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PThomas

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no water on the course?
« on: December 10, 2011, 05:39:26 PM »
on another thread my good friend Mac stated "I dont like water on a golf course".....Mac I'd love to have you explain that statement more here...

makes me think of TD's comment when he discussed Oakmont in his book :"I've never understood why water to the right of a green is acceptable, but rough and a tilted green that makes it impossible to get up and down from the right are "unfair"".

any others feel like Mac?

 and 2 architects on GCA have stated that what might be the best course in the world has no water on it...
199 played, only Augusta National left to play!

Frank Pont

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Re: no water on the course?
« Reply #1 on: December 10, 2011, 06:00:32 PM »
If I had no design constraints I would always design a course with no water in play

Funny enough most golfers in Holland would only consider the course to be a real course if it has at least 2 holes with water in play

Mac Plumart

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Re: no water on the course?
« Reply #2 on: December 10, 2011, 06:21:41 PM »
Paul...

To me, the neccessity of water came about as the technology regarding golf equipment became so advanced that "normal" hazards that were on links courses turned into nothing like hazards at all.  Even a player at my skill level can normally get out of bunkers in one swing and from time to time I can get kind of close to my objective.  And the PGA guys have, essentially, no issue with bunkers.  Remember the US Open at Pebble?  I forget what hole it was, but the play was to aim for the bunker and get up and down from there.  That is not the idea of a bunker.  A bunker needs to be a hazard, a fearsome obstacle that needs to be avoided.  Now, when I play with my hickories...these "normal" hazards are obstacles that need to be avoided.  They are treacherous.  Getting out in one whack is not a given.  And getting close to the hole is most certainly not a given.  

But like I said, something changed with the technology of the equipment and bunkers are generally not so scary.  And for some reason, if you make the bunkers really deep and nasty...it isn't fair.  If you don't rake the bunkers and leave them in a more natural state, well...that isn't fair either.  So, we give the modern golfer the high tech equipment to get out of the bunkers with the greatest of ease.  We manicure the bunkers to make good lies the norm.  So, what do the golf course architects turn to to defend their courses against the PGA guys and modern technology?  Water hazards.

Some how water is more "fair" than a bunker with a nasty lie and/or a very deep bunker.  Personally, I'd take the 1 in a million chance at recovery vs. the drop in the drop zone shot every day of the week.  Why?  Because the shot that lands in the pond...is a lost ball 100% of the time (unless you are Bill Haas!!).  And at least I've got a chance at getting out of the nasty bunker.   But here is the kicker...okay maybe you can't hit forward out of bunkers like this...



But okay, take your medicine and go backwards.  If you don't take your medicine, you may post a score bigger than your water ball drop score.  But that is your choice...it may not be "fair" to make a 10 on that hole...but at least you had the choice.  With hazards like this...




There is no choice.  Take your drop and move on.


So, in short.  I don't like water because there is no recovery chance.  Perhaps this is the only choice the architect has to tone down the risk taking shots of the PGA pro armed with modern technology...but for guys like me...I'd like a chance at recovery.  And also with water hazards there are no choices regarding how to recover.  You take your drop and that is that.  In a nasty bunker, you have the choice of trying to go forward toward the hole or go backwards or out the side or whatever.  This seems more like the game was meant to be played.  Play your ball as it lies until it is holed out.

But if we have to do water, I prefer creeks to ponds.  In fact, I love this hole and others like it...





That is the angled water carry.  Feeling froggy?  Try to carry this thing out as far as you can and challenge the hole for birdie.  But if it is a windy day and/or you are playing like a dog, take the shorter carry angle and play it safe.  You have choices.

And again, choices.



Hit this par 3 tee shot over the water and go for the green or play it away from the water and up the side.  But I much prefer this hole concept with a bunker (like Kiawah 5) rather than water.

But this...I don't like...





I prefer thing like this...







But that is just my opinion.

« Last Edit: December 10, 2011, 06:30:46 PM by Mac Plumart »
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

jeffwarne

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Re: no water on the course?
« Reply #3 on: December 10, 2011, 06:42:43 PM »
If I had no design constraints I would always design a course with no water in play



Frank,

would it not be dangerous to use the word "always".

Are we going to disqualify #18 at Pebble, #7, #8 and several other holes along the ocean at Pebble?

Is 13 at Augusta  disqualified?

How about #1 at Machrahanish, # 16 at Cypress?
9 and 10 at Dunaverty? I'm sure all of those courses could have avoided water if they had no design constraints.

We all know water has been woefully overused in golf architecture in the last 50 years.

doesn't mean we should let groupthink eliminate many incrdible possibilities.

