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Brian_Ewen

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Scotland ‘does not need’ any more new golf courses
« on: December 12, 2011, 01:54:04 AM »
Scotland ‘does not need’ any more new golf courses
SCOTLAND does not need any new golf courses as the sport’s boom years have firmly come to an end, according to a survey by a golf watchdog.

A strategic plan by the Scottish Golf Union, which represents 580 clubs around the country, is to recommend no more courses be built north of the border.

The revelations come as Whitemoss golf course in Perthshire announced it would close and revert to being farmland.

The organisation says clubs need to focus on existing facilities in the midst of tough economic times.

They also say two tough winters have taken their toll on Scottish courses, which have had to shut their doors for up to a month at a time.

The Union’s chief executive said more closures would not be surprising.

While where has been a 20 per cent growth in Scottish courses since the early 1990’s, there are no more people playing golf now than there were then, according to the union’s chiefs.

The full findings of the Scottish Golf Facilities Plan, which saw over 90 per cent of the Union’s 580 member clubs take part in a survey, are due to be published next year.

A statement from the Scottish Golf Union said: “Golf Clubs in Scotland, like many businesses, are having to adapt to the continuing, difficult financial conditions.

“The reality is that in the past 20 years there has been almost a 20 per cent growth in golf courses throughout Scotland.

“Yet, after the impact of the economic downturn, there are no more people playing than there were before this growth in facilities.

“Undoubtedly, some clubs are struggling and Whitemoss, in Perthshire, is an example, given that it is reverting to farm land for economic reasons.

“There may be other clubs who also endure problems in the future.

“The soon-to-be-published Scottish Golf Facilities Plan will undoubtedly state that Scotland does not need more courses.

 

“Instead investment in existing facilities and innovative programmes is necessary to introduce new players and retain existing players.

“Importantly, it’s not just about financial conditions. The inclement weather in Scotland has as much to do with the tough times as the economy.”

But the Union said some clubs were showing an increase boost in members, and it was aiming to boost interest in the sport through education.

The statement continued: ”While national figures showed a reduction of 1.4% in adult male membership in 2010, reducing the decline against the previous year, 40.4% of Scottish clubs grew their membership in that year, illustrating how well many clubs are adapting to trying times.

“It’s encouraging to see clubs that innovate and are creative grow their membership, with the SGU working hard to support clubs with advice and tools.”

Hamish Grey, chief executive of the Scottish Golf Union said: “When you look at the figures for growth in clubs against growth in members, the maths doesn’t work.

“I can’t say it’s inevitable that courses are closing, but I wouldn’t be surprised to see more closing. Many clubs are not run as a business.

“I think all clubs should be looking at their own circumstances.”

He said it wasn’t just local courses which were being hit by difficult economic times: “I don’t think you can generalise like that. These factors are hitting everyone. They’ve all got the same challenges.”

But he said US billionaire Donald Trump’s forthcoming golf course near Aberdeen would bring benefits to the area.

He said: ”I won’t be drawn on individual cases. But the reality is it will bring more people into the Aberdeen area, it will be a benefit to the local economy and courses in that area.

“Green fees can account for just 30% of a golf club’s takings, so there’s a lot of other things courses can be looking at.

“Visitor income accounts for 60% of some club’s revenue, it’s what makes some clubs viable. Golf tourism is very important.”

Mr Grey said each case needed to be taken on its individual merit.

He said the loss of courses like Whitemoss, which will revert back to being sheep-grazing land after being converted from a farm in 1992, was regrettable.

He said: “No one wants to see courses closing, so yes it’s a shame. But I would say to any members of that club that there are many other clubs nearby.

“It’s a challenging time, but it’s not all negative.”

Mark_Rowlinson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Scotland ‘does not need’ any more new golf courses
« Reply #1 on: December 12, 2011, 11:00:28 AM »
It's happened before - there's a long list of NLE courses in the UK, and a great many of those were in Scotland.

