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John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: I got a phone call last night--------------
« Reply #75 on: December 16, 2011, 04:40:21 PM »
The pain of being played the fool is far deeper during the lie than upon revelation.

Tony Weiler

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: I got a phone call last night--------------
« Reply #76 on: December 16, 2011, 04:44:31 PM »
The pain of being played the fool is far deeper during the lie than upon revelation.

John, how so? 

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: I got a phone call last night--------------
« Reply #77 on: December 16, 2011, 04:56:26 PM »
The pain of being played the fool is far deeper during the lie than upon revelation.

Boy am I screwed.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: I got a phone call last night--------------
« Reply #78 on: December 16, 2011, 05:03:46 PM »
I am not of the school that believes what you don't know won't hurt you.  I think we have all had our heart broken by someone who chose to play us for the fool when a clean break would have been less painful. 

Ken Fry

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: I got a phone call last night--------------
« Reply #79 on: December 17, 2011, 10:02:26 AM »
Wow guys.  A touching story gets touchy between GCA members....

As a rules official, after collecting all information concerning a possible infraction, if there is no clear answer to the evidence, the benefit of doubt is given to the player.  If the player lies, that's something the player must live with.  It's an on the spot decision.

Call it corny if you will but in my mind this is what makes golf the greatest game on the planet.  Honor, integrity.  It's a reflection of how someone lives there life, not just plays a game.  That's MY opinion and how I choose to live my life.

"Golf gives you an insight into human nature, your own as well as your opponent's."  ~Grantland Rice

Pete, thanks for sharing.

Ken

Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: I got a phone call last night--------------
« Reply #80 on: December 17, 2011, 10:22:26 AM »
John and I got it sorted out via PM...nothing touchy at all. I recommend the PM ... we should know instinctively to avoid the "Post" button and keep thing private. As John's people say, We good.
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: I got a phone call last night--------------
« Reply #81 on: December 17, 2011, 12:40:10 PM »
Wow guys.  A touching story gets touchy between GCA members....

As a rules official, after collecting all information concerning a possible infraction, if there is no clear answer to the evidence, the benefit of doubt is given to the player.  If the player lies, that's something the player must live with.  It's an on the spot decision.

Call it corny if you will but in my mind this is what makes golf the greatest game on the planet.  Honor, integrity.  It's a reflection of how someone lives there life, not just plays a game.  That's MY opinion and how I choose to live my life.

"Golf gives you an insight into human nature, your own as well as your opponent's."  ~Grantland Rice

Pete, thanks for sharing.

Ken

Ken,

The structure of the rules and how they are enforced is what I like most less about the game.  Overzealous competitors who call infractions that lead to a he said she said scenario hold no honor.  My youngest son lost interest is competitive golf for this very reason.  I went to pick him up after a tournament and found him sitting alone crying because another child's parents had called him a cheat.  It seems his ball hit a tree in a lateral hazard and bounced back into play.  They, non golfers, said that because the ball was in a hazard it was a penalty whether it came out on its own or not.  It ended up being a prolonged argument where he became confused and took the penalty because they refused to play on until he agreed.  The adults, he was 10, convinced him he was a cheat.

Now I know this is unusual and extreme but in my opinion it is what happened here.  If this man is truly as pure as he says I seriously doubt that he believed his ball moved that day.  After years of reflection, or maybe even later that day, his mind started to doubt and guilt built it up to what his opponent wanted him to believe and admit.  It should have never gotten this far.  The opponent should have accepted his opinion and not brought one official, or in this instance two to the scene.

I see nothing good about either scenario or a game that needs to be officiated as such.  This is why I only play match play against opponents in my group.  An ideal game is one where the ball is never touched until you reach the green and if you lose the ball you start with you lose the hole.

If there was truly honor in the game we would not have rules officials.  No offense, but I see most of you guys like small town cops who wear your rule book on your sleeve like a pearl handled glock.  For golf to truly have honor we need to go back to the wild west where men settled disputes between each other.  Wedges at ten paces.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2011, 12:42:45 PM by John Kavanaugh »

Ken Fry

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: I got a phone call last night--------------
« Reply #82 on: December 17, 2011, 01:23:18 PM »

Ken,

The structure of the rules and how they are enforced is what I like most less about the game.  Overzealous competitors who call infractions that lead to a he said she said scenario hold no honor.  My youngest son lost interest is competitive golf for this very reason.  I went to pick him up after a tournament and found him sitting alone crying because another child's parents had called him a cheat.  It seems his ball hit a tree in a lateral hazard and bounced back into play.  They, non golfers, said that because the ball was in a hazard it was a penalty whether it came out on its own or not.  It ended up being a prolonged argument where he became confused and took the penalty because they refused to play on until he agreed.  The adults, he was 10, convinced him he was a
you reach the green and if you lose the ball you start with you lose the hole.

If there was truly honor in the game we would not have rules officials.  No offense, but I see most of you guys like small town cops who wear your rule book on your sleeve like a pearl handled glock.  For golf to truly have honor we need to go back to the wild west where men settled disputes between each other.  Wedges at ten paces.

