[PThomas]

I am more with Andy on this one.  I thought Dormie was really, really good and I thought the routing was great except for one spot. However, I think #2 is one of the truly great courses.  So I'm probably 7 to 3 in favor of #2 in terms of the ten play split.

7-3 split sounds good to me to Mac

[Mark Saltzman]

Jim,
I've been posting some on the other thread. I'd play Dormie 7-3 over #2 given 10 more rounds. Both are very good though.

I'm not convinced by this "walking around/disjointed" argument. I went back through my photos. By what I can see on the photos and what I remember, holes #1, 3, 4, 6, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 16, and 18 allow the golfer to walk straight to the ball through scrubby areas. That's 11 of the 18 holes to start with where to me there's nothing to discuss. Of the remaining seven holes, #2, 7, 9, and 15 require that the golfer take a longer walking route around wetlands, but the golfer on these holes NEVER loses sight of the hole itself and never even gets to the treeline on the walk. That leaves only #5, 8, and 17 that could seem a bit disjointed as far as individual holes. #17 to me is a short walk through a few trees that still allows the golfer to see the hole; #5 is a walk around the pond/lake where visibility is lost, and #8 is a walk through the woods for a bit where I think visibility probably was lost for awhile. I think knocking the course significantly for that is a bit silly, personally. 

I do agree the walk from #6 green to #7 tee is a bit strange, but no worse than I've seen a number of other courses. Crystal Downs #11 to 12 is a bit awkward too, but nobody seems to mind as its a pleasant walk in the woods. I see this in a similar fashion. I do think the course has a few too many holes that turn left--certainly doesn't help with variety. #17 is one of the best par fives I've ever seen, and #10 is really good too.

Andy,

Very good post.

The first point I should make is that I probably know nothing about what a good routing is.  Tom Doak has made it clear that very few of us do, and he was supported in the past by Tom Paul and Wayne Morrisson... I am sure they are right.  They are most right that I have no idea if a routing could have been better.  But, I know when a routing bothers me.. it doesn't necessarily mean it's bad, just that it is bad to me.

As a whole, the routing at Dormie is good -- remember rating it a 6 is quite high as the Golfweek ratings are somewhat akin to Doak scores.  The crossovers from 6 to 7 and 13 to 14 don't bother me.  In fact, I like that so many greens/tees are near each creating a 'hub' of sorts.  I love when courses have a hub -- in club events there is a buzz in that area.

Now, the spots where I found a disconnect:

1) 15 - this is by far the worst one. Maybe part of it is that you have a clear look at the green from the tee and then once you get to the fairway, the green is nowhere to be found.  You walk down into the natural area, trudge through the mud, stopping to find a way to cross a little stream, hopping and skipping across some rocks and hoping you don't twist your ankle.  Heaven help you if you're carrying your clubs.  It took our group a while to get to the fairway, like I said earlier, it really feels like you leave the golf course to go on a little hike -- maybe some like that feeling, but I don't -- I want to see the hole.  You mentioned 11 to 12 at Crystal Downs, I was critical of that one too (although I am mostly alone with that feeling).  It is much worse if, for whatever reason, you are unable to take the 'walking path' as the cart path takes a very roundabout route to the fairway.

2) 5 - This one bothered me a bit too.  The bridge crosses kind of diagonally away from the fairway.  Again, felt like I lost sight of the hole for a while there -- I could be convinced otherwise, though.

3) 2, 3, 4, 17 - These are small nit-picks, but together they contribute to the disjointed feeling.  On all holes the straight line to the fairway is through the natural waste area.  On each hole our caddie directed us around them.  Not hugely off-route, but still it bothered me.

[Andy Troeger]

Mark,
The problem with #15 IMO (which is true to what you describe) has nothing to do with design, however, and everything to do with budget problems that probably prevent them from building a nice footbridge. Problem solved!

