Ravenwood GC Tour-R.Nelson-near Rochester, NY Entire Course Profiled

[Ronald Montesano]

We need to get Herrmann back up to his native WNY to see these courses:

Ravenwood
Mill Creek
Greystone
Diamond Hawk
Harvest Hill
Ironwood
Hickory Stick
Ivy Ridge
Arrowhead

None of them existed when he was learning the auld gayme at Sheridan Park.

[Ronald Montesano]

Hole # 7...Par 4...329/318/282/250/228

The seventh is a hole that grows grander with each playing. It is not presumptuous to call it the Ravenwood version of Riviera's 10th. To begin, the hole moves uphill from a tee that is pointed directly at the green, to a fairway that moves away from the green, up and to the southwest/right. A pair of bunkers, including a typically-Nelson "Kilroy" bunker (with the grass nose bisecting the trap) block the direct route to the putting surface, although a following wind and a strong swinger might loft the ball over the sand and have a run at the green. A well-played drive moves out to the right, allowing for a good angle into the green. Unless one flirts with the drive-one bunkers on the left, one will have to deal with the right-side green bunkers on the approach. The green itself is 1.5 clubs deep, profound enough to stop any iron with relative ease. The putting surface could use a bit more movement, especially given its size, relative to hole length, as well as the short hole length. The hole sits in front of you, both strategies quite evident, nothing hidden. Risk too much on the drive and your recovery is tricky. Go at a front-cut pin on the approach and your save is most challenging. As at Rivera, eschew the heroic play and keep it between the lines, take 4, go on to #8.

 
Tee Shot, Close


Tee shot, Deep


From left side of fairway, below bunkers, blind to green


Shot from middle of fairway, about 70 yards out


Shot from behind green

[Dan Herrmann]

Ron - I agree - I need to get up there sometime to play some golf. ( Right now, Rochester visits are more eldercare-centered)

[Kevin Lynch]

#2 - I'm really polarized by this hole - here Kevin John & Ron talk about the strategy I can see it, but I can't embrace it fully. I find too many faults in the hole that , to me (and it's just my opinion) should have been better done.

- I get why the FW bunkers are there to define the stratetgy and make you execute the layup - just don't like them as the penalty to the higher hdcp will be tough by hitting in there

- While the hole appears drivable - I don't think you can put the ball on the green given the bunker set up and the cant of the FW

- the green slopes away from the top right to bottom left so an approach from the right (preferred?) will be very tough to stop the ball with the pin front right.

- A tee shot played left will run into a shallow green approaching from that side. Nothing wrong with that just the bunker long from that play leaves a very tough up & down.

- That catch basin in that spot is just bad - I get you need to drain the water there, but that function seems to define the green and I just think it could have been done better. How about wrap the green furhter left and forward. Eliminate the swale keep the fron bunker and alow a bounce in from the left. Not sure how that area would drain though.

- Not a fan of a drivable (or close to) falling this early in the routing - the hole feels forced into that slot. I think there are better routing options on the front that would be better.

Again I get the strategy, just not a fan

# 3 - Not a fan of artificial water hazards on a course so immediately not a big fan, but if you can get it out of your head and play a smart shot - the hole becomes much easier. As Ron says it's not too long and a solid drive leaves you a short iron it. The green is one of the betters with the mound bleeding into the green defining the putting surface. As water holes go , I like this one and thought it was well done.

John,

I don’t disagree that the shaping near the green could have been modified a little to help make it more drivable, but I still think it’s a pretty good hole as is.  I don’t mind the sloping from front right to back left.  After all, it is only 300 & change, so you should be able to get some loft, even to a front right pin.

When the pin is back left, there is an advantage for flirting with the right side, as the green will become deeper and shots will feed to that pin position.  From the left, the green is so shallow that it’s a very difficult approach. 

You had put “preferred” with a question mark, which I think actually is one of the strengths of the hole.  There really isn’t one preferred approach, depending on the pin location, wind, or your own personal strengths / weaknesses.  There are many different ways to play the hole and trade-offs for each option.

As for #3, I can do without water on just about any course, but there is ample room to play away, so I don’t mind this hole.  The green is interesting, which gives it some value, but it’s not a hole I would miss if it weren’t there.

[Kevin Lynch]

Ron has done a pretty good job summarizing the next few holes, so I don't have too much to add. 

#4 - Nothing spectacular, but I hadn't really appreciated the segmenting of the green surface (not really noticeable from the tee).

