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Mike Hendren

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Architectural Evolution - Someone Explain To Me ...
« on: December 16, 2011, 12:05:33 PM »
How this:



evolved from this:



just to borrow a couple of recent photographs from other threads.

I don't buy the "Big World" theory of golf course architecture.  Like my Dad always said, "It doesn't really take all kinds to make a world - we just happen to have all kinds."

Bogey
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Architectural Evolution - Someone Explain To Me ...
« Reply #1 on: December 16, 2011, 12:09:43 PM »
Bogey,

Are you sure that 1st pic evolved from the 2nd pic?

Maybe it evolved from this..



Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Architectural Evolution - Someone Explain To Me ...
« Reply #2 on: December 16, 2011, 12:10:50 PM »
Bogey,

You should understand that one. If you give someone too much money, then there is a tendency to go to excess.
Isn't your life's work to prevent this?

Double Bogey
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Architectural Evolution - Someone Explain To Me ...
« Reply #3 on: December 16, 2011, 12:15:48 PM »
Bogey,

Are you sure that 1st pic evolved from the 2nd pic?

Maybe it evolved from this..







kalen,
With all due respect to you and the Good Doctor,

That looks woefully overdone as well.
......particularly on such a naturally great site already
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Joel_Stewart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Architectural Evolution - Someone Explain To Me ...
« Reply #4 on: December 16, 2011, 12:31:28 PM »
It's not a fair question.

How did this,


evolve to this?

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Architectural Evolution - Someone Explain To Me ...
« Reply #5 on: December 16, 2011, 12:49:19 PM »
Bogey,

Are you sure that 1st pic evolved from the 2nd pic?

Maybe it evolved from this..







kalen,
With all due respect to you and the Good Doctor,

That looks woefully overdone as well.
......particularly on such a naturally great site already

Jeff,

How dare you question the Good Doctor!!  ;D

In pictures I would agree it looks a bit overdone...but in person...its nothing short of fantastic!

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Architectural Evolution - Someone Explain To Me ...
« Reply #6 on: December 16, 2011, 01:14:24 PM »
To be fair, I don't think the CPC pic is representative of what Dr Mac wanted or would have approved of.  I think he envisioned a much more natural sandy area(s) akin to what existed prior to the course.  Unfortunately (and some may disagree), its very difficult to have untrapped sand blowing around the course as it doesn't do the turf any good.  So what we end up with is a sanitized, but I believe unavoidable, version of Dr Mac's vision.  Unfortunately, that sort of bunkering does give a green light to later archies and even to Dr Mac himself -  see Pasatiempo! 

Bogey, in essence, I think we can attribute your 1st photo to a whole host of archies working in the States - from the Golden Age to now.  Once the US became the centre for golf, its ideas and vision of the game from playing to designing to maintaining became what golf was about.  We talk about the economy perhaps doing its share to slash the excesses of golf, but what really needs to happen is for a new vision to be created accepted.  Given that we have had two generations of American travelers heading to GB&I and returning home with stories of awe - yet nothing changed on their courses and the subsequent courses built - I am not optimistic.  Even in this so-called age of Renaissance, we are applauding courses which cost $100, £200 even $300 a round.  Nobody has yet taken the bulls by the horn and declared war on excess - why - because in general golfers like excess.  The new vision has to be one of lean and mean, but I am not seeing that promoted except in a lip service manner.   

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Peter Pallotta

Re: Architectural Evolution - Someone Explain To Me ...
« Reply #7 on: December 16, 2011, 01:31:26 PM »
Man can't seem to leave well enough alone. It's not enough that he leaves his fingerprints all over nature, he wants to leave his bootprints and machine prints too, and all his identification cards, and his half-baked philosophies stamped on all that he touches -- and if there's no good/justifiable reason to make such an ego-driven mess of things, he'll just make one up, and then he'll add insult to injury by promoting that reasoning in as many articles and books as he can, so as to further promote himself and maybe even get a good argument going.  I'm starting to think that Desmond Muirhead was actually a brilliant satirist, casting an ironic light on the decay and decadence of his profession.  
That's a great and wise line your dad had: "It doesn't really take all kinds to make a world - we just happen to have all kinds."  Similarly, it's not that all bunkers lack imagination, it just happens that there's not a lot of true imagination at work in the world.  Copying the shape of clouds isn't imagination, it's what those without true imagination have to resort to, and then go on and market to the masses.  To borrow some lines from someone I'm almost sure has never been quoted on gca.com before:  "l say, and l say it again, you been had! You been took. You been hoodwinked. Bamboozled. Led astray! Run amuck. You know, some people call this hate-teaching. This isn't hate-teaching. This is love-teaching. l wouldn't tell you this if l didn't love you. l wouldn't stick my neck out for you if l didn't love you."

