[Mike_Young]

Mike
As to the Accord vs. Lamborghini - I think you are asking for a preference.
Which was a greater business is a completely different question.

It has always been my ideal to provide a Lamborghini for the price of an Accord (now an Escort).
Cheers

Nope.  I wasn't asking for a preference.  I was asking which was better for the automobile drivers of the world.

Neither is better.  They both serve a completely different market.  Better in what sense?  For society?  For driving pleasure? For picking up chicks? For fuel economy? The military/oil complex? Stockholders?

Jud,
I'm not arguing any of that.
I'm sure Mac would like to have nothing but 500 millon dollar clients in the ideal situation.  (and he may) And I'm sure he is capable of handling that client but I would bet that realism says he deals with many more smaller ones.
Go back and read what TD was saying earlier.  We need more golf courses where people can play the game. I just saw where rounds were down like another 8.6 percent across the board this year.  You got to nurture the bigger market for golf to make it.  I bet one of the big obstacles in china will be that people can't learn the game of the "championship" courses being built. 
Just take housing as an example.  Across America the average subdivision home has never seen an architect.  A builder built it.  Golf course across America are the same.  The old saying is " sell to the masses to live with the classes"

[Jud_T]

Mike,

I don't disagree.  Brad Klein has a good editorial on the subject in the recent Golfweek issue.  While penal championship tracks and the male golf retreat are fine and dandy, local clubs need to go all-in on getting mom and the kids out to the course as creatively, enjoyably and economically as possible IMO.  Not only is the gig up on real estate, but the expense account business golfer is pretty hard to come by these days as well. 

[Mike Nuzzo]

Mike
I find a big difference between Ian estimating a % drop and you calling the design profession B.S.
Are you saying Ian is full of BS?
Cheers

[Mike_Young]

Mike
I find a big difference between Ian estimating a % drop and you calling the design profession B.S.
Are you saying Ian is full of BS?
Cheers

Where do you come up with this stuff?  Where did I say Ian was full of BS?
Yes, I am calling the design "profession" BS.  It has been for a while.  And I can say that because I been doing for almost 30 years and knew it.  I've watched guys say they "designed" a golf course with 50 pages of plans.  Blame it on environmental and govt specs.  Let the engineers do that..they got to stamp it anyway.  And now you can find 50 guys that will put sketches into plans on their autocad at their kitchen table.  Might even do you a "fly thru 3D.  But he guy building the golf course could give a damn.  To use the old Larry the Cable Guy phrase.  "Git er done" is where it's going.  I don't know what the new Phrase will be.  Michelangelo built statues he didn't design them.  Ed Malthrop turned bowls and any design happened as he was turning them.  Pete Dye is the man and the model for the future.  He's a golf course maker.
Oh...and thinking more about it...Ian is full of BS

[Jeff_Brauer]

Mike,

No doubt the profession will be going to the value side over the next decade or so, and design build to hide or reduce the architects fees are going to be a large part of that.

Somehow, the internet is going to be part of that, as in I expect to see an "internet architect" who provides basic green plans much like a builder will provide basic floor plans on line.  There will be the appropriate legal disclaimers that the owner or its builder is responsible for fitting it to the site, etc.  For an extra fee, there may even be an hour of phone consultation before picking plan no. 554, flipping it, downsizing the green by 2%, etc.  The architect could probably get a pretty good idea of the  site from Google Street Level view, etc.

You wanna go partners on it?

[JMEvensky]

Somehow, the internet is going to be part of that, as in I expect to see an "internet architect" who provides basic green plans much like a builder will provide basic floor plans on line.  There will be the appropriate legal disclaimers that the owner or its builder is responsible for fitting it to the site, etc.  For an extra fee, there may even be an hour of phone consultation before picking plan no. 554, flipping it, downsizing the green by 2%, etc.  The architect could probably get a pretty good idea of the  site from Google Street Level view, etc.

You wanna go partners on it?

Donald Ross--with today's technology?

Great discussion--thanks to those who've contributed.

[Kris Shreiner]

Ian & friends,

Some very insightful points men. There is no question that a leaner, more resource efficient presentation is the way forward, REGARDLESS of target niche. Those that have the vision and progressive thinking will survive in the long run. The reworking of marginal course designs, on solid sites, seems like a huge avenue of opportunity as things unfold and acquisition moves are made going forward.

I think that bodes well for those that can deliver on their financials and  produce a "valued" quality golf experience. Even a high end golf project doesn't need to run with the excessive budgets of the past. There is ample evidence of golf design groups executing on these principles . I hope the Olympic course selection gang has the constitution to pick based on ALL the elements involved with this significant project, rather than just award a firm because they were swept up by the celeberity/ego-fest.

Cheers and happy holidays to all,

Kris

[Mike_Young]

Mike,

No doubt the profession will be going to the value side over the next decade or so, and design build to hide or reduce the architects fees are going to be a large part of that.

