Paraparaumu Beach - try and get up and down from these greenside slopes!

[Mike_Clayton]

Would 13 would look better - and play better - if the fairway was wider on the left?. It looked that way to be from my 2002 memory.It would still be the hardest hole on the course with no rough - and it is a tremendous hard hole
Would that increase the problem with the houses?

[Bill_McBride]

How many bunkers are on the course?

Somehow this reminds of the Huntercombe thread and how unnecessary formal sand bunkers are to that course.

Is this a Mackenzie design / Russell construction?

[Ben Jarvis]

How many bunkers are on the course?

Somehow this reminds of the Huntercombe thread and how unnecessary formal sand bunkers are to that course.

Is this a Mackenzie design / Russell construction?

Bill,

Paraparaumu is an Alex Russell design.

I'm not sure on the total number of bunkers. Gut feeling is that it would be in the 20's though.

[Mike_Clayton]

I am not sure how many bunkers there are but basically three of the four par threes have no bunkers. There are a few way short of the 2nd that are not really in play. 5 and 16 especially are wonderful holes.
The one short hole that does have bunkers is the 14th and it is not a Russell original. I think that was altered a long time ago to move the green away from the boundary.

[Michael Goldstein]

Leo tells me there are 34 bunkers (I thought there were about 10 fewer than that).

Many have been added from Russell's original design, at least from what I know on 7, 12, 14 and 18

[Leo Barber]

Ben

Great thread and thank you for your wonderful photos and summary - which is remarkably observant and accurate from your short visit.  Apologies I am slow to the thread.  I can only think that I must have been preoccupied with the cricket the past few days and remiss in logging on to GCA.

I will have a read back over the posts and see if I can add anything but from my brief skim looks hard to beat Goldys effort in the second to last post.

Leo

[Leo Barber]

Ben S: Leo has a really effective way of communicating to the Super exactly what he wants from the course.

He is -- unless this has changed very recently -- both the GM and the Super. I suppose he subscribes to the adage, "if you want something done right, do it yourself"!

Hasn't changed Scott, but trying to let more of the day to day stuff go.  Sending out the greensmowers and then also dealing with complaints about the colour of the soap in the bathrooms or the price of a ballmarker in the golfshop can be quite consuming.   

[Leo Barber]

PBGC is a wonderful course only let down in my very humble opinion by the encroaching houses to the left of 10 & 11. Sadly something over which the club had no control. 2, 5 and 16 are great par threes using the land rather than water, ditches or a sea of sand. Leo and his team are doing a great job.

Anyone who can should take advantage of the 2012 Boomerang you are guaranteed a great trip.

The housing encroachment is one of the most disappointing aspects of pb.  We have tried to buffer the boundaries with planting where appropriate but strangely enough the trees have had trouble establishing.   

[Leo Barber]

It's a cool idea having the GM and the Super being the same person.  Leo (I know you're lurking), perhaps you could share with Ben how many exactly are on your crew?

Chappas, your criticism has been heard before.  Fortunately the house in the landing area on 11 is owned by good friends, father & son are both in the interclub team and one is a multiple club champion so I don't think they will be complaining about golf balls coming across...

Scott, interested in your thoughts about what, if anything, lets down PBGC.

Goldy, PB runs a fairly modest operation with a crew of 5 on the grounds plus myself (who can hardly be counted as a labour unit these days unfortunately).  With triplex mowing, 34 bunkers, only 30ha of maintained sandy links turf and a pretty passionate crew we actually get by pretty well but there is little margin for error or downtime. 

[Leo Barber]

Mike, interesting comment.  From what I understand once upon a time (pre Russell) the fairway used to run through the low ground on 8 to a slightly different green position. I understand your point with the wider fairway but plenty of people already go down there, from the low markers trying to drive to the green to the average player who pushes it trying to make the carry from the tee (c180 yards?).  I guess the question is, would the split fairway present the thinking golfer a viable alternative strategy and here the answer is very rarely.