Goodness, water occurs naturally, bunkers rarely do except in rare linkslike circumstances, yet our courses are polluted with them to a point where nobody even questions them and their ugliness and artificiality ::) ::) ::)
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Ronald Montesano

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Re: no water on the course?
« Reply #4 on: December 10, 2011, 08:25:46 PM »
I think that Mac's 4th picture (the one that he likes) is WAY more unforgiving, penal, watery (whatever) than his 2nd photo (which he does NOT like).

The two holes with water on them that I despise are both 18th holes and both demand a longer iron or short hybrid, from a downhill lie, over a basin/reservoir/tarn ... whatever! One is at Greystone, near Rochester (NY) and the other is (surprise, surprise) the closer at the Boyne Heather course, by Mr. RTJ,SR. Out of fury, I putted along the path on the latter, making 7 after splitting the fairway with my drive, rather than hit ball after ball off that wretched downhill lie, over that doubly-wretched monster bucket.
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

PCCraig

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Re: no water on the course?
« Reply #5 on: December 10, 2011, 08:33:32 PM »
Mac,

Nice post!

I understand where you're coming from, but I think it just depends on the constraints of the site. Sometimes the designer has no choice to work with the water that's already there or there is a need for an irrigation pond....part of the game I suppose.

Unfortuneatley though, many many many golfers love ponds, creeks, rivers, lakes, oceans....the more water the better. In which case reminds us that we're in the very small minority.  :-\
H.P.S.

Mac Plumart

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Re: no water on the course?
« Reply #6 on: December 10, 2011, 08:45:15 PM »
Ron...

the 11th hole at St. Ives (the downhill water carry par 3) is a really bad hole IMO.  No options, no choices, I don't like it at all.  And to boot, that ridge between the pond and the green is sloped towards the pond and shaved.  Shaved tight.  If you are short by a centimeter you are in the water.  The par 3 at PDGCofWV at least has options and choices.  More penal?  Because of the bunker?  I'd disagree, due to the shaved ridge at St. Ives and the bunker long at St. Ives.  Hitting out of that bunker, downhill, to a green with water behind it is no picnic.  But if you disagree on which is more penal...that is fine.  It is tough to argue with the options side of the equation.

Pat...

Agreed.  A  lot of people love the water.  Especially the ocean.  What is funny is that when I played Pacific Dunes and came home and compared pictures of the 13th hole with some non-gca.com friends of mine.  Their photos all had the ocean in them...and mine the dune on the right.



As you allude to, to each their own.
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Ronald Montesano

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Re: no water on the course?
« Reply #7 on: December 10, 2011, 09:14:15 PM »
Mac,

Isn't the St. Ives problem more a result of course conditioning than penal-ness? Eliminate the shaved front of Golden Bell at Augusta and you have a really cool recovery shot (for more than just Fred Couples.)

I remember that hole at Paul's/Pete's Place in WV and remember bailing right, into the sand. I bet you loved this water feature on that course's second hole



Just Kidding...that's looking back at the clubhouse from tee # 1.

Here's the one I meant, hole # 2.



And here's my favorite picture from 2009, Kevin Lynch descending # 2 at PDGC...those wider tracks were made by the West Virginia moose beaver, a rare hybrid quadroped with a wide, flat tail that drags a trail behind...


Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Mac Plumart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: no water on the course?
« Reply #8 on: December 10, 2011, 09:28:16 PM »
Ron...

Yes.  You nailed everything.

Perhaps the St. Ives hole is more of a maintenance issue.

And, yes, I loved #2 at PDGCofWV.

Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

PThomas

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: no water on the course?
« Reply #9 on: December 10, 2011, 10:55:00 PM »
interesting thoughts Mac, thx..

I don't mind water on a golf course...too much of it, that I dont like....i think Shivas' least favorite golf course is Tamarack in suburban Chicago, built on an old farm with no trees so the wind can really blow...and there is water on almost every hole out there!  Almost unplayable in a 25 mph wind..I guess The Medalist in FL has water on almost every hole too (although Pete might not have had a choice wince it was in FL)...I proably wouldnt want to be a member at a place like that with my 10 index...

another questionable use of water:  the last three holes at Bolingbrook golf club in IL, where the last 3 holes on this public facility in IL have water on the right...tlak about a tough finish for the high handicappers who slice!

I do think that water hazards can produce good heroic-style golf holes if done correctly..but I also like the angled hazard as some of your pictures indicate

and I think you are probably the only person whose picture of the 13th at Pac. Dunes DOESNT have the ocean in it!...although I shall admit that the sand dunes on the right are quite impressive...but not as impresive as the ocean and those rocks out there!



199 played, only Augusta National left to play!

Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: no water on the course?
« Reply #10 on: December 11, 2011, 12:02:51 AM »
And then there's the course built on a former fish hatchery...

http://www.golfthunderhill.com/course/

Love the quote "At one time Thunder had nearly 100 water hazards, but in 1997 the course underwent extensive renovations eliminating many water hazards,"

and the humility "Every hole could be the signature hole at any course in Ohio."