Peter

« Last Edit: December 16, 2011, 01:50:12 PM by PPallotta »

Lester George

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Architectural Evolution - Someone Explain To Me ...
« Reply #8 on: December 16, 2011, 04:56:50 PM »
Bogey,

As soon as there was a "second" architect, the first architect had to be outdone!  Especially once we started "rankings"!

Lester

paul cowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Architectural Evolution - Someone Explain To Me ...
« Reply #9 on: December 17, 2011, 12:11:33 AM »
Peter....who might the borrowed lines belong to? If you don't mind.Thanks!
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

David Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Architectural Evolution - Someone Explain To Me ...
« Reply #10 on: December 17, 2011, 01:14:56 AM »
I think its more like this:



evolved from this:



I'm not defending Weiskopf's work at Kukuiula because I've never seen it and by and large I haven't been crazy about the work that I have seen of Weiskopf.

However,  I would say that from Royal Ashdown Forest Golf Club to Kukuiula Golf Course there have been a number of branches spring up on the evolutionary tree of golf architecture.  Some of them lead to courses like Barnbougle and Friar's Head, some of them lead to TPC@Sawgrass and Muirfield Village and many others lead to dead ends or poor golf courses.  If the last 20 years of golf architecture had not occurred I would more likely to bemoan where golf course architecture has evolved.

« Last Edit: December 17, 2011, 01:55:11 AM by David Kelly »
"Whatever in creation exists without my knowledge exists without my consent." - Judge Holden, Blood Meridian.

paul cowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Architectural Evolution - Someone Explain To Me ...
« Reply #11 on: December 17, 2011, 01:33:13 AM »
David...what are you trying to say?
.
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

David Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Architectural Evolution - Someone Explain To Me ...
« Reply #12 on: December 17, 2011, 01:54:34 AM »
David...what are you trying to say?
.
Well just what I wrote which is that the evolution of golf architecture is not a straight line from Royal Ashdown directly to Kukuiula Golf Course.
"Whatever in creation exists without my knowledge exists without my consent." - Judge Holden, Blood Meridian.

Peter Pallotta

Re: Architectural Evolution - Someone Explain To Me ...
« Reply #13 on: December 17, 2011, 09:57:11 AM »
David makes a good point - parallel streams of evolution.

Paul - that was, ahem, Malcolm X. 

Peter

Jaeger Kovich

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Architectural Evolution - Someone Explain To Me ...
« Reply #14 on: December 17, 2011, 01:15:00 PM »
Bogey,

As soon as there was a "second" architect, the first architect had to be outdone!  Especially once we started "rankings"!

Lester

I think this is pretty much the essence of it. As with most things, especially here in America, many people think that the more money you spend on something, the better it will be.

Its the "bigger is better" theory. However, I would say that developers share the blame with architects in this case.

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Architectural Evolution - Someone Explain To Me ...
« Reply #15 on: December 19, 2011, 11:15:26 AM »
Bogey,

As soon as there was a "second" architect, the first architect had to be outdone!  Especially once we started "rankings"!

Lester

The pastor at the church we attended yesterday spoke on humility (Mark 10:35-45), spending much of his time on the related sins of pride, ego, selfishness, self-centeredness.  To illustrate, he told a story of a group of teenagers he was leading on a mission trip to Mexico and how he pleaded with them repeatedly about the need to be at the bus by 6:30 a.m. for a prompt 7:00 departure.  Of course, four kids showed up at 7:15, and adding insult to injury, each was toting a McDonalds sack.  These kids being late and putting themselves above all others was one of several examples used as counterpoints to the Lord's simple act of humility- washing the feet of his disciples.

What does this all have to do with the subject?  Has Duran gone Tebow on the site?

I suggest that even without the rankings, by the inescapable requirements of their very nature, architects would seek to differentiate and surpass the work of their colleagues (and competitors).  Unlike the pastor as well as any number of believers in the various forms of collectivism, I think that Original Sin and selfishness, greed, property, possessiveness, etc. are confused with the survival instinct wired into all of us, and without which progress and advancement are impossible.

To answer Bogey, golf and its architecture have evolved as they have because golfers place value in the various forms and the industry, sometimes responding, at other times leading, has evolved to meet their needs.  The pictorial examples provided are of two very different physical environments.  They perhaps represent very distinct expressions even within their specific environs.  There are several more (parkland, desert, prairie) that should reflect different styles and presentations.

Bogey’s comment on the “golf is a big world” theory reminds me of the Tennessean who when asked which type of music he enjoys, responded that he likes both kinds, country and western.  Not living on a sand belt along an ocean, I have to make do with the evolved form of gca on inferior sites and be thankful.

