What Features Should The 2016 Olympic Course Have?

[David Harshbarger]

The 2016 Olympic course is being purpose built for many things, but certainly the #1 purpose is to be the venue that allows determination of the World's Best Golfer.

Here are some questions about what that course might be like:

What Par?

What Length?

What mix of hazards would you want to see?

What would expect or want that is unique for a course built to determine a champion in Medal play?

How important is the TV Wow! Factor, and what would you do to support that?

Is there anything special in the routing you'd want to see?

What finishing sequence works best?

Are there setup features you'd focus on?

Where on the fun/grind continuum should the course end up?

Dave

[Morgan Clawson]

It will probably not happen, but I would love to see this course set an example for the world on how to build a challenging but sustainable course for the future:
*Brown fairways
*No water hazards unless they are already on site
*Less sand bunkers and more grass bunkers and depressions ala Huntercombe
*Alternative tee boxes so a par 4 can be played 480 yards one day and 340 the next
*Lots of native areas
*Big undulating greens

Most of these fly in the face of the "TV Wow Factor" so they probably won't happen.

[Kalen Braley]

Here is the site...perhaps an initial routing would be interesting.  I can't provide any scale measurement, but all 18 holes must fit on what you see...and leave a little room for a parking lot/clubhouse! 

[Scott Szabo]

I'd like to see a sub-7,000 course, but I doubt that will happen. 

[Jud_T]

Green contours that make the pros whine like stuck pigs when they inevitably ramp 'em up to 12+...

[RJ_Daley]

The obvious is that it needs corridors and green sites that accommodate crowds, ala stadium courses.  It needs to look as close as possible to the home of golf (links) and be wide fairways, random bunkering, and minimalist in presentation, using the micro and as much existing land contour as possible.  In essence, they need to recreate the true feel of links, but do it in a demonstrably useful environmentally sensitive manner.  It needs to have security features in this day and age, as well.  Environmentally, I think that means use of paspalum grass, effluent water, which may be a connundrum  for presenting firm and fast.  It even needs an environmentally sensitive designed toilet system for the crowds.  The turf manager needs to be onboard ASAP to plan a sustainable and demonstrably sensitive to the enviro program of inputs, and practices.  The super should be a super star in his field. 

I don't think it needs money wasted for a clubhouse. (they can do that expensive fancy stuff after the Oly's leave)  A functional starting point, to get national teams off is about it.  It should however have an adequate warm-up and practice area.  Unfortunately, land will have to be wasted for media camp.  But, showing the event is important for the sport, and so facilities technical staging area is needed along with mass transit arrival area. 

[Neil White]

Hi,

It looks as though the area is 1200yds by 1200yds.

Looks fairly flat as well...... interesting main entrance?!



Neil.

[Tim Nugent]

Any bets that Jack's course would use the one across the street from the Bear Lair as a templete? 
Actually, I think Seminole would be a good jumping off point.
For those wishing for a Scottish Links, really? In an urban, tropical setting?  Is that what you think Rio wants to sell?  I think not.  They will want Palm trees, white sand and blue water.

RJ, good call on a those pesky "other requirements".  And Paspalum, although not for the effulent (that would have to be piped from wherever the nearest treatment plant is and this is an urban setting) but rather for the ability to use brackish water.  It would be interesting to know what the water in that lake is.  It appears to be elevated from the sea but that maybe just interpolation.

[RJ_Daley]

My guess is that the Shark and Lorena will be doing a lot of entertaining of the Rio crowd at Championsgate Int, and Jupiter FL.  Don't forget LO's hubby has some pull in those CEO jet set circles as well as the jet-setting-yachting shark.  I just don't see Jack on the same circuit, and maybe I'm all FOS, but I think it is who you know rather than some golf purist architecture competition.  And, the Shark has built enough courses internationally that have some acclaim, that he has demonstrated his firms chops on that international scene.  I'll go out on a limb and guess the Shark gets it, despite all the pull and prestige that Jack and Annika bring, along with Jack's international portfolio of construction.  The Shark is a more 'happening' sort of guy, and fits the Rio model better, IMHO.

[Marty Bonnar]

I've been on Ladbrokes website getting odds of:
7/2 on a waterfall
6/1 on an island green
even money on containment mounding
and
100/1 on a Redan hole.
cheers,
F.

[Matthew Rose]

My guess is it will look like one of those awful faux-TPC type things that you see in other parts of the world.... holes 9, 17, and 18 will wind around a giant lake; the last hole will be a par-five where in order to reach the green you'll need to carry 200 yards of open water and some kind of hideous bulkhead. It will look straight out of 1987.

[Melvyn Morrow]

Tim

In answer to your post #7  “For those wishing for a Scottish Links, really? In an urban, tropical setting?”

Pray tell me what type of courses were out in the corners of the British Empire in the mid 1800’s. Would they have been the American style courses based upon the links of Nicklaus or would they be home from home Scottish based courses.