Mark Chaplin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Scotland ‘does not need’ any more new golf courses
« Reply #2 on: December 12, 2011, 11:05:03 AM »
Membership fees are much lower north of the border so it's difficult to see how "locals" courses could be built and remain viable.
Cave Nil Vino

John Kavanaugh

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Re: Scotland ‘does not need’ any more new golf courses
« Reply #3 on: December 12, 2011, 11:08:44 AM »
I was shocked to learn last night that the salmon at the sushi bar was imported from Scotland.  It looked very delicious.

Mark_Rowlinson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Scotland ‘does not need’ any more new golf courses
« Reply #4 on: December 12, 2011, 11:19:09 AM »
And we get a lot of Alaskan smoked salmon here in the UK.

Mark Chaplin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Scotland ‘does not need’ any more new golf courses
« Reply #5 on: December 12, 2011, 11:37:36 AM »
I boycott that as poor people get turned away from medical treatment if they have no insurance.  ;)
Cave Nil Vino

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Scotland ‘does not need’ any more new golf courses
« Reply #6 on: December 12, 2011, 02:19:16 PM »
After reading this it seems that the Scottish Golf Union, to which I pay a sub and am a member of, needs a new chief exec. Did Henry Ford decide after the first couple of million cars that that was enough or did he and others decide that they could build better cars to replace the old ones ?

I've not played Whitemoss, but from what Ive been told it won't need much changing back to farmland. That, allied to the fact that it is located in a rural locale with low population and it was always going to be marginal.

Niall

Shane Wright

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Re: Scotland ‘does not need’ any more new golf courses
« Reply #7 on: December 12, 2011, 05:07:25 PM »
After reading this it seems that the Scottish Golf Union, to which I pay a sub and am a member of, needs a new chief exec. Did Henry Ford decide after the first couple of million cars that that was enough or did he and others decide that they could build better cars to replace the old ones ?

I've not played Whitemoss, but from what Ive been told it won't need much changing back to farmland. That, allied to the fact that it is located in a rural locale with low population and it was always going to be marginal.

Niall

Niall, you took the words out of my mouth.  A nationwide moratorium on building any new golf courses seems a little ridiculous.  


Kris Shreiner

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Re: Scotland ‘does not need’ any more new golf courses
« Reply #8 on: December 12, 2011, 05:53:12 PM »
Niall,

Bang on! It seems the quality component of the equation is lost on these folks. Let's be frank...there was a TON of marginal product in the way of course design put out there, worldwide, in the last twenty years. Questionable sites, bloated budgets and a host of other unsustainable calls led to a predictable end...where we are now. The shake-out will continue and a leaner, hopefully somewhat wiser game will emerge. That said, I'm already seeing some head scratcher stuff, so maybe the short memory trends will continue, just exported to new markets.

Cheers,
Kris 8)
"I said in a talk at the Dunhill Tournament in St. Andrews a few years back that I thought any of the caddies I'd had that week would probably make a good golf course architect. We all want to ask golfers of all abilities to get more out of their games -caddies do that for a living." T.Doak

Kyle Harris

Re: Scotland ‘does not need’ any more new golf courses
« Reply #9 on: December 12, 2011, 06:11:16 PM »
Niall/Shane/Kris,

Are you guys seriously comparing the utility of a car to the utility of a golf course for society?

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Scotland ‘does not need’ any more new golf courses
« Reply #10 on: December 12, 2011, 06:28:26 PM »
Golf isn't about "need".  Thats like saying we don't need any new libraries - totally meaningless.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Brian_Ewen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Scotland ‘does not need’ any more new golf courses
« Reply #11 on: December 12, 2011, 07:15:40 PM »
It's happened before - there's a long list of NLE courses in the UK, and a great many of those were in Scotland.
Mark
But Wars was the reason before, no ?