Scott, I used to think the same re fairway bunkers but now I struggle to see the point. Theoretically you could (and then should) put dozens of fairway bunkers in but why? To protect par against the pro's every few years? It's such a windy place in the two opposite directions that it would seem impossible to dictate strategy of laying back off the tee. In the wind, I'm not sure modern equipment has had such a dramatic effect (except for the pro's). When Russell re-desidnged the course 60 years ago he did so with a view to it playing very firm and fast so have the strategies tee to green changed that much by a little extra length?

I guess the one place where a good discussion can be had about change are holes that have boundary issues (although obviously it would take a fool to consider change to 13).  

PBs strategy is essentially about angles and to assist this Russell utilised the subtle tilting of greens to the axis of the fairway supported by the wonderful landforms be it deep grassy swales or rumpled fairways and the occasional bunker.  I can't see a proliferation of bunkers greatly improving this.  8 is a brilliant hole and I often produce a Clayton report of the early 2000s from my office drawer which states "glad to see no improvements are suggested to this world class hole" for those suggesting "improvements" to this world class hole.  I remember walking this hole with Greg Turner way back when I first took over and hearing for the first time the architectural terms "line of instinct" and "line of charm".  This hole sums them up beautifully.  One of the things I really like about the 8th (and PB) is that you may not always hit that line of charm but you always have that chance of recovery and pulling off the miraculous shot.  Holding the green from the right on 8 is one of those examples and I don't believe you need either fairway, bunkers or a lower handicap to present that possibility.

There is only a couple of holes where I could see some additional bunkering really adding value and that is on the Par 5s which hold hold very little strategy off the tee - 7 and 12 particularly. 

[Scott Macpherson]

HI Leo,

Thanks for weighing in with your valued comments. Good to see you have Clayts over a barrel with his previous writings. Of course, he knows a lot more about design now. 10 years ago he was only at the start of his design journey. It could be possible that he may have revised his views in the light of his learning curve and new equipment? What hasn't changed is the great weight of interest the 8th hole provides us. But would it be more 'fun' if the fairway was wider?


Michael G,

You talk about the course in 'Pre-Russell' times. I have always believed Russell was the original designer. Do you have evidence to the contrary? If so, please share it.

scott

[Leo Barber]

HI Leo,

Thanks for weighing in with your valued comments. Good to see you have Clayts over a barrel with his previous writings. Of course, he knows a lot more about design now. 10 years ago he was only at the start of his design journey. It could be possible that he may have revised his views in the light of his learning curve and new equipment? What hasn't changed is the great weight of interest the 8th hole provides us. But would it be more 'fun' if the fairway was wider?


Michael G,

You talk about the course in 'Pre-Russell' times. I have also believed Russell was the original designer. Do you have evidence to the contrary? If so, please share it.

scott

Scott

There was an original 9 holes layed out over similar ground as to what is now PBs current back 9, in the early 30s.  This was extended to 18 by the then Professional several years later (the back 9 occupying the land that is now the front 9).  When Nathan, Whyte and Paterson all extremely successful businessmen got involved with the aim to developing 200 acres of housing as well as creating a course capable of hosting a national open.  They enlisted the services of Alex Russell (1949).  I have an aerial of the orginal layout in the 30s and the corridors of the then holes are suprisingly similar to those of today.  Its quite a large file and so I will see how I can best post this at some stage.  It is interesting though that some of the best holes and some of the ones we have discussed here 8,13,17 are Russell orginals and most of the others were redeveloped in some form to give them the genius they now enjoy.  I have a sketch of Russells original concept for the 8th which actually played along what was then the existing fairway (through the valley to the right of the current fairway) and then doglegged up to land where the line of houses (including Scotts) now occupy with the green sitting high.  I dont think the club owned the land at that stage and I guess the decision was made not to purchase it with Russell subsequently coming up with the alternative.