#5 - One of my favorites, as I tend to enjoy "over the rise" tee shots and horizon greens.  The "potency" of the green seems to have escaped me, but perhaps Ron has a better sense for these things.  However, given the climb up to the surface, there was no need to add "easy 3 putt" to the equation.

#6 - As a "wannabe swashbuckler,"  an enjoyable hole which tempts the heroic 2nd shot.  Of course, when the driver meets the ball near the Tropic of Cancer, you lose a little bit of your swagger.

[Kevin Lynch]

#7 - version of Riviera's 10th?  Were you just testing to see if anyone else was reading?  I'm not seeing it, and the green is way too benign to ever consider it in the company of an elite hole.

Since the green is so large and has no significant slope from right to left, there really is no increase in difficulty for bailing out well right.  Sure, the right bunker is there, but given the depth and flatness of the green, there is no need to flirt with it.  Ultimately, if someone tempts the bunker to take the direct line, there is minimal (if any) advantage gained, which diminishes the hole in my eyes. 

The first time I played it, I hit a horrendous block.  When I found my ball, I was surprised that my only "punishment" was that my approach was a little longer.  I didn't even consider the bunker and fired at the pin, just as I would have from a well-executed drive.

After seeing the bold green and myriad of options designed on the short 2nd, this hole pales in comparison.  The 7th strikes me as a lost opportunity.

[John Shimony]

The one time I played this hole I liked the options it afforded off the tee but I see how one could say the green and its surroundings lack the interest of the second hole.  I too blocked my drive way right practically on the driving range and if I recall I had a great look at the back right hole location.  But I assume a good drive over the bunkers that settles in the swale on the left edge of the fairway would give the player an easy pitch up the length of the green to any pin position.

[Ronald Montesano]

Given that Dan Jenkins was just voted into the WGHOF by a jury of his lessers (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,50502.0.html), it seems only fitting that I dedicate this particular hole review to the fecund Fortworthian, so strap in for something between slim and none, Goathillyards~

Hole # 8...Par 3...160/137/122/117/88

Someone forgot to tell Robin Nelson that the bun is supposed to outsize the burger.



Planted for a moment on the 8th tee at Ravenwood, it is immediately apparent to even the trained eye that the meat that is the putting surface extends beyond the rightful limits of the unnaturally round roll, or bunkers, that besiege the patty with little more threat  or security than fringe on a doily...



Truth be told if it must, the 8th green at Ravenwood appears to be impossible to miss, like a broken-hearted, retired prude on a sweltering Saturday night of an aging summer. It's that big around and side to side. And yet, the architect Nelson must have had something more dangerous than a card or two up his sleeve when he directed the troops to lay the hole there. For Chrissakes, the hole tops out at less than 500 feet! Home runs from slim-wristed minor-leaguers have been hit farther than that. Terry-Clyde Cracksocket, product of a failed marriage and successful divorse, once hocked a leaf-fueled loogie that nearly eclipsed that measurement...



And what it turned out to be, after a pause, is a conspiracy of collaborators from all viral strains of architectural conspiracy. The green is not quite deep enough to hold the purely-struck shot with the extra club that you took to get over the ravine that could claim no more than an underfed coward of uncertain origin and disreputable stock. Although it looks plenty wide, the builder sighted it below a corridor of zephyrs that take no greater pleasure than encouraging sideways spin on the ball, caressing the orb toward the rough on one or the other side of the semi-circular target. In other words, no single aspect of the hole will raise the alarm from the tee, while each of many will contribute to the bogey or worse that leaves you shaking your head, the loser of Ronmnian proportions in a winnable debate.

[Ronald Montesano]

Hole # 9...Par 5...568/536/498/453/414

The ninth hole runs parallel to the 18th, also a three-shot hole. Both are memorable journeys. #9 is a decided dogleg left, while #18 eases gently to the right. The tee ball on the home hole of the outward nine avoids a crop of bunkers on the inside/left corner, without straying too far to the right (a mistake that would make the second shot much longer and challenging. After a gentle rise to the landing area, the golfer turns to starboard and sees an elevated green site that demands an extra club or two on the approaches.
The green can be quite challenging if speeds are up, as enough undulation is present to push recoveries from either side away from the hole.
 
Tee Shot from back


Tee shot from close


Second shot from right edge of fairway


Second shot from fairway middle


Third shot from right edge of fairway, about 85 yards out


Third shot from right fairway bunker


Looking back from hill behind green

[Ronald Montesano]

Despite the dearth of commentary from the upstate crew, on we march to the back nine of Ravenwood...