I'm sure that Canterbury, Pepper Pike and others are glad to know that they may now replace any one hole with a Thunderhill Holiday Gift.

My favorite might be the double-carry 6th, but I'm still looking...


« Last Edit: December 11, 2011, 12:05:20 AM by Ronald Montesano »
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Frank Pont

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: no water on the course?
« Reply #11 on: December 11, 2011, 01:28:16 AM »
If I had no design constraints I would always design a course with no water in play



Frank,

would it not be dangerous to use the word "always".

Are we going to disqualify #18 at Pebble, #7, #8 and several other holes along the ocean at Pebble?

Is 13 at Augusta  disqualified?

How about #1 at Machrahanish, # 16 at Cypress?
9 and 10 at Dunaverty? I'm sure all of those courses could have avoided water if they had no design constraints.

We all know water has been woefully overused in golf architecture in the last 50 years.

doesn't mean we should let groupthink eliminate many incrdible possibilities.

Goodness, water occurs naturally, bunkers rarely do except in rare linkslike circumstances, yet our courses are polluted with them to a point where nobody even questions them and their ugliness and artificiality ::) ::) ::)

Jeff,

Good question, if one uses water it should be on a diagonal, in such a way that no player has to carry it if they do not have the power or capability to do so. At Swinkelsche we have several holes with water, but none with a forced carry

Almost all the holes you mention fall under this category, for sure Mach 1, Cypress 16 and Augusta 13, need to go back to my Dunaverty pics to check holes 9 and 10

Adam Clayman

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Re: no water on the course?
« Reply #12 on: December 11, 2011, 01:47:22 AM »
Riparians, Like Rae's Creek are water, and are ideal opportunities to use, strategically; Ponds Like the one on the 16th at the same, not so much.
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: no water on the course?
« Reply #13 on: December 11, 2011, 04:11:35 AM »
Water is a good hazard when used sparingly and judiciously.  I prefer diagonal water features, but I am not under the illusion that this is not a penal feature - all features which need to be carried by all players at some point in the hole are by definition penal.  The diagonal aspect tones down the harsh side a bit and emphasizes the strategic aspect of a penal feature as best as can be done.  Usually, if we are talking about providing one course to fit all, the best water hazards are those which the player can totally avoid or have such a short carry that it is virtually meaningless.  If we are talking pros, full, frontal hazards are good because they are exciting for the spectators.  We must remember that pro golf is entertainment and therefore the if an archie/owner believes the course will be used for high profile events than I think its okay to be a bit more liberal with the water.  Hence, Sawgrass gets away with #17 just fine imo.  Thats entertainment and in the end, because of the pro connection I think people enjoy trying to hit the shot.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

jeffwarne

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Re: no water on the course?
« Reply #14 on: December 11, 2011, 08:39:20 AM »
If I had no design constraints I would always design a course with no water in play



Frank,

would it not be dangerous to use the word "always".

Are we going to disqualify #18 at Pebble, #7, #8 and several other holes along the ocean at Pebble?

Is 13 at Augusta  disqualified?

How about #1 at Machrahanish, # 16 at Cypress?
9 and 10 at Dunaverty? I'm sure all of those courses could have avoided water if they had no design constraints.

We all know water has been woefully overused in golf architecture in the last 50 years.

doesn't mean we should let groupthink eliminate many incrdible possibilities.

Goodness, water occurs naturally, bunkers rarely do except in rare linkslike circumstances, yet our courses are polluted with them to a point where nobody even questions them and their ugliness and artificiality ::) ::) ::)

Jeff,

Good question, if one uses water it should be on a diagonal, in such a way that no player has to carry it if they do not have the power or capability to do so. At Swinkelsche we have several holes with water, but none with a forced carry

Almost all the holes you mention fall under this category, for sure Mach 1, Cypress 16 and Augusta 13, need to go back to my Dunaverty pics to check holes 9 and 10

Frank,
I'm with you for the most part.
Again though-always diagonally?
#12 at Augusta while angled diagonally, is at some point a forced carry, albeit only 50 yards if Mrs. Befuvnik laid up.
Do players not occasionally not get a thrill from carrying a water hazard?

#1 at St Andrews is a forced carry over the burn, and I'd venture anyone who can't carry a ball 50 yards over  water, has NO CHANCE of blasting any direction out of a deep bunker or pot bunker or native grass more than 3 inches tall.
Yet our courses are littered with these features.

Variety is the spice of life, and in my opinion, natural features should be used far more than the repetiveness I see on almost all modern designs.
Water could just be one of those features, although I'd like to see more use of broken ground, hollows, ditches, even trees (on certain sites) sandy rough etc.