Somehow, the internet is going to be part of that, as in I expect to see an "internet architect" who provides basic green plans much like a builder will provide basic floor plans on line.  There will be the appropriate legal disclaimers that the owner or its builder is responsible for fitting it to the site, etc.  For an extra fee, there may even be an hour of phone consultation before picking plan no. 554, flipping it, downsizing the green by 2%, etc.  The architect could probably get a pretty good idea of the  site from Google Street Level view, etc.

You wanna go partners on it?

Jeff,
I was in Dallas for four days last week and was going to find you.  I had gone out for a funeral and thought I would have time to catch you but missed.  Anyway, how u durin?
Partners???  Have you ever watched the TV show Suits?  Two "lawyers".  One has the credentials and the Harvard degree and the other one has the knowledge but he didn't go to law school; he forgot.  And here you are the esteemed past President of a Golf Architecture Society and me a complete renegade.  I would have your ass in more trouble in two hours than you could get out of in five years.  I like you too much to do that to you.  So we better not do the partner thing.  Merry Christmas and Happy New Year.

[Mike Nuzzo]

Mike
I find a big difference between Ian estimating a % drop and you calling the design profession B.S.
Are you saying Ian is full of BS?
Cheers

Where do you come up with this stuff?  Where did I say Ian was full of BS?

That is why I was asking you a question?
I was still trying to figure what you call yourself (or Ian) and what is your definition of a golf course designer.

If you're definition of golf course designer is a dude that earns his living by creating plans - I can agree with your perspective.
I used to call you a golf course designer - from now on I'll call you a golf course maker - as long as you call me that too.
Not an internet golf course maker though...

Cheers

Next time you're in Texas let me know and we can plan for some sparring...

On a serious note, sorry for your loss.
Peace

[Jeff_Brauer]

Mike,

Sorry to hear you were in DFW on sad business and also sorry to have missed you.  About as deep as I thought out that idea was that you and I both use Vectorworks, so our plan files should be compatico!

Anyway, not sure of the answer, but your housebuilder analogy is apt.  If I as a designer wouldn't pay a building architect, I can see why there would be less desire to pay a gca.  Design has been devalued to a commodity in many ways over the years anyway.  Therefore, I see most design-build being led more by contractors than architects. 

I guess LUI, Wadsworth, Aspen, et al will now equate to Pulte, DR Horton, Grand Homes, etc?  Each will try to brand themsleves as the upper end, value, flexible, production?

[Mike Nuzzo]

Mike
Cool that you don't carry any Titleist products
You reminded me of this video
He refused to carry Pepsi
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gPbh6Ru7VVM
It is worth watching

My favorite part is when he talks about his favorite cola.
Cheers

[Ian Andrew]

Oh...and thinking more about it...Ian is full of BS

Hard to argue with the truth.

[Mike_Young]

That is why I was asking you a question?
I was still trying to figure what you call yourself (or Ian) and what is your definition of a golf course designer.

If you're definition of golf course designer is a dude that earns his living by creating plans - I can agree with your perspective.
I used to call you a golf course designer - from now on I'll call you a golf course maker - as long as you call me that too.
Not an internet golf course maker though...

Cheers

Next time you're in Texas let me know and we can plan for some sparring...

On a serious note, sorry for your loss.
Peace
[/quote]

Mike,
Thanks for the condolences.
As for what I call myself...Hell if I know.  I know that I got 42 golf courses in the ground at different places with my name on them.  I could care less if the call me architect, builder, designer or whatever.  That just happens to be what I wanted to do in the golf business.  Now I know that will not be there so we have purchased a couple and are operating others.  I have never been hung up on the glitter ssociated with the golf design business.  As you know there are few people that call themselves golf architects because they would like to one day do a course.  They don't have one in the ground but they still call themselves golf architect.  So I guess they are.  But using that analogy I guess I could be called a presidential candidate, life coach, a fitness instructor, a TV minister, a race car driver, a golf instructor, a diet guru.  And the list goes on.  Now I just say I am in the golf business and when my new website hits next month it will explain in better terms what I do.

I watched your video...
This is what people need to be watching now.
Coffee is for closers  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y-AXTx4PcKI    

Jeff,
THanks also for the condolences.
It's a good thing I was thinking that partnership deal thru for you .
You have read my brain....Landscapes Unlimited and the others will be the DR Hortons, Pultes and Rylands.  And they should be. They have the equipment and can build the roads as well as the course and whatever is needed.  They will throw some scraps.  Guys like us have been around long enough to be ok.  But it will be a long dry spell with no one being taught the business for a while and if it ever comes back, and I'm not sure it will.  The practitioners will be starting again for the most part.  IMHO.

[Ian Andrew]

Golf has now become a commodity and is marketed as such by various corporations and professional organizations.  But golf is a deregulated business, and has no true qualifications other than experience and ability.  Inflating the golf world over the past twenty years is the issue at hand.  It's the self-licking ice cream cone.  Once the infrastructure of the "complex" sprang up around golf, it was doomed.  It collapsed under it's own weight.

I found this post very insightful on what ails golf.


