[Mike Vegis @ Kiawah]

Golf Digest named The Ocean Course as America's Toughest Golf Course again in their January 2012 issue.  Do y'all think it deserves that ranking?  Everything is in plain sight.  The trouble is right there in front of you - nothing hidden.  Sure, on a windy day it's a bit of a pisser, but I've played harder.  What do y'all think?  Here's their 10 hardest

1. The Ocean Course
2. Pine Valley
3. Oakmont
4. Spyglass Hill
5. Bethpage Black
6. Whistling Straits (which I think is harder than The Ocean Course)
7. TPC Sawgrass
8. PGA West
9. Winged Foot West
10. Pinehurst No. 2

[Kalen Braley]

I'd be interested for Jim Franklin or Andy T to chime in and see thier thoughts on whether Idaho Club belongs on that list.  While I haven't played any of those courses, IC is easily the biggest butt kicker I've ever played!

[Mike Hendren]

Surprised to see Cypress Point Club and National Golf Links of America on that list.

Bogey

[Niall C]

Mike

I take it you think it unfair ? The fact that the trouble is all in front of you as you say, do you think that makes any difference as to how it should be viewed ?

Niall

[PCCraig]

Mike,

It depends on what tees you play it from, in my opinion. From the tippy-tips it would be pretty darn hard (even before you factor in wind) because the greens are pretty small and elevated, making for hard up and downs which come in droves there when you're not hitting your long irons well. If it's played from a more "up" set of tees, and you can hit more short irons to the greens, it becomes much more playable and birdies aren't out of the equation.

All things even (wind, weather, length, etc...) I would say PV, Oakmont, and Bethpage play harder as I think those are more severe from tee to green. The Ocean Course is really pretty wide off the tee.

[Jason Topp]

I would bet the average golfer struggles more to shoot a score at the Plantation Course than at The Ocean Course.  Of course, it all depends on the tees you choose and the weather that day.  Perhaps a "yard for yard" list would be the best way to compare. 

[Joel Zuckerman]

Unlike Kalen, I have played them all, and think that PGA West, PV, Oakmont and Bethpage Black are in the same category of difficulty as TOC.  it would be hard to say one or the other is that much harder than the others.

The other 5 are just a small notch below in terms of difficulty IMO, but still all you would care to tangle with any given day.

[Jud_T]

I'd think Butler National is harder than many of these courses from the tips...

[Sean Leary]

I have played 5 of the 10 as a mid single digit capper. PV, PGA West and Spyglass get overrated as hard IMO but TOC and WS are kick you in the jimmies hard...

[Greg Clark]

Blackwolf Run River is quite a bit harder than the Straits course IMO.  In fact, I'm not so sure the Irish course isn't harder as well.  I find the Straits course to be quite playable.

[Jim Franklin]

I played them all and voted for Oakmont as #1. The Ocean Course was in my top 5 hardest as the 3 times I have been there, the wind has blown steady upper teens plus all day.

Idaho Club was in my top 10 too.

[Rick Shefchik]

The only one I've played on that list was Spyglass. I didn't have any idea I was playing the 4th toughest course in America. I thought I'd played tougher courses in Minnesota.

Maybe I could handle the Ocean Course with less than three sleeves of balls.

[jeffwarne]

Mike,

It depends on what tees you play it from, in my opinion. From the tippy-tips it would be pretty darn hard (even before you factor in wind) because the greens are pretty small and elevated, making for hard up and downs which come in droves there when you're not hitting your long irons well. If it's played from a more "up" set of tees, and you can hit more short irons to the greens, it becomes much more playable and birdies aren't out of the equation.

All things even (wind, weather, length, etc...) I would say PV, Oakmont, and Bethpage play harder as I think those are more severe from tee to green. The Ocean Course is really pretty wide off the tee.

Oakmont and Bethpage are hard.
But they're not lose your ball hard, then lose another after a drop hard-hole after hole.
Particularly in the wind.