1860 India


South Africa 1896


Then perhaps we seem to know a little more about the history of golf than others, adfter all we have been playing it for a few years

1690 at Carnoustie


Me thinks you have neglected your golfing history, tropical setting, yes very much so.

Melvyn

[David Harshbarger]

Neil,

1200x1200 yds is about 275 acres, which seems ample.

Tim,

Seminole sounds like an interesting option as a tropical masterpiece.  Will there be a lot of wind at the site?

Martin,

You got hosed on the Redan.  The island green, a la TPC Sawgrass, is about right at 6/1.  Interesting that Dye used that on what was then a made-for-purpose determine the champion course.  16-18 at TPC is a gut check gauntlet.  

My wife was a competitive rider for many years, and her comment on the setup of Olympic equestrian events was that if anything, the big difference was in the scale.  Big events, big space.  Could that be the theme?  It goes with Brazil: big country, big aspirations, big coming out party?

Dave

[Mac Plumart]

This thread has the potential to be excellent.

Tim...Seminole as a starting point.  Excellent!!  Truly excellent.  Of course, I have no idea what is possible/impossible on the site...but that would be really good as the basic foundation of the course is set squarely in tried and true classic architectural principals.  One question along these lines....how much of the beauty and brilliance of a Seminole type routing would be lost to try to accomodate spectators?

[Ted Harris]

fairways wide enough and flat enough to accommodate football pitches

[Neil White]

Hi,

  It would be interesting to know what the water in that lake is.  It appears to be elevated from the sea but that maybe just interpolation.

I'm guessing the lakes between the sea and the parcel of land would be classed as a mangrove lake - so that would suggest the water is fairly saline.

From doing some reading it doesn't look as though any holes would be able to be laid out along the southern edge of the property adjacent to the lake unless there is a large amount of imported soil and shoring put in place - besides it may be a protected area?

On a separate note - what format are they likely to be playing during the Olympics?  Medal play / Matchplay? Would this have any bearing on the style of design?

Neil.

[Melvyn Morrow]

Ted

Wide fairways yes, get that and agree but not flat, they must be undulating with dumps and dips to persuade the ball to stop or keep rolling.



Melvyn

[Mike Sweeney]

While the NCAA, NBA, and FIBA (Olympics) each play a "Size 7" basketball, the three organizations have different criteria with FIBA being the most strict. From Wikipedia:

_________________

Organized basketball leagues generally have very rigorous specifications for the balls to be used in official competition including weight, inflation pressure, bounce, circumference, color, and materials used. Most leagues use very similar specifications for their balls which are referred to as size 7 (for men's competition) and size 6 (for women's competition) by manufacturers. However the specific wording and policy on manufacturers vary between leagues. Here are the official specifications for three popular leagues:

    The International Basketball Federation (FIBA) has very strict criteria for its certified basketballs: The ball must be size 7, bear the name of the manufacturer and a serial number. It must be made of either genuine or artificial/synthetic leather and must be free of toxic materials and materials which may cause allergic reactions, and must also be free of heavy metals and AZO colors, though FIBA does not specify a specific color for the ball. It must be between 749 millimetres (mm) and 780 mm (29.5-30.7 in) in circumference, it must bounce at least 1300 mm (51.2 in) when dropped from a height of 1800 mm (70.9 in) on a hard surface with a mass of more than 1 ton, and it must weigh between 567 grams (g) and 650 g (20-22.9 oz). The ball must also pass a battery of rigorous tests: a fatigue test where it is bounced 20,000 times at a reference pressure without leaking any air, and then perform to specification when dropped from the reference height (1800 mm); a heat test where it is stored in a room for 7 days at 70 Celsius (158 Fahrenheit) and show no difference in appearance or performance; a valve test where a dry inflation needle is inserted into the ball 100 times and the ball must not show any leakage afterwards; and a friction test where the outer surface must match or exceed friction requirements or perform to the testers' satisfaction in a practice game. The manufacturer of the ball must have been certified by FIBA, which entails submitting balls for testing and paying a $3,000 testing fee, paying $13,000 per year in licensing fees, and printing the FIBA logo on each ball. Any manufacturer may submit for testing and certification.[2]

    The National Collegiate Athletic Association (NCAA) has less stringent requirements: The ball must measure between 29.5 and 30 inches (749–762 mm) in circumference, bounce between 49 and 54 inches (1245–1372 mm) when dropped from a height of 6 feet (1829 mm), and must weigh between 20 and 22 ounces (567–624 g) for men's competition (size 7), and measure between 28.5 and 29 inches (724–737 mm) in circumference , bounce between 51 and 56 inches (1295–1422 mm) when dropped from a height of 6 feet (1829 mm), and must weigh between 18 and 20 ounces (510–567 g) for women's competition (Size 6). Though the NCAA does not specify a particular manufacturer for the ball in regular season play, the Wilson SOLUTION basketball is the official basketball of the NCAA tournament.[3]