Jaka,

I see your point and I hope your son found his way back to playing.  I believe in the end, the whole situation could have been a great learning experience.  Standing up for yourself even against adults if you believe you are right and the need to know the rules of the game to play in tournaments.  I've dealt with parents like that many times and it doesn't matter if little Jimmy is playing tennis, soccer, football or whatever.  They would still be pains in the butt.

As far as playing the role as small town cops, I'd counter that I've always felt like a coach/teacher than a cop.  Most rules officials act this way.  No one is looking for the "gotcha" moment to nail a competitor for doing something wrong.  Are there "Hometown Harrys" that act like cops?  Sure, but they don't last long because no one wants them around.

Do conflicts sometimes arise between players?  Of course.  What sport doesn't have that.  It doesn't mean we stop playing because of it.  The day your son played, he was failed by the adults in the group who didn't know what they were talking about and weren't smart enough to say so.  Sounds like the game exposed the parents for what they really are.

Ken

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: I got a phone call last night--------------
« Reply #83 on: December 17, 2011, 01:28:37 PM »
John,

We clearly run in different circles because Joe Sixpack who plays public golf is not a stickler for the rules. I see numerous rules violations again and again, and none of us feel compelled to say anything...unless its the obvious blatant ones like foot wedging to get the ball back in play. 

Not everyone takes this game dead serious.....hell I would bet there are more players like that over the hardcore rules mavens.

As for me, i play the game to the best knowledge of the rules and take my scores/decisions accordingly.

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: I got a phone call last night--------------
« Reply #84 on: December 17, 2011, 01:32:16 PM »
As far as playing the role as small town cops, I'd counter that I've always felt like a coach/teacher than a cop.  Most rules officials act this way.  No one is looking for the "gotcha" moment to nail a competitor for doing something wrong.  Are there "Hometown Harrys" that act like cops?  Sure, but they don't last long because no one wants them around.

Do conflicts sometimes arise between players?  Of course.  What sport doesn't have that.  It doesn't mean we stop playing because of it.  The day your son played, he was failed by the adults in the group who didn't know what they were talking about and weren't smart enough to say so.  Sounds like the game exposed the parents for what they really are.

Ken

I'm usually wrong in interpreting John, but I think he's not saying the officials act like small town cops, he's saying the mere presence results in players not being able to mediate their own disputes (hence his belief there is not much honor).

None of these things are easy, hence the need for officials, imho. All of the officials I know, to a man, have the players best interests at heart and work hard to resolve disputes under that premise.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Scott Warren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: I got a phone call last night--------------
« Reply #85 on: December 17, 2011, 01:46:27 PM »
Quote
No offense, but I see most of you guys like small town cops who wear your rule book on your sleeve like a pearl handled glock.

George, if the above quote isn't an insult, I don't know what is.

Pete, thanks for sharing your story and I'm sorry John Kavanaugh has managed to turn the thread into what it now is. Yet another unintended "GTK JakaB".

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: I got a phone call last night--------------
« Reply #86 on: December 17, 2011, 02:34:03 PM »
John,

We clearly run in different circles because Joe Sixpack who plays public golf is not a stickler for the rules. I see numerous rules violations again and again, and none of us feel compelled to say anything...unless its the obvious blatant ones like foot wedging to get the ball back in play. 

Not everyone takes this game dead serious.....hell I would bet there are more players like that over the hardcore rules mavens.

As for me, i play the game to the best knowledge of the rules and take my scores/decisions accordingly.

Kalen,

Just last year you incorrectly called a penalty on a stranger.

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: I got a phone call last night--------------
« Reply #87 on: December 17, 2011, 02:47:56 PM »
I don't see any honor in a game where parents have to protect their children from other competitors.

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: I got a phone call last night--------------
« Reply #88 on: December 17, 2011, 03:00:36 PM »
I don't see any honor in a game where parents have to protect their children from other competitors.

Shouldn't that read "from other competitors parents"?

We all know people with less than honorable intentions or motives, but until I see a similar thread from a referee or umpire in any other sport I'll continue to believe that the game is an honorable one.
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: I got a phone call last night--------------
« Reply #89 on: December 17, 2011, 03:07:25 PM »
Jim,

In a chicken or egg situation I blame the rules before the parents.

Tim Martin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: I got a phone call last night--------------
« Reply #90 on: December 17, 2011, 03:17:13 PM »
I don't see any honor in a game where parents have to protect their children from other competitors.

It is easy to see how John is disillusioned with the process after relating what happened to his son at a junior tournament at the hands of over zealous and ill informed parents. Both in the Connecticut PGA Section`s junior tournaments(with the exception of their 2 day championship) and High School matches there are no spectators allowed. As far as the PGA junior tournaments that decision was made directly as a result of meddlesome parents. The kids are better off learning the game in that fashion especially under medal play conditions. If they can`t agree inside their group only then is a rules official summoned. Rules officials who do it on a volunteer basis and have the requisite training have the games best interest at heart and by and large are a credit to the game we all love so.  
« Last Edit: December 17, 2011, 04:16:44 PM by Tim Martin »

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: I got a phone call last night--------------
« Reply #91 on: December 17, 2011, 03:19:11 PM »
As Pete Blaisdell said, in the absence of any contrary evidence the ruling is always made in favor of the player. How much more honorable can you get than that, i.e. endowing the player with trust?

It's a very 'religious' concept, akin to giving humans free will.  
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: I got a phone call last night--------------
« Reply #92 on: December 17, 2011, 03:24:44 PM »
Didn't God give us Moses to limit thousands of Comandments down to ten. We need those in charge of the rules to have the vision to do the same. Sadly it is easier to part a man from his money than his power. The modern rules official and overzealous competitors relish that power more than the game.

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: I got a phone call last night--------------
« Reply #93 on: December 17, 2011, 03:47:04 PM »
You have that wrong, Mel Brooks came down from the mountain with more than ten  ;)

I may be remembering this incorrectly, but the ten commandments were the basis for the 600+ laws of Moses that followed. That sounds very similar to our present rules of golf which started with 13 and have been compounded to the present day number, along with decisions.

We've all met some rules fools, but the outcome of their folly is usually the same, they become pariahs. If you were tell any number of people the story of your son's tribulations at the hand of adults I don't think any one of them would look unkindly upon the rules or the game, but they would surely question the intentions of the parents.   


"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

JMEvensky

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: I got a phone call last night--------------
« Reply #94 on: December 17, 2011, 03:49:00 PM »

Didn't God give us Moses to limit thousands of Comandments down to ten. We need those in charge of the rules to have the vision to do the same. Sadly it is easier to part a man from his money than his power. The modern rules official and overzealous competitors relish that power more than the game.
 

JK,man you like to cite the Chosen People.You're not one of those Madonna-like Kabbalah devotees are you?

I think you need to distinguish between Rules Officials and lay people working at area amateur events.I agree that the lay person occasionally allows the power to go to his head--usually with bad results.

However,guys who've taken the time to go through workshops tend to have better judgement.

Jay Flemma

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: I got a phone call last night--------------
« Reply #95 on: December 17, 2011, 04:16:49 PM »
Even after several days to think about it, I still don't know what to make of this. I mean, if I'm on my deathbed and I'm thinking about making amends to people, an amateur golf tournament qualifier seems down the list.  It seems odd - perhaps that's even why the wife told you that he was heavily sedated.  Did you perhaps wonder if he was calling any other people to make amends about other things?  I mean, how did he even know your name to begin with?  Is it common for amateur golfers to know the names of volunteer rules officials?

I mean talk about a statistical outlier or Rain Man-esque but of recall (or research).  After several decades pass, a guy is able to contact the rules official from a qualifier on a ruling?  I think there is just as much a story that he was able to get a hold of you as there is in him doing it!  I mean even the fertile mind of John Kavanaugh couldn't dream up this scenario!

Again, kudos to him if he truly is a golf nut who feels remorse about the incident.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2011, 04:20:13 PM by Jay Flemma »
Mackenzie, MacRayBanks, Maxwell, Doak, Dye, Strantz. @JayGolfUSA, GNN Radio Host of Jay's Plays www.cybergolf.com/writerscorner

Stuart Goldstein

Re: I got a phone call last night--------------
« Reply #96 on: December 17, 2011, 06:24:22 PM »
There is something about this whole story that just doesn't sit right with me.  A man, on his death bed, has his wife research and dig up the phone number of a rules official from a tournament as long as 20 years ago to apologize for cheating. He states this is the only time he has ever cheated in his life. Never cheated before in golf? Never in school? Never bent the rules at work?  Handled everything perfectly at home? Call me cynical but if someone has cheated once, chance are he has cheated before.  Not saying he is pathological but I am guessing it wasn't the only time.    I think there is more here, possible including the belief that he may have somatized himself.  I might very well be wrong but just my 2 cents worth.

Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: I got a phone call last night--------------
« Reply #97 on: December 17, 2011, 06:37:30 PM »
Now that I know what somatize means, I can continue.

Guys, it may not be as far-fetched as it seems. Pete indicated that he shifted a few things around to preserve the anonymity of the player in question. For all we know, they were great friends!

Give us enough time (or boredom) and we'll suspect the number of eyes we see staring back at us in the mirror.
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Tim Martin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: I got a phone call last night--------------
« Reply #98 on: December 17, 2011, 06:56:55 PM »
Now that I know what somatize means, I can continue.

Guys, it may not be as far-fetched as it seems. Pete indicated that he shifted a few things around to preserve the anonymity of the player in question. For all we know, they were great friends!

Give us enough time (or boredom) and we'll suspect the number of eyes we see staring back at us in the mirror.

If he admittedly shifted a few things around why shouldn`t people have reservations or questions about the account?

Peter Pallotta

Re: I got a phone call last night--------------
« Reply #99 on: December 17, 2011, 07:02:25 PM »
.
« Last Edit: December 18, 2011, 03:57:04 PM by PPallotta »

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