By the way, the aforementioned pastor spoke for an hour combined, and though he acknowledged that the service was running late into the times for other planned activities, I doubt that he ever made any connection to his previous admonitions and offered no apologies.  Even those who are very sensitive to the downsides of our human nature are not immune to it.  And, I suspect, like those of us who like to uphold our preferences above those of others, probably have more comfortable ways of rationalizing and justifying them.      
« Last Edit: December 19, 2011, 11:22:07 AM by Lou_Duran »

Tim Nugent

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Architectural Evolution - Someone Explain To Me ...
« Reply #16 on: December 19, 2011, 11:54:23 AM »
Lou, this sounds a bit like "if one is guilty, then they all must be guilty" logic.  I think you would be surprised to find that there are architects who design what they do because they WANT to or think it is in the best interest of their client, not because it is what is demanded of them.  Granted, there are many others who just play it safe and run with the herd.
Coasting is a downhill process

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Architectural Evolution - Someone Explain To Me ...
« Reply #17 on: December 19, 2011, 01:02:10 PM »
Tim,

I did not mean to imply anything about guilt through association, and certainly not regarding group-think (running with the herd).  In response to Lester, I am saying that we are by nature competitive and self-aborbed to varying degrees, which would argue for the opposite, that we would strive to stand-out, to differentiate.

Within the confines of having to make a living, I suspect many in your profession do as you say- what "they want to or think it is in the best interest of their client".  I would mostly disagree that it is "not because it is what is demanded of them", at least during more normal times when the work is not plentiful relative to the number able and ready to do it.  I've been around enough architects to have heard common complaints regarding subordinating at least part of their vision to meet those of the client as dictated by the site, budget, regulatory constraints, and/or project objectives.

During the hey day, there were stories of architects passing on projects due to a variety of issues including incompatible client demands.  Is that very true today?

Peter Pallotta

Re: Architectural Evolution - Someone Explain To Me ...
« Reply #18 on: December 19, 2011, 02:35:19 PM »
Lou, Tim - your exchange made me think of a jazz analogy.  I'd suggest that the 'evolution' from what Louis Armstrong played in the 1920s to what Charlie Parker played in the 1950s was a natural and even necessary one, i.e. the harmonies and melodic lines/licks of 1950s bop already existed/were inherent in the harmonies and lines of 1920s jazz, waiting there to be discovered and made manifest.  Thus, the human desire to excel/outshine/create something new that Lou notes in his post worked, in jazz's case, more to enhance the art-craft rather than to alter it.  I'm not sure I see the same kind of relationship, the same kind of "evolution' in gca or in the photos that began this thread -- and by that I mean just that, I'm not sure.  Perhaps it is indeed the same kind of evolution, but if so I don't have the eyes to see it.

Peter
« Last Edit: December 19, 2011, 02:37:03 PM by PPallotta »

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Architectural Evolution - Someone Explain To Me ...
« Reply #19 on: December 19, 2011, 03:18:06 PM »
Michael,

Read Cornish and Whitten or Hurdzan.  Seriously, the answer lies in technology both in golf equipement and maintenance equipment, not the egos of owners and architects, at least for the most part.  IMHO, it also evolved as TV evolved, forcing everything to be more visual in a visual based society.

For that matter, on individual courses there is a difference.  The top photo is of a resort that has to draw guests from thousands of miles for a once a year expenditure.  The second picture is a local club, where by nature of paying for perhaps 100 rounds a year, less expensive is more desireable if not an outright necessity.

The big world does exist!
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Architectural Evolution - Someone Explain To Me ...
« Reply #20 on: December 19, 2011, 03:31:35 PM »
Michael,

Read Cornish and Whitten or Hurdzan.  Seriously, the answer lies in technology both in golf equipement and maintenance equipment, not the egos of owners and architects, at least for the most part.  IMHO, it also evolved as TV evolved, forcing everything to be more visual in a visual based society.

For that matter, on individual courses there is a difference.  The top photo is of a resort that has to draw guests from thousands of miles for a once a year expenditure.  The second picture is a local club, where by nature of paying for perhaps 100 rounds a year, less expensive is more desireable if not an outright necessity.

The big world does exist!

Very valid points.
I've read much of their work, and played some of  their courses.

Which course would you rather play for your "once a year expenditure"?
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

paul cowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Architectural Evolution - Someone Explain To Me ...
« Reply #21 on: December 19, 2011, 08:35:21 PM »
David...what are you trying to say?
.
Well just what I wrote which is that the evolution of golf architecture is not a straight line from Royal Ashdown directly to Kukuiula Golf Course.

Good point David...my bad.

Paul



paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca