Scotland ‘does not need’ any more new golf courses

[Adrian_Stiff]

Nial - I assume CS and the Aberdeen project are debt free, if not then they must really pray. Askernish I can understand the plan a bit, but I still think its a bit strange that its £20 to play the course and £200 to get there scenario...that sort of thing is a big stymie. Aberdeen might be less of a stymie but its a bloody long way up. The Americans might go there, but with so many easier to get too's in Scotland with a better pedigree, I fear it will lose in this current race as the market narrows.... but I absolutely hope I am miles out.
Castle Stuart is gorgeous and certainly our members want to go there.... wanting and doing is another ball game and I expect another 4 hours on from St Andrews they will chose the old grey toon (in fact I am sure they will as we have just bought an 8 bed property nearby).

[David_Tepper]

Adrian -

I think Castle Stuart's close proximity to Inverness Airport and nearness to Nairn & Dornoch will bring golfers there for a visit of more than just a day or two. Once they have accommodations built on site, that will facilitate longer stays.

DT

[Niall C]

Adrian

I don't have the exact figures to hand but Aberdeen has a population of over 300,000 and is one of the wealthiest cities in the uK with an economy that is still ticking over very nicely no matter there fears that oil will dry up next week. I really don't think they will be relying entirely on foreign visitors but the lumping great big hotel next to the course certainly will help.

CS - I'll be interested to see how it develops. Accommodation on site might help the golf but not sure a hotel would sustain itself in that location particularly if they continue the current practice of closing the course for the winter months. What I think might be critical is how CS knits with the other golf around to encourage groups of golfers to stay for a while. They already have been offering some nice packages with Dornoch and Nairn. If they added some of the other local courses as well it could help develop this part of the country as a destination.

Niall 

[Adrian_Stiff]

David - I hope so. The British Isles is quite strange in that historically everything is perceived better the further South you go and no one wants to go North. I suppose us Southerners think the weather is much worse up there and we think of driving rain and high winds (much like here today) that sorta inscription is in our heads for planning Winter golf in the South. We do 90% of our golf bookings in the 7 month summer period, some winter days we get just 3 or 4 tee times booked out, the uncertainty of UK weather makes it so difficult to plan for the winter....that is the same negative that I think is in Southerners heads but I hope I am wrong. I do agree CS has a better chance and those chances are increased with on site accomadition as the proximities of Nairn, The Boat, etc where groups can plan a 3 day tour. Its exposure with the Scottish Open will be massive, equally the Trump will get lots of ink over the next year. Timing of ink is always important and sadly the time at the moment aint right.

[Sean_A]

I think all three clubs can succeed.  Aberdeen still has oil interest and business associated with that.  I can easily see Trump dragging in this business with a hotel'golf complex.

CS is right by the airport and when they get rooms I think it will do well so long as they can drag in people over the winter.  That may mean Turnberry type deals.  I can certainly see going to CS and paying over the odds a bit because I like to be close to the airport for the last day when I need to catch a flight. 

Askernish will do okay because they don't spend money. 

All that said, Adrian is right.  I am not likely to entertain a Nov-Feb (maybe March) winter golf trip in Scotland because of weather and I think many other golfers feel the same.  The chances of snow, ice, frost or rain are just too great.  Its bad enough from Dec thru Feb in southern England, but I could probably be persuaded to visit certain places on a cheap deal.  I have been to Woodhall Spa a few times on one these when it was £80 B&B and 2 games of golf - especially if one is confident he can blag his way onto the main course for both games. 

Ciao

[Ally Mcintosh]

Ireland was obviously a few years before Scotland in having these kind of restrictions passed down...

Ever since, I've been banging the drum about how you can't make a blanket statement saying that there are too many... only too many of the wrong kind. There should still be room for the right kind...

Ally

What restrictions ?

Niall

Unfortunately when a golf watchdog, appointed by a governing / funding body, says that Scotland does not need new golf courses, that governing / funding body inevitably takes the advice and cuts all help to new developments on the back of such a report, as do all other bodies who cite that governing / funding body's word as gospel. In my mind, this is a restriction.

[Sean_A]

Ally

I certainly don't mind the idea of "help" being withdrawn from potential golf course developers.  However, if a guy has a good business plan, the cash to fund it and some balls, I say let him have a go - thats competition and I suspect this has not been restricted.

Ciao

[Ally Mcintosh]

Ally

I certainly don't mind the idea of "help" being withdrawn from potential golf course developers.  However, if a guy has a good business plan, the cash to fund it and some balls, I say let him have a go - thats competition and I suspect this has not been restricted.

Ciao

That "help" comes in many forms though Sean... Many of the developments we love come with some public funding... Many of those sustainable developments we'd love to see are done on low budgets and don't have multi-million pound investments... Not to mention permitting becoming more difficult on the back of "no more golf courses"... With no "help" it will always be the Donald Trumps that succeed, not the little man...

Adrian's perhaps the best to comment on this - he has more experience on both sides of the fence...

[Sean_A]

Ally

I certainly don't mind the idea of "help" being withdrawn from potential golf course developers.  However, if a guy has a good business plan, the cash to fund it and some balls, I say let him have a go - thats competition and I suspect this has not been restricted.

Ciao

That "help" comes in many forms though Sean... Many of the developments we love come with some public funding... Many of those sustainable developments we'd love to see are done on low budgets and don't have multi-million pound investments... Not to mention permitting becoming more difficult on the back of "no more golf courses"... With no "help" it will always be the Donald Trumps that succeed, not the little man...

Adrian's perhaps the best to comment on this - he has more experience on both sides of the fence...

Ally

Put me in the camp of not wanting public funding for golf courses.  It doesn't make much sense for the government to encourage use of land to in effect compete with other similar use of land which results in a no gain (another course would probably fail if the new one survives) for employment or tax base.  No, the Scottish and UK governments need to spend money on developing manu-services and high tech manufacturing (and other exportable commodities) - not golf courses.  Indeed the government should never have allowed its manufacturing base to erode - one of the biggest mistakes by serious egg heads who never lived in the trenches of daily life.  Such a common sense concept that I still shake my head over people not understanding in their mad rush for globalization.  I guess too few ask many questions when the times are good even if those times were funded almost entirely by debt.

Ciao     

[Ally Mcintosh]

I'm not sure it's just public funding I'm talking about though Sean... When "no more golf courses" is rolled out, it's difficult to get any project off the ground... and I'm quite sure many of your favourite golf courses wouldn't exist without some form of hand-out along the road...

In Ireland, the money has stopped from all sources... public, private, wherever... This is becasue of the "no more golf courses" mantra and pays no heed or doesn't differentiate between what may be a successful business model versus the over-the-top non-sustainable developments that were created through the last 20 years... A golf course is a golf course... The perception is that it is cursed...

[Adrian_Stiff]

I know in Ireland you got quite a bit of funding for a new golf course linked to Irish Tourism, we dont get that in England. I do not know policies in Wales or Scotland for new golf development. In Ireland some courses have only lasted a few years with millions put in, quite sad really.

Certainly with over supply any funding should stop now and I assume it has (a long time ago). Equally I agree with Sean if a chap wants to go it alone then good luck to him. Equally I can understand what Ally is saying when a Scottish 'No we dont any more golf courses' can be restrictive in a number of ways, for instance it would help a bank lending you the money if they knew of this 'strong statement' and when an authority talks those statements start to become 'like a semi law'.

There are'nt any nice answers. I am just about to meet with Ben Stephens we are working on a new course here in the West Country, its a 9 holer that is extending but we are going to do a brand new 18 using the old and new land. The reason it works it will cost nothing. I could not honestly advise anyone to build a golf course at the moment in this country. I dont think I am a pessimist, I think I am a realist but I can't forsee much brightness for a long time and debt ridden projects and business plans with sign ups at £100,000 I just dont understand, golf needs to get back to £25 a round and budget your spend from there. I have never had a financial failure (touch wood) but I have always been cautious with budgets and I find it very hard to justify anymore than $150,000 for the golf design side. As soon as clubs give architects more than then it starts to be an icky plan.

[Simon Holt]

Adrian,

I am sure all the other architects will be delighted with the end of that last post

Simon

[Tom_Doak]

I know in Ireland you got quite a bit of funding for a new golf course linked to Irish Tourism, we dont get that in England. I do not know policies in Wales or Scotland for new golf development. In Ireland some courses have only lasted a few years with millions put in, quite sad really.

Certainly with over supply any funding should stop now and I assume it has (a long time ago). Equally I agree with Sean if a chap wants to go it alone then good luck to him. Equally I can understand what Ally is saying when a Scottish 'No we dont any more golf courses' can be restrictive in a number of ways, for instance it would help a bank lending you the money if they knew of this 'strong statement' and when an authority talks those statements start to become 'like a semi law'.

There are'nt any nice answers. I am just about to meet with Ben Stephens we are working on a new course here in the West Country, its a 9 holer that is extending but we are going to do a brand new 18 using the old and new land. The reason it works it will cost nothing. I could not honestly advise anyone to build a golf course at the moment in this country. I dont think I am a pessimist, I think I am a realist but I can't forsee much brightness for a long time and debt ridden projects and business plans with sign ups at £100,000 I just dont understand, golf needs to get back to £25 a round and budget your spend from there. I have never had a financial failure (touch wood) but I have always been cautious with budgets and I find it very hard to justify anymore than $150,000 for the golf design side. As soon as clubs give architects more than then it starts to be an icky plan.