What has come with this is the desire to always have the best of everything, the best service, the best maintenance, the best irrigation system, the biggest name designer, the best marketing, etc.

All of this drives up the cost and the weight of all those costs has stopped the growth of the game.

[jeffwarne]

Golf has now become a commodity and is marketed as such by various corporations and professional organizations.  But golf is a deregulated business, and has no true qualifications other than experience and ability.  Inflating the golf world over the past twenty years is the issue at hand.  It's the self-licking ice cream cone.  Once the infrastructure of the "complex" sprang up around golf, it was doomed.  It collapsed under it's own weight.

I found this post very insightful on what ails golf.


What has come with this is the desire to always have the best of everything, the best service, the best maintenance, the best irrigation system, the biggest name designer, the best marketing, etc.

What's the old quote about a certain town where "all the kids are above average"?

ironically, the "best" experience often occurs when no one is striving for all of the above

[Mike_Young]

Golf has now become a commodity and is marketed as such by various corporations and professional organizations.  But golf is a deregulated business, and has no true qualifications other than experience and ability.  Inflating the golf world over the past twenty years is the issue at hand.  It's the self-licking ice cream cone.  Once the infrastructure of the "complex" sprang up around golf, it was doomed.  It collapsed under it's own weight.

I found this post very insightful on what ails golf.


What has come with this is the desire to always have the best of everything, the best service, the best maintenance, the best irrigation system, the biggest name designer, the best marketing, etc.

All of this drives up the cost and the weight of all those costs has stopped the growth of the game.

Amen....

[Anthony Gray]

  Aren't more people leaving the game than picking it up now? When Tiger first became hot every one was picking up the sticks. What's going on now seems to be a correction of that trend. I think some believed that the growth would continue. The days of if you build it they will come may be over for good.

  Anthony

[Lester George]

Mike Young,

So how many courses do you need to have in the ground to call yourself a golf course             (designer, architect, creator, builder)? You fill in the blank. 

I often find my thinking aligning with yours, but that statement intrigues me because I believe you are on to something.

Lester

[George Pazin]

Just guessing for Mike, but he seems to be saying you can call yourself anything, but that doesn't make it so...

[Tom_Doak]

The days of if you build it they will come may be over for good.

Anthony:

I'm not sure those days ever really existed.  We built a lot of courses, and people didn't come to most of them, except for Sand Hills and Bandon Dunes Resort and maybe Barnbougle.  Nearly all the rest of the courses built on that business model have struggled.  Then again, nearly all the courses built on other business models have struggled, too.

[paul cowley]

Mike...golf course maker sounds really right...ASGCM...I will nominate you as First President with Tom D as VP/Sec...no dues though, pay as you go.

As for me it's new business cards and my pickup going door to door, and I'm just fine with that.

Ben and Ian....especially good posts!

[Mac Plumart]

It is always  interesting to me to see people in my industry (portfolio management and financial analysis) go to work within the industries they cover.  For instance, Analyst X covers real estate investment trusts for Morgan Stanley.  Analyst X leaves Morgan Stanley to start his/her own real estate company.  They use all the knowledge, contacts, and experience within the industry to start a company within the industry.  Many times they are very successful.

Any of y'all ever thought of that?

Golf Course Architect Y finds that their home market is slow and instead of waiting for their next client to come on board, they decided to built their own golf course...own it...operate it...build it...maintain it.  

Do you guys think you could be successful at that?

[Grant Saunders]

I see maybe a return of the days of the Superintendent and Greens Committees handling the design and aspects of the build for any changes at their club.

Architect fees are expensive and with clubs looking to tighten up spending, I see this being an area where expenditure will no longer be directed.

There will always remain the need for reconstruction work on courses with agronomic issues and other factors such as realigning holes to limit balls hitting houses etc. It is going to be a hard sell to employ a consultant when budgets for this work are being limited.

I think with the information available today in terms of literature, television and the internet, it is much easier to research what makes for reasonable architecture. This coupled with a healthy dose of common sense will be able to achieve some fairly agreeable results that more than serve their purpose.

For many clubs built without the aid of a professional architect, it is a tough sell to convince people that where necessity and a can do attitude succeeded in the past that suddenly there exists the need to hire a name architect just to design one green.

[Jud_T]

As in most mature industries, the easy money is no longer there.  But there's always demand for guys who really add value.  What is perceived as value has simply changed.  Most don't like change.

[Tom_Doak]

Golf Course Architect Y finds that their home market is slow and instead of waiting for their next client to come on board, they decided to built their own golf course...own it...operate it...build it...maintain it.  

Do you guys think you could be successful at that?

Mac:

If I were a little older, I would buy High Pointe and fix it up and operate it.  It wouldn't be a cash cow, but I think it would do okay, provided I didn't have to pay a ransom for it.

Starting from scratch would be MUCH more difficult.  Most new projects out of the ground are in the $6 million to $10 million range, and not many golf course architects have that kind of spare change lying around.  [Corollary:  any architect who ever did have that much money, did not spend their money on developing a golf course!] 

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