[Adrian_Stiff]

Philippe........ lets just have 9 holes...more real estate??

[Tom_Doak]

Mike is spot on with the call it 68 put play it at 58 and a problem with building a course at 5600 yards is that its 5000 from the front. Kidology is a key part, give them a good time let them score low let them think they are playing the same as the pro's. That total yardage must have a six infront of it, but your not wrong (Phillipe) with the real bones of what your saying, your just not going to convert the masses.

Adrian:

Pete Dye said to me more than 25 years ago that the only way to make golf courses playable for the average guy was to make them 5800 yards long, but to lie on the scorecard and say it was at least 6200, otherwise they wouldn't play those tees.

However, the problem with building a course at 5600 yards is not that it's 5000 from the front ... it's that you don't need the front tees ... everyone can play it from right there, and the weaker players will have a better chance to compete, at that.

[PCCraig]

Changing the subject just a little:  I was with some guys yesterday that reminded me of our main issues with golf in the future.  The older guys play but as they quit the younger guys just aren't picking it up and this particular group blames it on the two earner household.  Which equates to shared weekend responsibilities.  So whatever we do it has to take less time to play and I mean a lot less time.  JMO

I'm that guy, I love the game, but do not play more than one week-end a year.
I don't blame anything or anyone, I would rather do things with my kids (that's my generation's view).

You don't need to attract the adult, you need to attract the kids.
The local Jr. B hockey team has done it perfectly, kids are given free tickets regularly at their practices.
My son and I go quite often, I pay full price by drinks and popcorn and they have two regular customers.

Golf needs to be more creative.

I'm beginning to think that free golf for kids is the only way... Green fees take priority and kids slot in around...

Free golf? My guess is that if a kid isn't interested in golf it doesn't matter how much it costs...he/she won't play. The course I worked at growing up ran a great program where for $300-400/year (probably higher now), juniors could play unlimited golf after 1pm. It wasn't "free," but since it was paid upfront juniors could go play as much or as often as they wanted, without going into their pockets each time.

[Adrian_Stiff]

Tom, I accept what you say re 5600 v 5000 and I agree 5600 is fine but the tees cant always be back, so 600sq yards f tees per hole really means 30 yards from backs to fronts..... so thats 540, but I do agree largely 5600 is a great number for most people. I think you said on another thread developers would never do it. I think developers are right in the case, being an architect and developer too I can see the problems, we have just built a little 5500 yarder to go with our other one. There is no doubt that a high percentage see the lack of length as a big minus. I do the bookings for both courses and The Stranahan currently only gets 1/7th the bookings of the big un... hopefully it will grow. Once I can get them out there I can win them over but its not an easy talk to get them out there. It does have some big fans though and at 3 hours for 18 holes and a bit cheaper it fits nicely for some pockets.

[Tom_Doak]

Adrian:

One of the only 5600-yard courses in the USA I know of which has been successful is the South course at Detroit Golf Club [it might be 5800 yards instead of 5600].  It is very popular with 80-90% of the members, though some cannot tear themselves away from the North course which is 1000 yards longer [and not bad architecturally, either].  If your new course is just as interesting as the longer one, it will eventually catch on.

[Ben Sims]

Prognsticating--and I am as guilty as anyone--about shorter courses and simpler maintenance and smaller clubhouses is all well and good.  How do we sell it?  As cynical as that might be, it's a concern.  

I've always been told that change happens incrementally and a hungry spirit must have stamina over many years to truly change what he sees as a wrong.  The financial difficulties of golf may be the catalyst, but who is the enactor?  The professional organizations and education outlets are making a mistake in many of their publications and conferences by trying to replicate the ideas of the past two decades with more efficient means.  The real challenge is changing the paradigm and proving that many of the ideas behind the golf explosion were flawed.

I'm as romantic about a 5600yd golf course with a more edgy and natural maintenance meld as anyone here.  But outside of a select few purists and dreamers, who is willing to accept that change and will the market support it?

