, Like TomM I don't see the stories as mutually exclusive for reasons I have tried to explain.

But suppose there are many different versions of Crump having hunted the land but they all mention him having done so at different stages of life.  Where do we go from here?  Throw them all out and go with a story where Crump, the hunter and outdoorsman, has never noticed the large tree covered sand hills a dozen miles from his home until a chance glance from a fast moving train? 

[JESII]

1915 Simon Carr

     “They desired a course where there would be
practically no closed season throughout the year. In
discussing the problem, they had the seaside in mind,
chiefly the region about Atlantic City; but the great
distance from Philadelphia, and the extreme difficulty
of securing a suitable location, caused the
project of a seashore course to be dropped.
      The region outside of Camden was searched in all
directions, until, finally, Mr. George A. Crump discovered
a perfectly wonderful bit of golf land at
Sumner Station, on the Atlantic City Division of the
Reading Railroad, thirteen miles outside of Camden.
"I think we have happened on something pretty
fine," he reported to his friends in Philadelphia. His
friends hastened down to have a look at the discovery.
The tract was heavily wooded with pine and oak, and
had an undergrowth as dense as a jungle. For a
month it was gone over carefully on foot; every detail
of conformation was noted; the soil carefully examined
in all parts, and, finally, in October, 1912, a
tract of 184 acres was purchased.”

Carr, who was certainly contemporaneous with Crump and directly involved with Pine Valley, does not say anything about how Crump originally “discovered” the site other than he was searching in all directions.  Certainly, nothing definitive here about discovery through “hunting”.

Tom,

This timeline is also a stand alone as Carr makes it clear that when Crump discovered the site he was "searching in all direction" for a location for the golf course. How can you tie this to Travers' account? Or is there more to the Carr account which I have not seen? If so, can you post it?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick,

When you jump back in, do you ever actually go back and read what has been written by others?  I know, and accept, that you are a busy man, but .......................

Bryan,

I was specifically addressing Jeff's reply, not the others.

[JESII]

David,

When one guy says he's known the land very well his entire life and another guy says he discovered as a grown man they cannot both be correct. I don't care if we throw them out or not, but we cannot assume that, because a couple other people have contradictory stories that happen to have hunting as a common theme, AWT is a liar...and while you may not have taken that stance Tom and Pat have.

My perspective on this is as simple as...the view from the train tracks would have been dramatic and distinct from any view he had while hunting here. The land rises abruptly, and in different hills and ridges from the low points along the train tracks. It's this perspective that triggered his thoughts for the golf course. The 1909 - 1911 timeframe is also reasonable because this is when Crump really got thinking about building a golf course so land features are going to be more front of mind...like when you buy a black car and drive home all you see are black cars, I don't know why but it happens.

Discovery/recognition from the train is also wholly different than becoming intimately familiar with the land and a couple of the accounts are sympathetic to that process...but not Travers' due to the age of Crump at discovery.

[Jeff_Brauer]

I wonder about the hunting as a kid story from Travers, mainly because I think his co-author was really a ghost writer.  I have no doubts that Travers, on his 1915 exhibition match heard from Crump that he hunted the land, but wonder if the "real author" blindly thought to add the words "as a kid" merely assuming that was the case.  He is a wordsmith, and he is probably not a historian really fleshing out details for that kind of book.

To me, that is the most likely explanation for his being the only hunting as a kid account, but of course no one really knows.  It would be a case of him being one of the sources of legend about what was already a legendary place, without any enhancement.

Carr's scenario doesn't exactly square with Crump asking for a map of the area in 1910 either.  Somehow, Crump had PV in mind even as he was searching the AC region as per his committees request, IMHO.

Pat,

Merry Xmas to you, and as a gift to all of us, could you please stop speculating what or what not Crump saw from the train, just to keep us from being bored to tears?  Even as I agree with you that Tillie was probably mistaken in saying he first saw it from a train (although it could have been Crump's first mention to Tillie of it) I just don't think any of us can know what was visible back then, despite you sending us pictures of other places, PV now vs. then, etc.  You can talk all day, and call us names, etc. to try to shout us down, whatever, but really, none of us can know what he saw and its ridiculous to repeat yourself that way.

Thanks in advance, although I have no hopes you can really restrain yourself.  IF you do, I will really enjoy the gift!

[DMoriarty]

Jim,

I don't see hardline distinction you are trying to draw in the sources.

More importantly, I don't think anyone is calling anyone a liar.  IMO, this type of overreaction represents the vestiges of the posts of dimwits past, and it is time we moved beyond this sort of overly emotional and incendiary reaction to attempts at  frank conversation.  AWT obviously got it in his head that the discovery occurred from a train.  I don't know why or how, but my guess is that the train story hatched from early references (perhaps by Crump) to the location of the course in relation to the Sumner station, the RR, and the sudden change in topography.  To conclude the story wasn't true is not to call him a liar.   This exact immature rhetorical game has been tried again and again here and it is really time it stopped.  

This timeline is also a stand alone as Carr makes it clear that when Crump discovered the site he was "searching in all direction" for a location for the golf course. How can you tie this to Travers' account? Or is there more to the Carr account which I have not seen? If so, can you post it?

Again Jim,  I think we need to distinguish between Crump's familiarity with the nature of the land and his realization/decision to use the land as a golf course. Yes he was considering other sites, but this is understandable considering the challenges presented by the Pine Valley site.  Remember the timing of this whole thing, at the dawn of truly excellent golf in America.  It is easy for us to recognize the potential for golf now in hindsight but at the time Pine Valley was not the typical ideal site for golf. My guess is that is why so many articles emphasize the tree covered nature of the site and all the clearing, etc.    

[JESII]

David,

Pat has used the word Liar and Tom has called the story a total myth and bogus. If I pulled a piece of your Merion essay out and called it bogus and a total myth without you here to defend/explain yourself I think you would have every right to assume I was calling you a liar...especially when in the next post someone else uses the word liar and I don't distinguish my comments from theirs. These are not emotional and incendiary reactions, these are responses to the words used.