Tiger_Bernhardt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Scotland ‘does not need’ any more new golf courses
« Reply #12 on: December 12, 2011, 10:25:35 PM »
The spokesman for the Scottish golf Union knows how to be a yes man for D Trump. I am guessing he comes from a long line of yes men to the Queen or King. On a serious note, I always felt research for saturation of golf courses was more sophisicated than by country. I find it irresponsible for the Head of the Golfing Union to make a public statement that in effect could make projects more difficult to do. There are many people that might think this gentleman aka yes man might know what he is talking about. Or is the case of lenders and potential investers do not want to invest in a project when a public leaders say we have too many now.
« Last Edit: December 13, 2011, 12:03:29 PM by Tiger_Bernhardt »

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Scotland ‘does not need’ any more new golf courses
« Reply #13 on: December 13, 2011, 03:53:02 AM »
Ireland was obviously a few years before Scotland in having these kind of restrictions passed down...

Ever since, I've been banging the drum about how you can't make a blanket statement saying that there are too many... only too many of the wrong kind. There should still be room for the right kind...

Adrian_Stiff

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Scotland ‘does not need’ any more new golf courses
« Reply #14 on: December 13, 2011, 04:12:33 AM »
There may be an odd spot for a new one, (I have just heard of a new 11th course for St Andrews) but by and large there is not much room for any new courses in the UK at the moment and probably 10% need to close. Sadly we have over supply and dire economic situation and not too many entry level golfers, playstations have taken over from football in the park and pitch and putt golf.

I dont really understand the £100,000 to join UK situations that people think will work here and I also think Trumps Aberdeen course will fail, my reason is climate and situation not his ability to produce a great course. I just cant see people flocking to difficult places to get too and whilst it may be 'nice' to discover and create wonderful sites at Askernish and probably Castle Stuart I fear they just wont get the traffic to generate the incomes to stay safe. The arguements that its not about money may be fine and yes there are times when finery takes an upper hand to dafty dollars, but equally no one wants to see people toilet money and by and large building new golf courses at the moment certainly in the UK is akin to tossing your money away.
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

Adrian_Stiff

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Scotland ‘does not need’ any more new golf courses
« Reply #15 on: December 13, 2011, 04:16:01 AM »
Brian - The real world says more people will want to go to a K Club than a Carne. Thats something thats hard for the site to understand. Its not so much about the design, 99% will be more intrested in where Darren holed the putt from, very few will be intrested that Eddie Hacket just tucked that green in that hollow and its hard to get it close from the left side.
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Scotland ‘does not need’ any more new golf courses
« Reply #16 on: December 13, 2011, 05:41:06 AM »
Adrian,

I actually think Trump's Aberdeen course will have a chance based on location (if not climate). Cruden bay, Royal Aberdeen and Murcar always needed one more high profile course to make them a destination and this could be it. Coupled with their locality beside the airport, Aberdeen could become the new Fife, East Lothian, Ayrshire.

In Ireland (and the UK to a lesser extent) the problem for me was always the high-end operation & maintenance models not to mention initial outlay costs of so many developments of good but not great golfing merit. Many of these will close but in time they should hopefully be replaced by a more sustainable but quality product.


jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Scotland ‘does not need’ any more new golf courses
« Reply #17 on: December 13, 2011, 06:23:23 AM »
Brian - The real world says more people will want to go to a K Club than a Carne. Thats something thats hard for the site to understand. Its not so much about the design, 99% will be more intrested in where Darren holed the putt from, very few will be intrested that Eddie Hacket just tucked that green in that hollow and its hard to get it close from the left side.

Just be thankful the Ryder Cup didn't go a links course.

The world needs arsehole traps.
Let 'em kiss the Blarney stone, play the K Club, grab a pint of Guinness and say they've "done" Ireland.

No need to clutter up the good places (although it'd be hard to argue ballybunion didn't get quite cluttered for awhile there....)

« Last Edit: December 13, 2011, 07:11:25 AM by jeffwarne »
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Scotland ‘does not need’ any more new golf courses
« Reply #18 on: December 13, 2011, 07:09:57 AM »
edit
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Scotland ‘does not need’ any more new golf courses
« Reply #19 on: December 13, 2011, 12:13:13 PM »
Niall/Shane/Kris,

Are you guys seriously comparing the utility of a car to the utility of a golf course for society?

Kyle

Can't speak for the others but I'm not. I think you would need to try very hard to contrive that kind of meaning out of what's been said.