[jeffwarne]

Prognsticating--and I am as guilty as anyone--about shorter courses and simpler maintenance and smaller clubhouses is all well and good.  How do we sell it?  As cynical as that might be, it's a concern.  

I've always been told that change happens incrementally and a hungry spirit must have stamina over many years to truly change what he sees as a wrong.  The financial difficulties of golf may be the catalyst, but who is the enactor?  The professional organizations and education outlets are making a mistake in many of their publications and conferences by trying to replicate the ideas of the past two decades with more efficient means.  The real challenge is changing the paradigm and proving that many of the ideas behind the golf explosion were flawed.

I'm as romantic about a 5600yd golf course with a more edgy and natural maintenance meld as anyone here.  But outside of a select few purists and dreamers, who is willing to accept that change and will the market support it?

Well if the shorter course fad did kick in,(and don't kid yourself, most everything in golf follows fad), you'd soon have 5200 yard courses, then 4800, then 4200, 3800.
because smaller is better right?
Who'd build the first driveable par 5, the aceable par 4 with a funnel pin area, the par three with a cup on the tee....etc., etc,

Then we could restore them all to 7000 yards

[Mac Plumart]

---side bar---

I'd love to hear Chris Cupit chime in on some of this stuff.  He's got experience and passion reagarding all these issues.

[Mike_Young]

Go out and measure the courses from the back of the back tee.  Put this in the scorecard.  Place all the back tees 10 yards forward from this measurement and you have shaved 180 yards. If you wish to measure the holes to the back of the greens then you can subtract another 180 yards by placing the pins in the middle.  And more if the pins are up front.   And work it from there. 
I don't know the answer at the moment but has ANGC played the Masters at the length they now advertise?  I don't think so.  I don't think they have ever gotten close to using all the length on hole #4 and probably a few others.

The problem I see with golf going forward and it is really only a problem for architects more so than anyone else;  courses have to be so simple and clean that people can learn to play them and can graduate from them after learning.  These courses have been built all over America by farmers and others and they don't need an architect to design them.  Oh you can argue he might save them here and there and he might give them a routing that is better....they don't care.  Triplexed greens with total of 5 bunkers on the course and learn to play. 
And Ian is right..let the kids play for free.  If they don't like the game the Dad is not going to be out there anyway; he will still be at soccer or whatever they wish to do.

[George Pazin]

Tobacco Road is very short by modern course standards. Anyone know how it is doing financially? Not specifics, just generally.

Always interesting to learn what Pete Dye thinks. I find tee selection very difficult on his courses. It's either 1) play tees which are frankly over my ability or 2) play tees where I have to hit 7 irons off the tee all day long. Of course, I've only played two and seen one other, so that's not a fair selection (where's Matt to rip me a new one?).

[Adrian_Stiff]

6544 so nearly 1000 yards longer than what we are talking about.

[George Pazin]

Very true, but:

1) it's a lot shorter than many modern US courses

2) that's from the tips - my recollection is 5 sets of tees, grouped primarily around 6000 yards. The day I played I didn't see many playing the tips, but that was only one day.

At any rate, I wasn't trying to draw a direct comparison to the proposed yardages, I was simply trying to gauge whether or not the relative shortness of TR has had an impact on its success.

[Mike_Clayton]

Phillipe,

We redid a course out of Melbourne that was 5600 yards and we shortened it but about 50 yards.
It has some tremendous holes, no bad ones and only the opening tee shot is a little odd.
It had interesting strategies, really fun greens and you have to think and hit good shots at the same time. So long as a course asks for that it will work for the majority. It is a pity more don't take it seriously because it is what the majority would have more fun playing.
My guess is that if you told the average player it was 6200 yards they would think it was and if they had no idea what the par was they might guess 69 at the end of the round when it is a stretch to call it 67 because the two par fives are around 460 yards.

[Michael Essig]

I love the idea of having short courses. One of the only reasons courses are so long is because the designers want the course to be DIFFICULT, but you can make any short course extremely hard through tough set-up and design.