I can understand #5 a bit. I just think these misdirection bits like hole #2 are worth about 1% of the value of the golf course (maybe 0.1% for me personally), yet they've constituted 75% of this thread!

If walking through natural waste areas bothers you, then Pine Valley won't be your cup of tea either! I imagine without going through it there are few holes where you don't do that, so I'll guess only 15 where you do!

[David_Madison]

For what it's worth, when I played Dormie in May, we did not walk thru a single path directly from green to fairway. We walked around every hole that had a natural area between the two, almost as if we were playing cartball on foot. That could have had a big impact on my impression of the course and routing. The course wasn't wet, there hadn't been any major rain in awhile, so I don't know why we took the route we did other than that's what our caddy had us doing. I wish that we had taken the direct route thru natural areas whenever possible, as I think that's often an upgrade over just walking on manicured grass the whole way. Still, I believe that the course has many wonderful holes and is far, far better than most courses I've played. But, when determining how it stands among the elite courses, it isn't quite there, as it isn't well balanced, and with such a large piece of wonderful land to work with the routing is not up to what I've seen of other C&C courses.

[William_G]

In regard to comparing Dormie with #2, that's tough in that Dormie is new, unfinished, etc...

I would prefer the restored #2, (it's great!) over Dormie 8 to 2 at this point, but as Dormie matures who knows...still lots of right to left holes, lol.

thanks

[Andy Troeger]

David,
I hope you get another chance to play it once it matures further, especially since I think you said you're located within a reasonable distance. Its not perfect, but that last post makes it sound like you caught it on a bad day. Playing any course and riding "cart-path only" makes them disjointed in a similar fashion, but it can (not always) be a function of the day and not the course.

[Bill_McBride]

For anyone who has been there recently, has #10's fairway to the right of the hazard been restored?

[Craig Disher]

For anyone who has been there recently, has #10's fairway to the right of the hazard been restored?

Bill - it was sodded about a month ago and is now in play.

[Rob_Waldron]

Since when was good design determined by walking paths or cart paths? Personally I prefer to focus on shot values as they relate to tee shot and approach angles and options. I rode the renovated #2 but was unable to play during a recent visit. I agree that it appears improved. That being said I would prefer to play Dormie. I loved all of the options the course offered. I always felt that I could recover from a errant shot. Come on David, Man UP!

[David_Madison]

Rob,

You're telling me to MAN UP after the 68 I shot with you in the cold, windy, wet conditions we played in a few weeks ago? That wasn't Cinderella hitting those shots...

Remember what I said, that I liked the holes at Dormie a lot. Wonderful greens complexes and lots of neat approaches. Some pretty good driving holes, but nowhere near as good as other C&C courses. The cart or walking paths are incidental, they just get you from point to point.  Great design surely incorporates the element of flow, of a natural and logical progression from shot to shot and hole to hole. Dormie as I played and walked it didn't have a flow that worked for me or evidently for Brad Klein or some others I've heard from. Old Town Club, where Bill Coore got his first real taste of exceptional routing, oozes it perhaps more than any course I've ever played. #2 has it, Chechessee Creek has it. Don't tell me that you don't consider it when you evaluate a course. If a great course is just a series of shots, then we may as well evaluate courses from the comfort of a simulator at Golf Galaxy.

[Kalen Braley]

I think awkward transitions can be found on great courses.  Pac Dunes has a couple of very awkward walks IMO

From 11 green to 12 tee,
and 13 green to 14 tee,

but the course is still nothing short of a 9 in my book. 

[Craig Disher]

Rob,

...  Great design surely incorporates the element of flow, of a natural and logical progression from shot to shot and hole to hole. Dormie as I played and walked it didn't have a flow that worked for me or evidently for Brad Klein or some others I've heard from. Old Town Club, where Bill Coore got his first real taste of exceptional routing, oozes it perhaps more than any course I've ever played. #2 has it, Chechessee Creek has it. Don't tell me that you don't consider it when you evaluate a course. If a great course is just a series of shots, then we may as well evaluate courses from the comfort of a simulator at Golf Galaxy.

