[DMoriarty]

Brown said the article was worth quoting in full...get a grip on this. It's quite simple.

Brown didn't quote the portion of the article on which you rely.  "...get a grip on this. It's quite simple."

Did the article mention a hunting preserve? No, it mentioned a concerted effort since 1903 or '04 to find a suitable place for a golf course.

Did Brown quote this part of the article?   No, he quoted all the rest, but NOT THE PORTION YOU KEEP TRYING TO ATTRIBUTE TO HIM.  

Surely you cannot seriously be attributing the excerpt to the Brown book or Brown?   It isn't in the book!

Take a step back and think about this Jim.  Imagine your reaction if TomM tried to pull such a stunt!  

[DMoriarty]

. . .

1963 John Arthur Brown

"Pine Valley had a rather unusual beginning.

   In the early 1900 a group of enthusiastic golfers from the Philadelphia Country Club at Bala, Pennsylvania, occasionally journeyed to Atlantic City on the Reading Railroad to play the Atlantic City Country Club. George Crump was the leader of the group.

   Our old record indicate that on one trip to Atlantic City, Crump saw pasture land near the town of Clementon, New Jersey, which apparently was suitable for a golf course. This raised is curiosity and later he and Howard Perrin, the first President of the Pine Valley Golf Club, spent several days tramping over the grounds which now comprise the Club.

   The property at the time was owned by Sumner Ireland who had a residence nearby. The railroad station at that point was then called Sumner.

   Crump's old records indicate his interest in the property and the possibility, as he saw it, for the development of a most interesting inland golf course under seaside conditions, as the property had one time had been covered by the ocean.

   Crump formed a syndicate and in 1912 bought 184 acres from Mr. Ireland. Some of the old newspaper articles are interesting in this connection. The Philadelphia Inquirer on Sunday, January 4, 1914, is worth quoting in full. It gives and excellent description.

"Just about ten years ago, according to their own estimates, a coterie of Philadelphia's deepest dyed-in-the-wool golfers began a search for an ideal links.  Their quest antedated the similar attempts of New Yorkers by a year at least.  By 1904 it was evident that golf had come to stay in America, but the subclay soils among Philadelphia suburbs made it impossible to play with any degree of comfort more than seven months each year, despite extensive drainage systems, put in at larger clubs like Merion.  But a sandy soil that would serve as a filter was not the only thing demanded.  The old guard and some of the new guard, too, for that matter, wished an up-to-date links scientifically trapped and requiring thinking golf, which is more than can be said for some clubs where pink teas and ham bites seem to be the chief end of man and woman.

At first the search was in a desultory way from hearsay and railroad car windows.  Years sped by without definite results, until it became apparent that a closer canvas must be begun, so many an automobile trip was made half with that end in view.

About two years ago, after locations as far away as Northfield and Somers Point had been exhausted, the choice narrowed to Pine Valley, close to the Reading Railway, sixteen miles below Philadelphia, on the direct line to Atlantic City.  It is also close to the White Horse pike, an automobile route.

             *       *          *          *

The land there, comprising 184 rolling acres, is, or was, the highest ground in Southern New Jersey, 200 feet at points above sea level, being 100 years ago the home of the Delaware Indians.  It is the watershed between the Tuckahoe and Delaware Rivers.  The first blow of the ax was struck there last February;   .........................""

Bryan, above is from your second post of the thread where you set out the various versions.  I've highlighted in red the portion that does NOT appear in the Brown book.  (Mine is the last edition, but I have no reason to believe substantive changes were made between editions.)    

Apparently, like Jim, you either received incorrect information or misunderstood the information you received from your behind the scenes sources.  I am looking at the book, and the section from the article you quote is not in it.  You may want to fix this, and reconsider whatever assumptions you have drawn from its inclusion in the Brown book.

[JESII]

David,

Does your version of the book say the January 4th article is worth quoting in full?

[DMoriarty]

David,

Does your version of the book say the January 4th article is worth quoting in full?