TOC has that in spades as does WS.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Golf Digest named The Ocean Course as America's Toughest Golf Course again in their January 2012 issue.  Do y'all think it deserves that ranking?  Everything is in plain sight.  The trouble is right there in front of you - nothing hidden.  Sure, on a windy day it's a bit of a pisser, but I've played harder.  What do y'all think?  Here's their 10 hardest

1. The Ocean Course
2. Pine Valley
3. Oakmont
4. Spyglass Hill
5. Bethpage Black
6. Whistling Straits (which I think is harder than The Ocean Course)
7. TPC Sawgrass
8. PGA West
9. Winged Foot West
10. Pinehurst No. 2

Mike,

PV's generous fairways make it playable for low, mid and high handicappers.
While big numbers can loom, Oakmont, with narrow fairways and deep bunkers in close proximity, along with the pace of their greens would seem more difficult.

I wonder, if Bethpage, WFW and P#2 all had their fairways returned to pre-Open widths, where they'd rank.

What happened to Oak Tree ?

Spyglass ?

Do they indicate from which tees these rankings are determined ?

[Sean Leary]

Mike,

It depends on what tees you play it from, in my opinion. From the tippy-tips it would be pretty darn hard (even before you factor in wind) because the greens are pretty small and elevated, making for hard up and downs which come in droves there when you're not hitting your long irons well. If it's played from a more "up" set of tees, and you can hit more short irons to the greens, it becomes much more playable and birdies aren't out of the equation.

All things even (wind, weather, length, etc...) I would say PV, Oakmont, and Bethpage play harder as I think those are more severe from tee to green. The Ocean Course is really pretty wide off the tee.

Oakmont and Bethpage are hard.
But they're not lose your ball hard, then lose another after a drop hard-hole after hole.
Particularly in the wind.

TOC has that in spades as does WS.

I agree with the the two types of hard. Lose a lot of balls hard and not lose many balls hard. Some of it is handicap related but some isn't.

[Andy Troeger]

In my opinion, if you truly were going to rank courses solely based on difficulty, most of the ones at the "top" of that list wouldn't be the greats, with a few exceptions. Pine Valley has to be up there, and while I haven't played it I would think Oakmont does too. A lot of these other ones, like Pinehurst and Spyglass, are hard but nowhere close to "hardest" level. Cypress Point and NGLA shouldn't have even been candidates for "hardest."

I don't remember which courses I nominated exactly, but I know I went to my spreadsheet and picked out all the courses with 155 slopes and listed them first--so I must have included Pine Valley, TPC Sawgrass, Oak Tree National, Promontory Nicklaus, The Concession, Conservatory at Hammock Beach, and Rich Harvest Links. I believe Butler National, Cog Hill, and Wolf Run rounded out my top ten. Dye's courses are also reasonable selections. I think The Honors is as tough as any of them, but Whistling Straits is a reasonable selection as well. Idaho Club was considered but didn't make top ten hardest mainly because the tip slope was ONLY 148. Blackwolf Run has been extended since my visit, but I found it more reasonable from a middle yardage than some of the others.

Hard, IMO, has very little correlation with good. Some of those courses listed are ones I'd love to see anytime, but others I'm not in any hurry to get back to. Haven't played Ocean Course yet, so not sure where it should fall.

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

From my playing experience in tournaments, I have not come across anywhere tougher than Oak Hill at the Williams 4 ball...a real brute from all the back tees.
I agree with Mike, the softened Kiawah is very playbale...tough indeed but not the tough test ...perhaps even unfair test,it once was.

[Kevin Lynch]

I agree with the the two types of hard. Lose a lot of balls hard and not lose many balls hard. Some of it is handicap related but some isn't.

Exactly - it's the difference between annoying and challenging. 

I'm not the straightest player in the world, and was scared to death when first invited to Oakmont.  But in 2 rounds there, I didn't even come close to losing a ball.

If you can make the "Toughest List" without making the "Most Annoying List," you're in pretty good shape.