[Ronald Montesano]

Hole # 10...Par 4...432/413/381/359/328

The departure bombs out again from the same hilltop, albeit eastward this time. Kudos to Nelson for not reversing the nines, as this hole would face into the sun every morning for the green zambonis. The left side of #10 contains cart parth and 9th fairway (plus bunkers) but no tall grass. The right side has a fat swath of manageable rough, followed by the secondary stuff with which you build huts. Two fairway bunkers grace the right side staging area, yet are at least ten yards into the rough, making them "Roughway bunkers." I know that threads have been devoted to the question "Why are fairway bunkers in the rough?" Here is a prime example where the fairway could be cut up to the bunkers, leaving an interesting feature. My guess is, the average golfer prefers the light rough to the fairway, as the ball sits up better, allowing for the sweep or pick. The second shot ascends a slope to a green that neighbors the 9th tee. Similar to #1 in that you get away without much fanfare, risk or reward, on a solid and unspectacular hole. A false-ish front to the green does add some excitement, I'll admit.
 
Tee Shot


Tee shot deeper up fairway


"Roughway Bunker" focus


Shot from left side of fairway, about 200 paces away


Shot into green from left center, 150 skips out


Shot from fairway center, about 75 bounds distant~false front comes into view


Shot from behind green, false front evident

[Ronald Montesano]

Hole # 11...Par 4...419/375/328/274/218

In my estimation, the most fun par four on the course. The feeling on the tee is one of absolute confidence. The fairway bunker is but a spec on the way to the green, says the Giant! Number 11 feels like the antithesis of the Skyline Green~~the hole is completely in front of you, all danger and safety in view and no better run at birdie awaits. After a nice drive, no more than short iron from all but the back tees remains. As you progress up the fairway, however, you realize that the bunker is the best-place hazard on the course. It sits directly in line with the green from the tee, and dares you to risk its carry (which is completely not needed!) Much fairway expanse rests off to the left. Now, on to the putting surface. The green has few inaccesible locations, but one is the flag that we faced in the photo. Back and way left, it dared you to go at it and bound long.
 
Tee Shot


Tee shot deeper up fairway


The approach from fairway center, a bit shy of 150 yards


Fairway center, closer


From behind

[Ronald Montesano]

Hole # 12...Par 5...595/569/543/523/492

The traveler's golf hole. The twelfth extends forever, uphill and at a tilt. Never constricted, always offers the opportunity to belt the ball which, given its extension, is nicely afforded. Decent green, much like the others, at the end. By this time, you might be getting sick of these greens.

 
Tee Shot


Tee shot farther up fairway


Second shot from left side of fairway


Second shot farther up...first bunkers on left are 150 out from green~second bunkers front the green.


Fairway bunker set on left, Close-Up


Approach from 150~Would be a skyline if trees behind were gone.


Wedge from right side of fairway


Green from behind.

[JNC Lyon]

Wait, why did the guys in front of us need three carts for four people?

[Ronald Montesano]

If I had my way, we'd have four carts for four people, plus one more for my camera equipment, so there!

[Ronald Montesano]

Hole # 13...Par 4...447/430/402/364/333

The third of the out-and-down tee balls at Ravenwood is played to an ample landing area. A familiar fairway-bunker obstacle awaits, this time on the right side of the approach zone. The proper play, then, is up the left, with a caution. The angle in is conducive only to a full-flight approach. The swale in front of the green works better for approaches from the right (where the sand and a cluster of unnecessary fir trees await.) The approach is one of pure joy through options. A mound/grass bunker combination protect the left front, leaving a fairly open (rough cut) right side. The green sits elevated above the swale and has sufficient depth to accept shots hit in with longer clubs.

 
Tee Shot


Tee shot deeper up fairway


Approach from 200 out, right side. Green hidden in swale below fairway


Run-Up to green, about 50 yards out, right edge


Fifteen yards short of green on right

[Ronald Montesano]

Hole # 14...Par 3...167/152/138/119/74

Nelson favored all-or-nothing hazards on his par three holes at Ravenwood. Beyond the benign 4th, each of the subsequent ones forces a carry over certain death. 14 is no exception. The first time I played Ravenwood, this failing stuck in my craw and has remained there ever since. For a course that emphasizes the Feng and the Shui, to have 1/6 of its holes be so penal is very out of character and inconsistent. I guess I can say that the green is somewhat interesting, but I have no enthusiasm for this hole.

 
A Look From The 13th Green


A Look From Short Left Chipping Area


View From Back Left


Close Up From Back Left That Emphasizes Diagonal Ridge

[Ronald Montesano]

Hole # 15...Par 4...446/377/352/343/303

A flawless and natural golf hole. This one could be enjoyed from each tee deck, and should be, again and again. The drive is fraught with a sprinkle of peril, with some trees to the left and some rough to the right. The tee ball descends a bit to a fairway that turns a bit left, then consciously uphill to the green. I don't know if Nelson took a page out of the William Harries book of architecture and forgot to make his greens interesting, but the knock on the Ravenwood putting surfaces is confirmed on this one. They aren't bad; they just aren't ever memorable. From tee to green, though, this hole is perfect.

 
Tee Shot from Back Deck


Tee shot from Forward Deck


Approach shot from fairway bottom


Approach shot, zoomed in


Shot from behind green

[Ronald Montesano]

Hole # 16...Par 4...343/318/298/262/222

More of a mid-length par four than a shortie, as the second shot plays straight uphill. Would be an interesting hole as a long par three from the most forward of decks. Shots from the tee tend to get killed in the lower half of the hourglass fairway, leaving a short iron in. The green could have/should have been a blind punch bowl, but isn't. Oh, wait, I've been complaining about the greens for the entire thread...why stop now? Again, to rerereiterate, not a bad green, just not the memorable one it might have been. I am a fan of this hole and consider it and 15 to be my two favorite par fours on the course. Yes, I did like #2 and #13, but not nearly as much as I love #15 and really like #16.

 
Tee Shot from Very Deep


Tee shot from Forward Deck


Skyline green effect from fairway (bad lighting)


Shot back from high above green


Shot back from front of green...Better look at hole

[Ronald Montesano]

Let's get this puppy finished. Lack of interest means either my work is uninteresting or it just ain't in the cards.

Hole # 17...Par 3...210/182/176/162/125

The penulty (not penalty) is a signatureish hole, a downhill toss to a green angle from front left to back right. We had the easiest pin location and had a few runs at birdie. This type of hole is impossible to avoid as an architect, I imagine. Owner says (doesn't ask) "what do you mean, we're not building it!" and archie must relent. It's nice, but it has been done before. The par threes, in my estimation, are mundane on this golf course (that or I'm jaded.) Sorry, Robin.

 
Tee Shot From On High


Tee shot From Lower (those dudes actually hunted for a ball some 20 yards topped off the tee!)


Shot from green level (not a tee)


Shot from green level, closer (neither a tee)


Shot from behind green



Hole # 18...Par 5...569/506/488/448/419

As commonplace as the one-shot holes are from my perspective, the three-shotters are positively inspired. None is similar in any way to any other. The commonality is uphill...9, 12 and 18 all play uphill. 9 bends left, 12 is straight, 18 bends right...dissimilar. 9 and 18 greens are sited 40 yards from each other, on the same bluff, yet they play as completely different holes...enough elation, on to description. A downhill drive to a fair and flat landing area, then across a marsh strip to an uphill landing area, on to a green tabled into the hillside below the clubby. Visually enjoyable, architecturally sound, a complete finish to an enjoyable round of golf.

 
The Whole Hole


Tee shot should be placed up left edge, but anywhere 'twixt bunkers will do


Shot from drive zone on left, crossing marsh hazard visible, green on hill


Deeper close-up from left side of fairway


Another left-side angle


Don't miss green way left (one of us did!)


Backside of green


Hopefully, my next thread will call forth a bit more interest from the denizens...Happy New Year!

[Brad Tufts]

Thanks for the tour Ron, as I have driven by this one many times going back and forth through WNY.

I have to say that while it doesn't look bad, it doesn't strike me as particularly exciting either.  I played Harvest Hill in October, and felt the same way.  Not bad, just not really exciting in any way.  And very wide.

Is Hickory Stick any good?  Anyone played Timber Banks?

[Ronald Montesano]

Brad,
I've played all four and it is quite interesting that you tie them together...they all invoke similar feelings. Their terrain is not particularly inspiring, so they have to make due with maneuvering and bunkering.

All four have wetland presence, Timber Banks the most. I think that Timber Banks is the most audacious of the four (I'm told that Nicklaus never set foot on the property, not even for the opening.) I like all of them, but none would ever be confused with a golden-age course.