Palmetto was once the American poster child of such hazards, but formalizing of maintenance,proximity to ANGC, and irrigation changed all this.
The recent restoration, while a great improvement in the formalized bunker areas over 1988 "renovations" did not really address many of these issues in the roughs and broken ground areas once prevelant on holes, 2,4,14,17 and others.(as much as I like sand pros raking "bunkers" 5 yards off the tees)
« Last Edit: December 11, 2011, 09:12:12 AM by jeffwarne »
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Frank Pont

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: no water on the course?
« Reply #15 on: December 11, 2011, 09:42:56 AM »
Jeff,

agree with your points, the water thing is more a personal taste than anything else....

On the water cross hazard ala Augusta 12, I used it on the 7th hole of Turfvaert.
It allows weaker players to bail out on the left, but most players go for the green. (it has the same principle as CP 16, just not the scenery  :) )
Its a difficult hole, especiall since the prevailing wind is from the left.
Funny enough my least favorite hole on the course, but one of the most popular holes of the players.


Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: no water on the course?
« Reply #16 on: December 11, 2011, 06:44:02 PM »
It's too hard to make a recovery shot while submerged in water. You can't even play it out backwards.

As some of you probably recognize, I am set against ponds on courses. They are almost always artificial, and most times unnecessary. I do not mind a small stream on a golf course. They are much easier to miss by accident. Therefore, they seem to me to extract on average about the same penalty as bunkers. Rae's Creek used to be a nice water hazard, but then they dammed it and degraded things. There is nothing wrong with ocean side holes as long as they give you enough room to play away from it. I have yet to see an island green in the ocean, but I suppose one might exist somewhere.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Scott Warren

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Re: no water on the course?
« Reply #17 on: December 11, 2011, 11:53:30 PM »
I can't recall hearing or reading an insight worth learning about golf architecture that contained the words "always" or "never".
« Last Edit: December 12, 2011, 03:54:18 AM by Scott Warren »

Patrick_Mucci

Re: no water on the course?
« Reply #18 on: December 12, 2011, 03:27:31 AM »
Hidden Creek
Winged Foot West (creek)
Sand Hills
Wild Horse
Riviera

Kalen Braley

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Re: no water on the course?
« Reply #19 on: December 12, 2011, 06:31:54 AM »
So i'm looking at Golf Digests list of the top 20 courses in the US.

15 of them have water in play on at least 1 hole or more.

Ronald Montesano

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Re: no water on the course?
« Reply #20 on: December 12, 2011, 06:46:38 AM »
Frank,

Isn't that water cross more similar to #16 at Augusta than #12?
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Mac Plumart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: no water on the course?
« Reply #21 on: December 12, 2011, 07:52:18 AM »
So i'm looking at Golf Digests list of the top 20 courses in the US.

15 of them have water in play on at least 1 hole or more.

Kalen, 1 hole with water is not an issue.  Have you played The Classic Club in Palm Springs?  That, IMO, is a course with too much water.  I just find that water as an over-used hazard makes for less enjoyment on a golf course.
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

jeffwarne

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Re: no water on the course?
« Reply #22 on: December 12, 2011, 08:16:25 AM »
So i'm looking at Golf Digests list of the top 20 courses in the US.

15 of them have water in play on at least 1 hole or more.

Kalen, 1 hole with water is not an issue.  Have you played The Classic Club in Palm Springs?  That, IMO, is a course with too much water.  I just find that water as an over-used hazard makes for less enjoyment on a golf course.


Mac,
No one's defending the crap that passes for golf at many modern /development courses, or the obligatory PGA Tour finish.
Think TPC anywhere or The Bear Crap.
But no water in play as an absolute  design principle(when it's a natural feature and enviromentally sound and feasible) seems an opportunity lost, particularly if the substitute is littering the site with obligatory liberal fake bunkers (no matter how lacy edged ;))


"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Jud_T

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Re: no water on the course?
« Reply #23 on: December 12, 2011, 09:47:25 AM »
How many of your favorite courses have any water in play? A quick glance for me reveals only 2:  Bandon Trails and Lost Dunes
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Shane Wright

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Re: no water on the course?
« Reply #24 on: December 12, 2011, 01:53:57 PM »
How many of your favorite courses have any water in play? A quick glance for me reveals only 2:  Bandon Trails and Lost Dunes

JUD, when I saw this topic, I went back and looked at my top 25 posted to see how many courses had water in play.  It turns out that my list was posted near yours.  You should look at yours again, you'd probably be surprised.  Depending on your definition of "in play" you probably have 15+ courses with water in play on your list. 

I guess I haven't personally considered water "in play" in deciding what courses I like best.  Too much of anything isn't good but there are a lot of incredible golf courses with water in play due to the site and location.