The money for new golf courses in Ireland [15-20 years ago anyway] was coming from EU development grants to promote tourism in the poorer EU member countries.

Unless everything we see of Europe in the financial pages lately is wildly inaccurate, those days are long gone!

[Mark Chaplin]

I can see special high end places in the right area  standing a chance but as mentioned earlier golf in Scotland for locals is by and large very cheap, aiming at the local member market with a modest concern is likely to be a recipe for financial disaster.

[Anthony Gray]

  Any stats on a downward turn in golf tourism in Scotland?

  Anthony

[Mark Chaplin]

The boycott by some GCA'ers (who've never been to Scotland) is having a massive effect.

[Niall C]

I think sometimes people forget that quite a lot of visitors at Scottish courses are scots from other places. For instance I know a good number of people from the Glasgow area who have played CS. They probably won't be back unless they get it as part of a package simply because it prices itself out of the repeat play market for that type of visitor but they will continue to get a lot of scottish first time visitors I'm sure.

Anytime I'm on a weekend trip with friends to NB, Gullane, St Andrews or where ever, it tends to be in Scotland and we always see other groups of Scots visitors as well.

Ally

Planning policy in Scotland is generally supportive of building golf courses (Adrian may disagree) provided its not a housing development masquerading as a golf course. Thats where the problem starts. Economics will have much more of an effect on stopping development than what the Scottish Golf Union say. By the time the economic situation becomes favourable again the SGU will have changed its tune.

Sean

CS closes over the winter and that is bound to effect the hotel. If I was coming up here for  a winter break there are a lot of good existing country house hotels to choose from and I suspect most folk would go for them rather than a modern hotel overlooking a closed golf course.

Niall

[David_Tepper]

"Any stats on a downward turn in golf tourism in Scotland?"

Anthony Gray -

I have no stats at all, but my guess is that golf tourism in Scotland has rebounded from its low in 2009. My guess is 2006 & 2007 were the peak years and 2011 was perhaps 10% below those levels.

DT

[Ally Mcintosh]

Ally

Planning policy in Scotland is generally supportive of building golf courses (Adrian may disagree) provided its not a housing development masquerading as a golf course. Thats where the problem starts. Economics will have much more of an effect on stopping development than what the Scottish Golf Union say. By the time the economic situation becomes favourable again the SGU will have changed its tune.

But will planning policy remain supportive now the SGU has said "no more golf courses"?... What I was getting at is how Adrian read it - these things pass in to a kind of "semi-law", a crutch to say no to everything regardless of whether it makes business sense... At least that's my perception in Ireland which is about 4 years ahead of the Scottish curve in this respect...

But of course economics is the biggest driver as you state...

[Adrian_Stiff]

I dont know anything about Scottish Planning Law, but I think almost everywhere relates to anywhere right now. The SGU are right in all honesty, but I do think market forces should dictate.

There is some horrible 'other stuff' out there that probably will factor into the next 10 years.

From an industry point of you, being realistic there is no point in being a golf course architect for the next 10-15 years. Efforts really need to be concentrated into getting new people to play and attracting the Asian population that live here into playing the sport and intergrating them into the existing golf networks. School programmes and attracting juniors are needed and we need to concentrate on better ways of retaining customers, 2-4-1s, Groupons and MyCityDeals are not the way.

Alternative is courses do need to close and the 1990 Way forward and 700 courses recommended needs a 2012 document but with a not so nice title.

[Niall C]

Ally

I'm pretty sure that anyone who shouts "economic development and lots of jobs" will get more than a favourable hearing and thats the crux of it. The vast majority of courses in this country may belong to a traditional old fashioned club however when was the last time one of those was created or an existing one relocated to a new golf course ? There may be some (very) rare examples, and I'm struggling to think of any beyond Askernish which is a revised golf club and the high end "clubs" like Renaissance, Archerfield, Loch Lomond etc. If you think about it, pretty well all golf development over the last, what 50 years ?, has been commercially orientated. Therefore I've got to think the next golf development will be as well and I really don't see the local authorities giving a stuff what Hamish Grey says when someone pitches up and talks about jobs and investment.

Adrian

I think the secret going forward is for clubs to be more sustainable in an economic sense. The top notch clubs with good set ups and good courses will survive simply by being the best, and the low end local clubs will likely survive because they already run on tight budgets and can cut their cloth to suit more easily than others.

Where I think we'll see casualties is in the middle clubs that fancied themselves country clubs, they will likely suffer but even then their are savings to be made starting with the clubhouse. We've talked about this before but thats the first place I would make big savings. If I had to I would run a bulldozer through it and have a couple of portacabins for changing rooms. For those more interested in the "afternoon at the club" lifestyle, let them go to a health club and leave the golfers to it.

Niall