[John Kavanaugh]

Is there a point in the perfect layup?  Is all course management based on not losing another ball?

[Brent Hutto]

The only scorekeeping I do in most of my rounds is our weekend-morning "points game". Bogey is worth one point so for me "course management" comes into play entirely to create the best chances for salvaging a bogey.

By which I mean, there's little or no course management involved if I hit a couple of good shots on a hole. Aim for the middle of the fairway, aim for the fat part of the green and then chip or putt and try to make a birdie or par. But if I'm not going to be able to reach the green I'm trying to lay up in a spot that keeps the ball between me and the hole and doesn't offer any great challenges for the next shot. So that I at least have a reasonable length putt for bogey and a point.

That does have the side effect of usually avoiding lost balls. But it works the other way, too. Long Par 5 with water in front of the green...

1) Tee shot into the woods.
2) Chip out sideways.
3) Mishit third shot.
4) Bad fourth shot still leaves me 175 to the hole with a 160 yard carry over the pond.

At that point, the strategy for "avoiding a lost ball" is to lay up to the 100 yard marker and wedge it on with my sixth shot. But since six is the only score that matters I always pull out a fairway wood and try to get the ball up around the green somewhere. Half the time it works, half the time I lose a ball. But the lost ball "costs" the same as a layup so that's not good course management for that game.

[jeffwarne]

Well, if you don't keep score , it gives you multiple opportunities to lay up to the perfect yardage

[John Kavanaugh]

If you don't embrace failure you run from success.

[Tim Nugent]

John, keep score in what manner?  I'm not being flippent.  Many times the extent of my score keeping is whether I execute the shot I envisioned. I examine my options and choose a strategy then try to hit the shot that is needed.  If I succeed, Yeah!, If I fail Boo!  The total number at the end of the round, not real important to me. I'd rather win the battles then the war.

[John Kavanaugh]

One of the things that I hate about knowing my score is that it will make me change my strategy on the closing holes.  I would say that 80% of the time I do not know how many over I am after 15 holes.  But damn those few times I am at our under par I can't get it out of my head.

I would like to know how people that don't keep score handle the first tee shot of the day.  In know that I play the first hole at Victoria differently when it comes in the middle of the round because of a shot gun start.  I just never want to start my day with a lost ball.

I think if I didn't keep score it would be like playing in a scramble.  That might just be enough to give up the game.

[John Kavanaugh]

John, keep score in what manner?  I'm not being flippent.  Many times the extent of my score keeping is whether I execute the shot I envisioned. I examine my options and choose a strategy then try to hit the shot that is needed.  If I succeed, Yeah!, If I fail Boo!  The total number at the end of the round, not real important to me. I'd rather win the battles then the war.

Tim, my total at the end of the round isn't important to me either unless I can brag about it.  It get an extra level of satisfaction from an extended period of excellence over a spurt of greatness.

[George Pazin]

John, I think you were on the right track on the other thread. Just about everyone who says he doesn't keep score, does do so in some manner, at least. I think when people say it, they simply mean they aren't totaling their score after each hole and obsessively counting every stroke (and in particular, every penalty stroke).

Other times, someone who doesn't "keep score" will simply look at each individual shot as a challenge in itself, and plan accordingly. As David alludes, it's almost more like practice than play.

[SL_Solow]

John;  You are right on this one.  Strategy on a hole requires each player to evaluate their respective strengths and weaknesses before each shot in order to determine the best alternative to obtain the lowest score on the hole while avoiding the risk of a disaster.  After attempting to execute the strategy, they evaluate the next shot with the same objective modified only by the position of the ball after the previous shot.  Each player must weigh the risk versus the reward on each shot based on their own ability.  If one forgets the score, then one effectively eliminates the "risk" component for there is no penalty associated with taking an unreasonable risk.  Hence your analogy to a scramble is apt.  The real shame is that those who play this way really miss the point of strategic architecture.  The best holes make the decision making difficult by creating a real choice where a significant risk is balanced by a high reward and a safer alternative is available.  If the downside is ignored, then the whole"point" of the exercise is destroyed and the game becomes as much a contest of execution as any penal course.  It is the decision making that separates the truly interesting course and if the reason for those decisons is removed, the strategic element becomes irrelevant.

[Tim Nugent]

I would like to know how people that don't keep score handle the first tee shot of the day.  In know that I play the first hole at Victoria differently when it comes in the middle of the round because of a shot gun start.  I just never want to start my day with a lost ball.

John, probably the same thought as 99.9%  with half not wanting to lose a ball and the other half not wanting to embarrass themselves.  It seems that 1st shot sets the tone for the rest of the round.  If you start off scrambling from the rough, you can pretty much figure a day of military.  If you strip one, then you get that nice iron shot to follow and you confidence just goes up. "See a good shot, hit a good shot! See a bad shot, hit a bad shot!"

[John Kavanaugh]

John, I think you were on the right track on the other thread. Just about everyone who says he doesn't keep score, does do so in some manner, at least. I think when people say it, they simply mean they aren't totaling their score after each hole and obsessively counting every stroke (and in particular, every penalty stroke).

Other times, someone who doesn't "keep score" will simply look at each individual shot as a challenge in itself, and plan accordingly. As David alludes, it's almost more like practice than play.

George,

I think you can make an X and still keep score.  Just this past weekend my opponent hit two balls out and I picked up after my drive on a par five.  He gave me an albatross and we went to the next hole.  Also one of the beauties of cart ball.  This occurred on the third hole so we declared the forth a tie and drove past some pesky walkers directly to the fifth tee.  I guess I had done well standing on the fifth tee and having only hit the ball eight times.

[John Kavanaugh]

John;  You are right on this one.  Strategy on a hole requires each player to evaluate their respective strengths and weaknesses before each shot in order to determine the best alternative to obtain the lowest score on the hole while avoiding the risk of a disaster.  After attempting to execute the strategy, theyu evaluate the next shot with the same objective modified only by the position of the ball after the previous shot.  Each player must weigh the risk versus the reward on each shot based on their own ability.  If one forgets the score, then one effectively eliminates the "risk" component for there is no penalty associated with taking an unreasonable risk.  Hence your analogy to a scramble is apt.  The real shame is that those who play this way really miss the point of strategic architecture.  The best holes make the decision making difficult by creating a real choice where a significant risk is balanced by a high reward and a safer alternative is available.  If the downside is ignored, then the whole"point" of the exercise is destroyed and the game becomes as much a contest of execution as any penal course.  It is the decision making that separates the truly interesting couse and if the reason for those decisons is removed, the strategic element becomes irrelevant.

Shelly,  Happy Holidays!!!  Thank you for this early gift.

[Eric Smith]

Is there a point in the perfect layup?  Is all course management based on not losing another ball?

JK: It's all just 'bust 2 wood' isn't it? I know, I'm sick of my game too. Just wait til next year - I'm fixing everything.

[John Kavanaugh]

Is there a point in the perfect layup?  Is all course management based on not losing another ball?

JK: It's all just 'bust 2 wood' isn't it? I know, I'm sick of my game too. Just wait til next year - I'm fixing everything.

We all have our crutches.  Now go buy some grown up clubs.

[BCrosby]

"The best holes make the decision making difficult by creating a real choice where a significant risk is balanced by a high reward and a safer alternative is available.  If the downside is ignored, then the whole"point" of the exercise is destroyed and the game becomes as much a contest of execution as any penal course.  It is the decision making that separates the truly interesting couse and if the reason for those decisons is removed, the strategic element becomes irrelevant." Shelly(?) Solow

Exactly so.

Bob

[Mark Saltzman]

John, I think you were on the right track on the other thread. Just about everyone who says he doesn't keep score, does do so in some manner, at least. I think when people say it, they simply mean they aren't totaling their score after each hole.

George,

This is well said and describes me. I don't usually write my scores down. I know approximately how I'm doing and will work out my score at the end of the round -- though, what I shot really makes no difference to anyone but me.

Up until about two years ago, score was the ONLY thing that mattered to me. Make double on the first I may as well go home cuz I'm going to be in a bad mood all day. I'm happy to say that will no longer ruin my day. A bad score is just a bad score -- who cares? Try to do better tomorrow.

Now, I still don't have so much fun when I'm striking the ball really poorly -- when you play a whole round without executing a single shot, it's really frustrating. But, if Im playing half-assed and throw in a few doubles (and hence will shoot a bad number), it doesn't really bother me.

[DMoriarty]

Depends upon what you mean by "keep score." As a few have said above, most who lament keeping score are thinking  of medal score for the round.  I'll bet these same golfers still stand on each tee intending to try for a low score on that particular hole, even when not in a match.

So in this sense, who doesn't keep score?

[John Kavanaugh]

Mark,

You need to find a way out of that buffet line.

[Mark_Rowlinson]

Most of the golf I play these days is social - usually matchplay. It may be foursomes, greensomes, or some other format, or very likely 9 holes on a Sunday afternoon with my wife. If the course is quiet we may even play a Safari from 1st tee to 8th green and so on. Here in the UK you are not obliged to put your score in the computer every time you play, but you have to play in a minimum number of qualifying competitions (medal or Stableford) per year in order to retain an active handicap.

There is quite a long walk from our 17th green to the 18th medal tee. Very often we'll both play from the ladies' tee just for companionship.

My sons, who hit the ball prodigious distances, rarely try to keep a medal score except during an official competition. Instead, they set themselves all sorts of challenges such as playing a 140-yard drop-shot par 3 with a 3-iron or attempting to drive a 320-yard hole, all carry. If they fail they are no worse off other than they might lose a ball. A lot of it involves do-or-die shots over trees or out-of-bounds on dog-legs taking direct lines to the green. They'll also play a hole using a short iron off the tee followed by a long fairway wood or driver to the green - just for the fun of it.

[Anthony Gray]

Is there a point in the perfect layup?  Is all course management based on not losing another ball?

  Yet again proof that higher handicappers have more fun. The thrill of the lost ball and risk reward experienced with every swing.

 Anthony

[Jeff_Brauer]

Maybe they play for the cart path side of the fw, either to speed play or get closer to the cart girl.....I mean, there is a little strategy to everything, no?

[JR Potts]

John, keep score in what manner?  I'm not being flippent.  Many times the extent of my score keeping is whether I execute the shot I envisioned. I examine my options and choose a strategy then try to hit the shot that is needed.  If I succeed, Yeah!, If I fail Boo!  The total number at the end of the round, not real important to me. I'd rather win the battles then the war.

Tim, my total at the end of the round isn't important to me either unless I can brag about it.  It get an extra level of satisfaction from an extended period of excellence over a spurt of greatness.

Exactly - that's why playing strategic golf has very little interest - unless playing in a tournament where making a big number is a no-no.  Seems like strategic golf is the ultimate hedge.  Most guys I play with play golf for good stories, fun, competition and a lot of laughs...it's not much fun if we can't utilize feats of strength and overall dumb play....but I guess now that I am aging in the wrong direction, strategy may begin to impart a little more importance and consideration.

But...if you're not keeping score, who cares?

[John Kavanaugh]

You'd have to be either a great golfer or Ghandi to shoot a round in the 60's and not want to know it. Why deny yourself that pleasure?

[George Pazin]

I doubt those who say they don't keep score shoot in the 60s. Or 70s, for that matter. I'd guess it's either guys who used to shoot in the 70s and now shoot in the 90s, or guys who struggle to break 100 and are just looking for the occasional heroic shot.

When I mentioned totaling earlier, I should have probably said subtotaling. I didn't mean adding up your score for one hole, I meant keeping a running total (27, 33, 38, 41, etc). I know what I score on each hole, and generally try to minimize it, save the occasional silly shot, but I often don't total them up at the end of the round.

Though I surely would if it were going to be in the 70s...

[Tim Martin]

If you don't embrace failure you run from success.

Ty Webb?

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