Can you explain this idea of "flow." I don't see how the DC holes don't "flow" in a natural manner. The course covers 300 pretty tough acres and somehow Bill Coore found a routing that not only gave some good holes but arranged them so that most of the distances between tees and greens can be walked in less than a minute. I haven't seen Old Town but Chechessee and #2 both are built on fairly flat sites where perhaps "flow" is more apparent.

[PThomas]

Rob,

...  Great design surely incorporates the element of flow, of a natural and logical progression from shot to shot and hole to hole. Dormie as I played and walked it didn't have a flow that worked for me or evidently for Brad Klein or some others I've heard from. Old Town Club, where Bill Coore got his first real taste of exceptional routing, oozes it perhaps more than any course I've ever played. #2 has it, Chechessee Creek has it. Don't tell me that you don't consider it when you evaluate a course. If a great course is just a series of shots, then we may as well evaluate courses from the comfort of a simulator at Golf Galaxy.

Can you explain this idea of "flow." I don't see how the DC holes don't "flow" in a natural manner. The course covers 300 pretty tough acres and somehow Bill Coore found a routing that not only gave some good holes but arranged them so that most of the distances between tees and greens can be walked in less than a minute. I haven't seen Old Town but Chechessee and #2 both are built on fairly flat sites where perhaps "flow" is more apparent.

i must agree with Craig - sure a few awkward walks at Dormie but nothing that ruins the round or is even that big of a deal...plenty of well designed holes out there, which is the most important factor

[Bruce Wellmon]

but the course is still nothing short of a 9 in my book. 

I second that.

Craig,
       I'm no expert on Old Town, I have played it twice. But it is certainly rolling terain. Dormie-ish as opposed to CC being flat.

[David_Madison]

"Flow" as I think of it is how I might comfortably walk or explore the property starting from a logically placed clubhouse or starting point if there were no golf holes on it but it was reasonably cleared. Sure, you can have a cross-over or two, an extended walk from a green to a tee, or a detour or two around a hazard or unpassable area. But don't have a lot of it or the flow of the course or walk gets messed up. Cuscowilla has that natural exploration feel, and I remember Upper Baltusrol feeling that way as well. The Bandon courses all work pretty well in this regard, even though there are a limited number of rough spots (13 to 14 on Trails, for example).

Here's what Brad Klein wrote in his article about the course:

"If there’s a drawback at Dormie Club, it’s that the tee shots seem uninteresting, if not repetitive. It doesn’t help having so many forced carries over wetlands and then having to take an indirect route to the fairway. This breaks up the rhythm of a round and makes the holes feel redundant at the start. It’s also maddening that on at least three occasions (eighth, 11th and 15th fairways), the flow and playability of the holes would have been enhanced dramatically had Coore and Crenshaw ventured out of their comfort zone and just nudged a little dirt here and there to reduce obvious (natural) intrusions along the line of play."

[Craig Disher]

David,
Thanks. I understand your point.

But I do question whether there is a lack of flow at DC. The wetlands create interesting features on the course imo but pose a problem if a goal for the routing is to walk directly along the line of play. The club is addressing that, with persistent input from the caddies I think, to add graded walking paths through some of them. There is an easy walk around the right of #2, along the lake on #3, and a nascent walkway through the valley on #15. One improvement I would like to see is a walking bridge over the stream in front of the tee on #8. It's possible that the county government has put restrictions on what can be built over the wetlands and that C&C have done the best they could given the constraints.

One other feature of the routing that would be of great value to members is the ability to create convenient short loops within the course (3 holes (1-3); 8 holes (1-4, 15-18 using the front tee on 15); 10 holes (1-6, 17-18), etc.). I don't know if this was an intentional design feature but I think it's a very good one.

I wonder if Brad had his numbering wrong. There aren't any natural intrusions on #11; the player can walk in a straight line from the tee to the green.

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