[Steve Scott]

Just throwing one out there:  what is the purpose for a green collar?  Is it necessary to have one?  Is there any course that you know of that transitions from green cut straight to the rough cut and avoids a collar or another height of grass before going right to the rough?

[RDecker]

I can't speak to the historical development of the collar but from a maintenance standpoint it makes it possible to make a pass across the green with a greensmower and lift and turn without scalping into the rough bordering the green.  When you lift a reel mower up after a pass the reels are still turning and would chop into the surrounding turf if it was significantly long.

[Jeff_Mingay]

Steve,

Mr. Decker makes a good point about the green collar relative to maintenance, but I also think the green collar developed as a response to balls rolling up against 2-inches (or more) of grass immediately adjacent to the green - as a buffer between the putting surface and the rough, if that makes sense.

I could be wrong, but if memory serves correctly I think Baltimore Country Club eliminated the collar cut in recent years (might have been another vintage course, but I want to say Baltimore for some reason). Anyone, correct me if I'm wrong. Wherever it was, I wonder how it worked out? Relative to playability around the greens, I bet there was a lot of complaining!

Where I consult, I recommend reducing the collar cut to a width the golf course superintendent is comfortable dealing with (as narrow as possible, that is). This gets the actual putting surface as close as possible to surrounding slopes and hazards... and, it just looks better in my opinion. Especially at vintage courses.

[Andy Stamm]

While I'm not aware of any course that goes straight from green to rough (not that they're not out there), we just saw some areas of no collar at Royal Melbourne. The bunkers that cut into the green do just that, so it's green to bunker with no collar in between.

[Mac Plumart]

Experts check me on this...

But the seamless transition Scott talks about happens, for sure, at Ballyneal and, I think, at The Old Course.

[Anthony_Nysse]

Arcadia Bluffs in MI-no collars

[Wade Whitehead]

Ballyhack has several holes that transition in places straight from green to rough.

Among others, the first (no transition to the right, which is actually the left side of the green):


Ten green (with the eleventh hole in the background), which features no collar almost all the way around:


The double green (13 and 15), with no transition to the left (which is the back of the green):


Every green has a collar somewhere, but most are not completely surrounded by one.  Where a run-up is required there tends to be shorter grass and, in some places, the fairway reaches at least part of the green.

I like the feature because it requires a shot many players don't have (or don't practice), which results when the ball settles against the rough but on the green.  A wedge can't get under the ball and a putter does want to go through the rough.

WW

PS My original photo of one shows the entire green but I can't get PhotoBucket to resize it properly.  Any tips?

[Chris Tritabaugh]

As a superintendent I would say this is really a matter of horses for courses. Classic course with bluegrass rough surrounding their greens will likely look better with a collar. Was at Bandon last week and and none of those courses really present the option of a collar. In most cases the collar is mowed with the same mowers as the approaches. Approach heights are becoming so tight that the appearance of a collar is almost nil in some places. I remember the rules officials at Oakmont in 2007 down on hands and knees trying to determine if a ball was on the collar or green.

IMHO, a classic course looks better with a collar, even a narrow one. We have just transitioned ours from wide, riding mower width, down to 21". Another note is that maintaining quality collars in today's world of rolling, plant growth regulators and ultra low cutting heights, has become increasing difficult. I am guessing you will nary a superintendent who has not battled collar decline in the past few years.

[Mike Nuzzo]

Don and I prefer green to fairway - not rough.

[Mac Plumart]

Wolf Point looks so good it is ridiculous.  I've been staring at these pictures for quite some time.  Thanks Mike!

[Mac Plumart]

My bad...my last post was stupid and, essentially, a thread jack and/or side track.  Mr. Scott, my apologies.

Back to the topic at hand...

To me, collars seem to be more likely to occur on parkland designs rather than links style courses.  As, Chris says, different courses for  different horses.

[Anthony_Nysse]

IMHO, a classic course looks better with a collar, even a narrow one. We have just transitioned ours from wide, riding mower width, down to 21". Another note is that maintaining quality collars in today's world of rolling, plant growth regulators and ultra low cutting heights, has become increasing difficult. I am guessing you will nary a superintendent who has not battled collar decline in the past few years.

Youre not kidding-Turning boards, extra sprays, spot aerification, not rolling into the collar, etc...

[Steve Scott]

My bad...my last post was stupid and, essentially, a thread jack and/or side track.  Mr. Scott, my apologies.

Back to the topic at hand...

To me, collars seem to be more likely to occur on parkland designs rather than links style courses.  As, Chris says, different courses for  different horses.
[/

Mac...not offended by your "thread jack"...I am just happy that people are commenting on my question ....

It appears to me that not having a collar around the green wouldn't be too out of the ordinary...

[RDecker]

Collars have indeed become a huge issue in terms of maintenance.  The most traffic on a golf course occurs at the collar.  They are mown themselves then they get all of the traffic from greens maintenance which on a given day includes mowing, rolling and or spraying.  Additionally they tend to be a bit of a "red headed stepchild" and often don't get all the TLC of the Greens.  Most of the Greens and Surround sprinkler heads are either in or near the collar so the collars sometime get an uneven amount of water, sometimes too much other times too little.  Also the collars tend to have alot of bentgrass encroachment which usually means that turf is healthier at a lower height of cut.