[jeffwarne]

From my playing experience in tournaments, I have not come across anywhere tougher than Oak Hill at the Williams 4 ball...a real brute from all the back tees.
I agree with Mike, the softened Kiawah is very playbale...tough indeed but not the tough test ...perhaps even unfair test,it once was.

If we're talking "all the back tees", it's going to be no contest for TOC.
The back tees were 7700 yards in 1990 when I first played it. (they weren't designed to be used all at once)
I can't imagine Pete hasn't added a few more

"Back tees" at a modern monster eliminate almost all but touring pros from playing a decent round.

[Carl Nichols]

All things even (wind, weather, length, etc...) I would say PV, Oakmont, and Bethpage play harder as I think those are more severe from tee to green. The Ocean Course is really pretty wide off the tee.

I wonder whether you'd want to hold wind/weather constant on this, since the prevailing weather should be something that the designer considers.  In other words, if there's a course that's windy practically every day, why not judge the difficulty of the course under those normal conditions, rather than a non-windy day?

[Howard Riefs]

If being viewed as “toughest course” is a negative, doesn’t setting up TOC with 'PGA Championship conditions' for public play this past August run counter to that? 

Every serious golfer has asked the question - how would my game hold up playing a top course set up in major championship conditions?  In a dry run for the 2012 PGA Championship, this August Kiawah Island Golf Resort will set up The Ocean Course just like it will be in August 2012 - a mind-numbing 7,606 yards of wind, dunes, marsh and water with firm, lighting-fast greens, the same rough lines and rough lengths as the pros will face in 2012.
http://staging.thegolfchannel.com/travel-caddie/kiawah-offers-chance-play-pga-championship-setup-41185/


Among other courses, I was surprised to see that Tobacco Road didn’t make the list. From the tips:

Slope:   150
Rating:  73.2
Yards:   6,554

[Jud_T]

According to the NY Times, for the scratch golfer the only course that has a higher rating from the tips than Butler (78.1) is the Blessings at Clear Creek (79.2).

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

From my playing experience in tournaments, I have not come across anywhere tougher than Oak Hill at the Williams 4 ball...a real brute from all the back tees.
I agree with Mike, the softened Kiawah is very playbale...tough indeed but not the tough test ...perhaps even unfair test,it once was.

If we're talking "all the back tees", it's going to be no contest for TOC.
The back tees were 7700 yards in 1990 when I first played it. (they weren't designed to be used all at once)
I can't imagine Pete hasn't added a few more

"Back tees" at a modern monster eliminate almost all but touring pros from playing a decent round.

At least I can reach the greens on the par fours at TOC..atOak Hill I can do that...even reaching the corner at #17 from the tips is difficult and then there is still 270 to go!!!
I played toc from the tips in December, and thought it was very difficult, but not as tought as Oak Hill, but agree one was in a tourney and one was for fun...ta
hat always makes a difference

[Kevin Lynch]

Among other courses, I was surprised to see that Tobacco Road didn’t make the list. From the tips:

Slope:   150
Rating:  73.2
Yards:   6,554

Tobacco Road used to be on a number of such lists, but I think TR's toughness is drastically over-rated.  It is visually intimidating for sure and blind shots will scare most people, but the actual shots demanded are not onerous at all.  Most mishits will find fairly firm sand from which you can play a recovery shot (as opposed to knee-high grass or water).

One omission I can think of is Ballyhack (7,294; CR 76.6; SR 155), but it appears this list is populated solely by well-known courses, primarily by virtue of hosting professional events. 

[Mark Johnson]

From my perspective


Overrated (not as hard)
- Bethpage Black (long and penal) but lots of easy bogey/hard par holes
- Sawgrass



Underrated (much harder)

- Butler, for all reason stated above
- Honors Course-- Tiger shot 80 there,  nuf said
- Purgatory, incredible stiff ball striking test
-  Dye at French Lick -- toughest driving course i've ever seen
-



In terms of the Ocean course, the X factor is wind.    Played it three times and there was 30 mph or more wind every time.   With no wind, probably not top 15, but have

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