From the 1974 reprint of the book . . .

     
. . .
     Crump finally formed a syndicate and in 1912 bought 184 acres from Mr. Ireland.  Some of the old newspaper reports are interesting in this connection.  The Philadelphia Inquirer on Sunday, January 4, 1914, is worth quoting in full.  It gives an excellent description.
      "The land there, comprising 184 rolling acres is, or was, the highest ground in Southern New Jersey, 200 feet at points above the Sea Level, being more than 100 years ago the home of the Delaware Indians. . . ."

[JESII]

I'll take that as a yes. Thank you

[DMoriarty]

Jim, 

Is the portion of the article you quoted in any version of the Brown Book?

[Patrick_Mucci]

David,

Does your version of the book say the January 4th article is worth quoting in full?

Jim,

What you're missing is that the quote that follows JAB's remark is NOT the quote you posted.

After JAB states that the article is worth quoting in full, he states, "It gives and excellent description".

Then, the quote starts, "The land there, comprising 184...... "

Your quote does NOT appear in my book.

So, where did you get your apparently erroneous quote from ?

[DMoriarty]

Patrick,  I think Jim now knows the quote isn't in the book, but I am hoping he will clarify.

He nonetheless wants to argue that Brown was actually affirming the excluded portion because Brown wrote that the article was worth quoting in full, even though Brown quoted EVERYTHING BUT the part Jim thinks is important!  It is astounding.   Brown excludes one section of the article, and we are to believe that this excluded section is the one part he really believed?  Jim seems to have tied himself in knots here.

[JESII]

Brown spends four paragraphs discussing the "Story of the Discovery of the Pine Valley Property" and references a newspaper article which is "WORTH QUOTING IN FULL" for further clarification/color to the story.

He then moves on to the next step in the "HISTORY OF PINE VALLEY"...

Easy fellas, your rabid behavior might scare people off...


In John Arthur Brown's opinion, the January 4th, 1914 article is worth quoting in full.

[JESII]

Bryan,

I'm not sure if you're hoping to keep the page 1 sources up to date, but I think the January 4th, 1914 article (even without the authors name) could go on the list supporting the train story. If you do that, David makes a good point that the Brown reference is probably two distinct sources...Brown and the Inquirer.

David,

I guess Tillinghast wasn't so isolated for all those years after all.

[DMoriarty]

So you believe that the excluded portion of the January 4, 1914, article indicated that Crump first  became aware of the property from the window of a passing train in 1909 or 1910?   Fascinating.

[Bryan Izatt]

Jim,

Sure, I'll update it when time permits. Has anyone who has the first printing of the book confirmed that the full article was not quoted.  I guess that I'll also add the full article to the list.

Perhaps there should be three lists: the train, hunting, and others.  I'm beginning to suspect that the "others" list is a runner in this race.

[JESII]

So you believe that the excluded portion of the January 4, 1914, article indicated that Crump first  became aware of the property from the window of a passing train in 1909 or 1910?   Fascinating.

What I believe is that it's possible...as opposed to a bogus myth or lie...and that the Brown confirmation of the accuracy of the 1914 article supports that possibility...strengthens it.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jim,

If Crump sailed from New York for Europe on September 6th and didn't return to New York until December 11th, almost the entire fall, from the aspect of probability, can't you rule out any possible sighting in the winter of 2010 ?

[JESII]

Pat,

The article was published on January 12th 1912 so three years earlier would have been during the winter golf season of November 1909 - March 1910...not the end of 1910.

[Tom MacWood]

Tom,

What do you think the Wind/Baker post there says about anything? Is there a question that Baker hunted with Crump? The fact that you think Baker was Shelley's source for the hunting stories is fine but Baker had his own story on the discovery and according to you he was the "only person asked to write a complete account of Crump's formation of the course"... Let's take his word for it instead of whatever you think Wind had to say...

Where did I write Baker was the only person to write a history? I've searched those words within your quotation and didn't pull up anything.