[Bill_McBride]

I'm with Don and Mike at Wolf Point.  My favorite is greens directly transitioned to tightly mown fairway cut.  The Valley Club has become the poster child for this style, with literally acres of tightly mown grass around the greens and out into the fairways, even connecting tees and greens.   You can stand 50 yards out and literally have hald a dozen different shots you can play.   In green side rough there's only one, the "chop" shot.

[Frank Pont]

I'm totally with Mike!

I've seen so many golfcourse pictures sent to me by Joe Bausch (for www.golfarchitecturepictures.com) from the NE USA where the golf holes would be so much better if there would be more not less short grass around the greens.

[Mike_Cocking]

Taking it a step further than just greens into short cut grass, back in 2000 the Old Course had their fairways cut at 6mm and the greens at 5mm.  It essentially played as one large green.  A lot a fun.

[Tim Martin]

I too love the look of the fairway to green transition from the Wolf Point pictures. Nice to truly be able to "use the ground option". 

[Ronald Montesano]

Speaking of horses for courses...

Mike Nuzzo, what does the horse in picture number two think of this topic?

[Alex Miller]

I played a US Am qualifier a couple of years ago at Annandale CC. They did not have a collar for the fairways and greens to 3-4 in. high rough. It worked fine on the fairways and was fair because never was there rough directly behind the golf ball on a shot.

Around the greens however I was not a fan. Multiple times I had the ball roll up against the grass and because of the type of grass the ball was literally underneath the longs stuff. I've bellied a wedge or two before, but this took it to a new level and was an element of maintenance that I felt did not flatter a good design.

[Sean_A]

We are sort of talking sideways.  To me, the collar is important at the front of the green (or the side depending on the access point).  While I much prefer to see seamless transitions between fairway and green I know this isn't a realistic expectation for a great many courses.  One aspect folks have overlooked in the value of a collar is when it can be used as a temp green due to bad weather or maintenance work.  A good collar as a temp isn't much hardship for the golfer and if done well, the bunkers and other trouble around the greens can often still be in play.  I can't understand clubs which go to temps fairly often in the winter not developing good collars.

Ciao

[Steve Scott]

We are sort of talking sideways.  To me, the collar is important at the front of the green (or the side depending on the access point).  While I much prefer to see seamless transitions between fairway and green I know this isn't a realistic expectation for a great many courses.  One aspect folks have overlooked in the value of a collar is when it can be used as a temp green due to bad weather or maintenance work.  A good collar as a temp isn't much hardship for the golfer and if done well, the bunkers and other trouble around the greens can often still be in play.  I can't understand clubs which go to temps fairly often in the winter not developing good collars.

Ciao

Sean,  the collar I am talking about is more the one that rings the green not the approach portion of short grass that one finds as they approach the green...have you seen any courses where this ring of collar on the sides and back of green was absent?

[Sean_A]

We are sort of talking sideways.  To me, the collar is important at the front of the green (or the side depending on the access point).  While I much prefer to see seamless transitions between fairway and green I know this isn't a realistic expectation for a great many courses.  One aspect folks have overlooked in the value of a collar is when it can be used as a temp green due to bad weather or maintenance work.  A good collar as a temp isn't much hardship for the golfer and if done well, the bunkers and other trouble around the greens can often still be in play.  I can't understand clubs which go to temps fairly often in the winter not developing good collars.

Ciao

Sean,  the collar I am talking about is more the one that rings the green not the approach portion of short grass that one finds as they approach the green...have you seen any courses where this ring of collar on the sides and back of green was absent?

Steve

Yes, just a difference in terminology. 

I probably have seen green to rough transition on cheaply maintained courses, but it must be very rare.  As I prefer short grass around greens I don't really like the sound of green to rough. 

Ciao

Ciao

[Mike Nuzzo]

Speaking of horses for courses...
Mike Nuzzo, what does the horse in picture number two think of this topic?

That would be one tall flag or a very big green if it were a horse
Here is demonio on 17 green and diablo on 15 tee
they often hang out in the infierno bunker

[Ben Sims]

This thread has gone off the rails.  No one asked if we "like" a collar between rough and green, or whether there should be rough around a green.  The green to surrounds transitions at Bandon, Ballyneal and Wolf Point are all a function of the architecture and desired playing characteristics.  They are my favorite transitions in golf, but they have their place.  Not every golf course should keep all of their green surrounds at fairway cut.  Some courses are great that way, but not all. 

The reason many greens have a transition is due mostly to two things 1)  It's easier to mow the green surface without a cleanup cut if there is a collar.  Not doing a cleanup cut every single day keep the dreaded "ring" from developing on the outer edge of the green.  It increases the margin for error on mowing, and all apps you put into the turf.  2) It keeps balls from rolling up against a sharp 0.12 green to 2 inch rough transition. 

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