Here are my Timber Banks images:  http://s46.photobucket.com/albums/f140/buffalogolfer/Timber%20Banks/

My Harvest Hill images:  http://s46.photobucket.com/albums/f140/buffalogolfer/Harvest%20Hill/

My Hickory Stick photos: http://s46.photobucket.com/albums/f140/buffalogolfer/Hickory%20Stick/

I'm having a bit of trouble collecting my thoughts, so I will conclude with this...you'll not be disappointed by any of the four. You might fall in love or like with half of the holes on each course and make a return trip.

[Mark Saltzman]

Ron, sorry this thread didn't get much attention, I guess not many have played Ravenwood.

I played this past weekend and have a few comments.

First, re the 'big 3' of Rochester public golf, I'd have Mill Creek comfortably first and Ravenwood and Greystone battling it out for second.  I've read everything John Lyon had to say about Mill Creek and wonder if I may be in the same boat as him -- extremely impressed the first go 'round but that feeling would lessen over time.  Really don't know if that's true, but based on one play I thought Mill Creek was excellent.

Anyways, on to Ravenwood.  Y'all keep commenting on the genius of the routing.  Really?  Aside from the second hole, it seems every hole is routed up-and-down the elevation change; nothing playing across it.  And playing a flat/downhill tee shot to an elevated green got awfully repetitive by the end of the round.  How many times was that? At 1, 7, 9, 10, 14, 15, 18.

Onto the common criticism, the flatness of the greens.  I agree.

A few hole-by-hole thoughts.

1: An excellent opener.

2: What is the normal wind direction here? It played into a healthy breeze the day I played, thus eliminating some of the strategy.  I don't know why the left portion of the green has that swale there.  Would love to see the option of shots played to the left running all the way onto the green, not into that collection area.

3: Interesting choice (like at 1) to favor an approach from the outside of the dogleg.  I don't think it works as well as it does at number because of the penalty for missing to the inside of the dogleg.  One of the better greens on the golf course with that massive hump in its centre.

4: Yawn.

5: You guys praised it, I hated it.  Mowing lines are a major issue.  The anti-strategic bunkering is awful.  If there is any hole on the course that begs for an open green front this is it, but, unfortunately, much of the front of the green is bunkered.  Ron, you really three-putted this green.  I didn't see much happening there.

6: A good hole but for that tree.  Why not trust the strategic design (the approach from the left is much more difficult) rather than force a penalty on a golfer that finds the left side of the penalty.

7: An opportunity missed for a wild green.  As a pea-shooter I found the lack of an alternate route a bit disappointing but for longer hitters this is a very good hole.

8: Really?

9: Well I guess that's one way to get all the way back up to the clubhouse. A good hole, though.

10/11: out-and-back.  Both are fine and both will be forgotten immediately.

12: Holy crap what a beast of a hole.  Playing into the wind my three playing partners had zero chance to reach the green in 3.  OK, a couple of things.  What is the story with the nest of bunkers down the left on the approach?  Does this normally play downwind? I think this is one of those less is more situations.  And, I really dislike the front green side bunker.  Another hole where I felt running the ball onto the green should be an available option.  And then to have the green slope away from the tee (first one on the course, I think) on a green that must be approached from the air and an approach that will be with a longer club for many... well, it just didn't make sense to me.

13: Excellent

14: I guess par-3 design is not Nelson's strength.

15: The hole works better in the spring, Ron.  When those trees grow leaves and start encroaching on the fairway it is not so appealing a tee shot.  Another green that slopes away and another poor choice of holes to do that on.

16: One of the best greens on the course and an interesting approach, but something of a thoughtless tee shot, no? Also, why isn't that fairway mowed back closer to the carry hazard?

17: Pretty and over bunkered.

18: Pretty and over bunkered, especially in the DZ on the tee shot. 

Overall: A Doak 4.

Comments?

[Ronald Montesano]

 

Overall: A Doak 4.

Comments?

They love Nelson in the far east.

Having played two rounds with MS, I trust his judgement. Ravenwood gets less and less interesting with each playing. I concur.

[Philip Caccamise]

Ron - I agree - I need to get up there sometime to play some golf. ( Right now, Rochester visits are more eldercare-centered)

Dan- OT, but are you involved in eldercare? My father is one of the most well known people in the industry (and is based in Rochester.)

On topic, I agree Ravenwood as about a Doak 4. Gets a lot more praise than I would give. A solid enjoyable round of golf? Yes, but a place I long to get to? Far from it.