What article was published on January 12th 1912?

[JESII]

August 4th in. Pine Valley and Topos.

[DMoriarty]

Jim, I view your last couple interpretations of Brown and that January 4, 1914 article as so attenuated that I don't think it is worth pursuing further.  You seem to have dug in your heels, and from my perspective it just doesn't seem like you striving for the most reasonable understanding of this stuff.    I don't think you can reasonably adopt as Brown's a section of an article he excluded from his book.  Likewise, I don't think you can reasonably read that excluded section of the article as supporting the AWT train story.   But you are determined and there is no use me trying to convince you otherwise.  Plus, it has become obvious that neither you nor Bryan can even begin to cast much doubt on TomM's (and Shelly's, TEPaul's, Travers, etc.) understanding of how Crump first became familiar with the property.   So what more is there to discuss?  

I believe the date of the AWT article you reference is January 12, 1913, not January 12, 1912.

Good luck! No hard feelings from me.

[Tom MacWood]

Could you post it? I can't find it.

[Tom MacWood]

Joseph Baker was Crump's close friend who he traveled to Europe with in 1910. To my knowledge he was only one asked to write a complete account of Crump's formation of the course....from their trip abroad to Crump's death. Travers said Crump discovered the site while hunting; Wilson said he discovered the site while on horseback. Most accounts say he found the site while hunting, Tilly is the exception. I agree with Pat when he said Tilly's story was designed more to entertain than to tell the accurate story.

Jim
Not only did you misquote me, you took what I said out of context, but that is par for the course, you did that yesterday too. Oh well.

[JESII]

Edited to clarify in the event you missed this...

Would love your clarification on how I misquoted you...

Tom,

What did Jerome Travers and Alan Wilson say about locating the site based on hunting there? The Browns Mills Site looks a more likely candidate for that discovery. Also, who was Joseph Baker? And can you just type the pertinent section?

Joseph Baker was Crump's close friend who he traveled to Europe with in 1910. To my knowledge he was only one asked to write a complete account of Crump's formation of the course....from their trip abroad to Crump's death. Travers said Crump discovered the site while hunting; Wilson said he discovered the site while on horseback. Most accounts say he found the site while hunting, Tilly is the exception. I agree with Pat when he said Tilly's story was designed more to entertain than to tell the accurate story.

[Bryan Izatt]

I have revised the opening posts to correct the quote from  the January 4, 1914 article in the Brown book.

I have also included the full first part of the January 4, 1914 article as a separate item.

Strangely there are now 8 stories on the train side.

It seems to me that it is silly to be considering this as a two-sided battle.  There are a number of the stories that are neither train nor hunting.  Surely they should be recognized as valid possibilities on their own.

 

[Bryan Izatt]

Patrick,

Will you agree that the following picture is before construction and before clearing on this part of the property?




This is what it looked like after construction.




Looks pretty open before construction.  I can see the the RR track up on the embankment.

[Bryan Izatt]

Tom,

If you recall not long ago I posted Baker's recollection of events and there was nothing regarding how the site was found

As usual, I can't find where you posted this.  I see many references to Browns Mills and Absecon and hunting and Wind, but it's all bits and pieces.  Where is the complete recollection of the discovery period posted. 

Do you have the complete recollections? Or, are you going on third part accounts of Baker's recollections.

Does anybody else have it?

Whatever it says, it would be nice to see a complete transcription of the recollection.  Maybe it fits in the "other" category.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Bryan,

No,

I would not agree that the top photo is pre-clearing and pre construction.

Your caveat, "on this part of the property" needs to be clearly defined.

Tillinghast told you that the general area from which the photo was taken was densely forested with underbrush so thick that the land was hidden to the mortal eye.

Like the photo from the ridge on # 6, obviously the land has been cleared.

In addition, the swamp had been dammed and converted to a lake in both photos, which would seem to indicate that that area had also been cleared.

I seem to recall that These photos were previously posted on another thread some time ago

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