The current 17th with its split fairway was actually two holes.  One hole utilised the lower fairway playing in reverse to todays hole and a second hole played pretty much along the current upper fairway.  Russell took both these holes and turned them into one great hole

[Mike_Clayton]

Leo,

I wrote a report in the early 2000s?? I do remember writing something but nothing official.
I know I always wondered what 8 would have been like with fairway down there - not that I remember ever hitting it there. Left was more my go on that hole.
I hear so many good reports now about the course and what you have done with it - I look forward to getting back some day soon.
We need a Senior NZ Open down there perhaps.

[Scott Macpherson]

Hi Leo,

Thanks for the potted history. Now you say that, it does ring a bell. I have a copy of Russell's layout somewhere. Do you have this? I think it also have a letter with descriptions of the holes?  I got them from Bob Whyte some years ago. If you don't have copies, you (the Club) should. I'll be back in January. Let's try and catch up then.

As regards bunkers. If there are 34 on the course, am I right in saying there are only 5 fairway bunkers? (1 on the 12th and 4 on the 18th) There are two others close to greens, but slightly orphaned (1 on the 7th and 1 on 11th – both about 30y short and right).


scott

[Leo Barber]

Leo,

I wrote a report in the early 2000s?? I do remember writing something but nothing official.
I know I always wondered what 8 would have been like with fairway down there - not that I remember ever hitting it there. Left was more my go on that hole.
I hear so many good reports now about the course and what you have done with it - I look forward to getting back some day soon.
We need a Senior NZ Open down there perhaps.

Mike,

The Club asked both yourself and Sir Bob to comment on some suggested alterations back in 2000.  The content in both letters offered very valuable advice and much of what was written was taken onboard for the better (both what was done and what was not done!).  I must apologise however, I have dusted off the files today and discovered I have misrepresented your comments on 8 which I suggested in a previous post.  You actually made those comments about 17.  I am positioning myself over the barrell as I type.  On the 8th they were suggesting for the tee to be taken back LHS of the 7th green to add 40m.  Both you and Sir Bob politely advised against such a move.  You made this comment which I think is quite poignant - "great short par 4s can be ruined by simply lenghtening them "because you can". 

[Mike_Clayton]

Leo,

That makes more sense now. Now get that Senior Open arranged!!

[Grant Saunders]

Leo

I know you have had the dual role now for a while and am curious if you see this as being a potential path more clubs will travel in the future?

Also, by all accounts you have done a fantastic job of prioritising the playability of the course and have made great strides in promoting the return of bents and fescues. What has been the biggest hurdle/surprise and what, if any, further work lay ahead in this area?

PS- I envy you having 5 staff!!

[Leo Barber]

Grant,

There is a certain degree of rationalisation going on throughout the golf industry and I guess all clubs are looking and reviewing their operations to make them as viable as possible.  Re the joint GM/Supt role it really comes down to the individual situation and personalities/skills (not only of the actual person taking the role but the support people around that role).  Its a tough gig.  I actually would like to see a model like some of the club management companies have where you have several clubs in a region centrally managed.  Imagine all the payroll and admin being done centrally and say a regional supt.  I think you would see a huge improvement in both the balance sheets and in the overall standard of the courses.  Won't happen cause we are all prorochial but NZs model simply isnt sustainable in its current form. 

Re the biggest hurdle - sward conversion.  Many think if you simply turn off the irrigation and drop the fertiliser the finer grasses will come.  The reality is that yes that in itself will hamper the oppostion but the establishment process is incredibly difficult - more so with limited resources.  Establishing fescue into an existing fairway sward takes huge patience and the gains each year are snails pace.  Even tougher when you factor in very fine hydrophobic sands, limited irrigation and the inevitable dry summers/autumns we get here on the kapiti coast.  The greens whilst they have become more consistent still require a huge amount of attention.  As hard as it is to get fescue into fairways at 10mm, browntop into the greens at 3mm is even harder.  I don't get too hung up though, I try to focus on the surface and their firmness and adjust where appropriate for the variances thrown up by a mixed sward week to week (or even day to day!)

[Leo Barber]

Bill,

It was a pleasure to host you at PB and delighted you enjoyed your experience.  Would be one of the first times Ive heard the Kapiti Coast described as "tropical" though but we'll take it!!

Enjoy Melbourne

Leo