Niall

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Scotland ‘does not need’ any more new golf courses
« Reply #20 on: December 13, 2011, 12:56:50 PM »
The spokesman for the Scottish golf Union knows how to be a yes man for D Trump. I am guessing he comes from a long line of yes men to the Queen or King. On a serious note, I always felt research for saturation of golf courses was more sophisicated than by country. I find it irresponsible for the Head of the Golfing Union to make a public statement that in effect could make projects more difficult to do. There are many people that might think this gentleman aka yes man might know what he is talking about. Or is the case of lenders and potential investers do not want to invest in a project when a public leaders say we have too many now.

Tiger

You've got to remember the guy is representing a group of members not "the good of golf" however you define it. He just doesn't want them ie. clubs, to get competition. My point is not whether or not we have reached satuaration point for the amount of courses we can sustain but more about building better courses and facitlities. If the porrer courses end up closing up as a result, well thats just evolution.

Niall

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Scotland ‘does not need’ any more new golf courses
« Reply #21 on: December 13, 2011, 12:57:38 PM »
Ireland was obviously a few years before Scotland in having these kind of restrictions passed down...

Ever since, I've been banging the drum about how you can't make a blanket statement saying that there are too many... only too many of the wrong kind. There should still be room for the right kind...

Ally

What restrictions ?

Niall

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Scotland ‘does not need’ any more new golf courses
« Reply #22 on: December 13, 2011, 01:06:51 PM »
There may be an odd spot for a new one, (I have just heard of a new 11th course for St Andrews) but by and large there is not much room for any new courses in the UK at the moment and probably 10% need to close. Sadly we have over supply and dire economic situation and not too many entry level golfers, playstations have taken over from football in the park and pitch and putt golf.

I dont really understand the £100,000 to join UK situations that people think will work here and I also think Trumps Aberdeen course will fail, my reason is climate and situation not his ability to produce a great course. I just cant see people flocking to difficult places to get too and whilst it may be 'nice' to discover and create wonderful sites at Askernish and probably Castle Stuart I fear they just wont get the traffic to generate the incomes to stay safe. The arguements that its not about money may be fine and yes there are times when finery takes an upper hand to dafty dollars, but equally no one wants to see people toilet money and by and large building new golf courses at the moment certainly in the UK is akin to tossing your money away.

Adrian

I think you are wrong about Trumps course. Its part of a larger development that should work very well and I suspect the golf course build costs will be consumed within that. A bit of a loss leader if you will. Providing it doesn't have large debts weighing it down it will work just fine.

Askernish and Castle Stuart are two other good examples that are quite different. Askernish seems to me to be an oold fashioned local members course built in the old fashioned way on sustainable grounds ie if you don't have the money don't do it. Running costs are low, its run with local volunteers like any other members course in the UK and it will get a decent amount of visitor traffic to help keep it afloat. Unless the membership gives up the ghost, it will work also IMHO.

Castle Stuart, now this time last year I might have agreed with you. A high end course in the middle of nowhere with presumably large debt to finance and no appreciable real estate to help balance the budget. However I think the boost they got from the Scottuish Open could help make them, only time will tell. I certainly hope so.

Niall

Shane Wright

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Re: Scotland ‘does not need’ any more new golf courses
« Reply #23 on: December 13, 2011, 01:28:17 PM »
Niall/Shane/Kris,

Are you guys seriously comparing the utility of a car to the utility of a golf course for society?

Kyle

Can't speak for the others but I'm not. I think you would need to try very hard to contrive that kind of meaning out of what's been said.

Niall

Kyle, I agree with what Niall has said.  My point was that I think it is ridiculous that they can dictate carte blanche that no more golf courses can be built.  I know that Scotland is a much smaller country than the U.S. but clearly the U.S. has been overbuilt with golf courses and declaring a moratorium would have eliminated a lot of golf courses built in the U.S. that are really special.

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Scotland ‘does not need’ any more new golf courses
« Reply #24 on: December 13, 2011, 01:47:31 PM »
Deer season is good for the deer, just don't expect them to support what is good for them.