[Mike_Clayton]

Golf Australia just released their top 100 list.Interestingly Healesville was ranked 53rd so that is some validation for a 5500 yard course.

[Ben Sims]

On the idea of short courses, I like to think of the golfer I know best.  I don't consider myself a short--or long--hitter, and at right around 5900-6100 yds, I hit driver out of necessity on 10 holes at Palmetto GC.  Since the course has four par three's, that means four par fours will require less than driver.  On those par 4's (#2, #15, #17, #18) my average score in relation to par is likely higher than many of the 10 driver holes. 

The idea that shorter courses aren't challenging is a myth.

[Philippe Binette]

Not to get the ball rolling too much...

but there's a famous club with 2 courses we all know that, only 8 years ago (before they lengthen one of those course to host a major championship in 2013)  had those length: 6450 and 5980

the club wasn't doing too bad...

[Bruce Katona]

I just read this thread.  I'm of the mind-set to be in the group who is paying $0.20 on the $1.00 to acquire well located courses in financial distress due to mismanagement, overspending, or aging membership.  The next 36-48 months will provide tremendous opportunites for those with a war chest to acquire golf assets at a price where revenues will exceed expenses, thus generating a positive return on the investment.

Earlier, someone opined a 4% return was not a bad return, but is that return worth the risk involved?  Probably not, but a return of 8-10%% (12.5%-10.0% CAP Rate) in today's investing environemnt just may attract investors.  Someone earleir also supplied a thumbnail pro-forma, with an asset generating free cash of $400,000/annum on $2,000,000 in revenue.  $400,000 of free cash to distribute each year to investors would make most of us very happy, even in the better times.

Great discussion.....keep it going.

[Adrian_Stiff]

Not to get the ball rolling too much...

but there's a famous club with 2 courses we all know that, only 8 years ago (before they lengthen one of those course to host a major championship in 2013)  had those length: 6450 and 5980

the club wasn't doing too bad...

But thats still not 5600 yards which you said was the magic number.... 6450 is probably the magic number if there is one.

[Philippe Binette]

I didn't say 5600 yards is the magic number... it would only get the job done for every day play... for a casual round after work or for a good time in the week end.

it probably doesn't matter, they are going to built a 7600 yards course for the olympics and people will think it's the way forward

[Adrian_Stiff]

I think the basis of what you and everyone here is saying is technically right, golf at sub 6000 yards is FUN. The unfortunate thing is people think they want to golf longer and get great pleasure hitting it as far as possible.

[George Pazin]

I think the basis of what you and everyone here is saying is technically right, golf at sub 6000 yards is FUN. The unfortunate thing is people think they want to golf longer and get great pleasure hitting it as far as possible.

You are giving them too much credit. What they don't want is for their friends to say, your home course is how long? You could have the greatest, most fun 6000 yard course and there would still be people dismissing it.

I say, let 'em. That's more fun courses for the rest of us.

[Bruce Katona]

I really like the idea of the 5,600-5,800 yard daily tee, with marking the scorecard with the yardage from the back of daily tee to a spot in the rear of the green.  The customer will never know the difference, they will enjoy the round more an most times have a better score.

That all rolls up into.........a repeat customer !!!

[John Kavanaugh]

You guys claim this to be a game of honor yet you want to build its future on a pile of deception. We've got to get the con artists on both sides of the counter out of the game. An honest product for a fair price. Sadly not even half of the members of this board could live with those terms.

[jeffwarne]

The future of golf will be much like the past.
In the 1920's the huge boom went bust and courses went fallow or stayed open by being ultra lean and mean.

Not every single person was meant to play golf every day for the rest of their life on high maintenance, huge clubhouse high end operations-yet we built for 10 years as if that were the case.
We'll end up somewhere like the 70's with maintainable, efficient operations, with some modern creativity and innovation thrown in for good measure.
Golf can't (and in my opinion shouldn't) grow at the pace that was expected, many courses will close(there are NLE's all over the place  from an earlier boom), life will go on.

You'll enjoy your company on the course more

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