    The National Basketball Association (NBA) allows only one official ball: The ball must be the official NBA game ball manufactured by Spalding. The ball is orange in color, 29.5 (749 mm) inches in circumference and weighs 22 ounces (624 g) (size 7). It must also be inflated to between 7.5 and 8.5 pounds per square inch. Starting in the 2006 season, the NBA switched to a new ball from Spalding that had a synthetic surface and a modified rib pattern (See section below). Until 2005 the ball had a leather surface. On December 11, 2006 the NBA decided to revert to the old leather ball due to numerous player complaints, lawsuits and injuries, mostly scratched hands, from the synthetic ball.[4] Spalding has manufactured the official NBA game ball since 1983.[5][6]

    The Women's National Basketball Association (WNBA) has similar requirements to the NBA: The ball must be the official WNBA game ball manufactured by Spalding. The ball must be orange and white in color, between 28.5 and 29 inches (724–737 mm) in circumference and weigh between 18 and 20 ounces (510–567 g) (size 6).[7]

____________________________


In essence, FIBA has created an Olympics basketball and they make manufacturers pay for certification.

I know it won't happen because of the parties that make up the Olympics Golf Committee, but here you have the opportunity to build a 6999 yard course with an "Olympics Ball", and begin to curtail the arms race of professional golf. 

[Adrian_Stiff]

The course should be designed to test the top golfers in the world.
It should be in excess of 7200 yards. It should have narrow driving areas. It should be penal. It should have good viewing and space for spectators. There should be space allowed for stands and trading areas. It should have returning nines to the clubhouse. The course must be both visually exciting and create drama.

[Mac Plumart]

While the NCAA, NBA, and FIBA (Olympics) each play a "Size 7" basketball, the three organizations have different criteria with FIBA being the most strict. From Wikipedia:

_________________

Organized basketball leagues generally have very rigorous specifications for the balls to be used in official competition including weight, inflation pressure, bounce, circumference, color, and materials used. Most leagues use very similar specifications for their balls which are referred to as size 7 (for men's competition) and size 6 (for women's competition) by manufacturers. However the specific wording and policy on manufacturers vary between leagues. Here are the official specifications for three popular leagues:

    The International Basketball Federation (FIBA) has very strict criteria for its certified basketballs: The ball must be size 7, bear the name of the manufacturer and a serial number. It must be made of either genuine or artificial/synthetic leather and must be free of toxic materials and materials which may cause allergic reactions, and must also be free of heavy metals and AZO colors, though FIBA does not specify a specific color for the ball. It must be between 749 millimetres (mm) and 780 mm (29.5-30.7 in) in circumference, it must bounce at least 1300 mm (51.2 in) when dropped from a height of 1800 mm (70.9 in) on a hard surface with a mass of more than 1 ton, and it must weigh between 567 grams (g) and 650 g (20-22.9 oz). The ball must also pass a battery of rigorous tests: a fatigue test where it is bounced 20,000 times at a reference pressure without leaking any air, and then perform to specification when dropped from the reference height (1800 mm); a heat test where it is stored in a room for 7 days at 70 Celsius (158 Fahrenheit) and show no difference in appearance or performance; a valve test where a dry inflation needle is inserted into the ball 100 times and the ball must not show any leakage afterwards; and a friction test where the outer surface must match or exceed friction requirements or perform to the testers' satisfaction in a practice game. The manufacturer of the ball must have been certified by FIBA, which entails submitting balls for testing and paying a $3,000 testing fee, paying $13,000 per year in licensing fees, and printing the FIBA logo on each ball. Any manufacturer may submit for testing and certification.[2]

    The National Collegiate Athletic Association (NCAA) has less stringent requirements: The ball must measure between 29.5 and 30 inches (749–762 mm) in circumference, bounce between 49 and 54 inches (1245–1372 mm) when dropped from a height of 6 feet (1829 mm), and must weigh between 20 and 22 ounces (567–624 g) for men's competition (size 7), and measure between 28.5 and 29 inches (724–737 mm) in circumference , bounce between 51 and 56 inches (1295–1422 mm) when dropped from a height of 6 feet (1829 mm), and must weigh between 18 and 20 ounces (510–567 g) for women's competition (Size 6). Though the NCAA does not specify a particular manufacturer for the ball in regular season play, the Wilson SOLUTION basketball is the official basketball of the NCAA tournament.[3]

    The National Basketball Association (NBA) allows only one official ball: The ball must be the official NBA game ball manufactured by Spalding. The ball is orange in color, 29.5 (749 mm) inches in circumference and weighs 22 ounces (624 g) (size 7). It must also be inflated to between 7.5 and 8.5 pounds per square inch. Starting in the 2006 season, the NBA switched to a new ball from Spalding that had a synthetic surface and a modified rib pattern (See section below). Until 2005 the ball had a leather surface. On December 11, 2006 the NBA decided to revert to the old leather ball due to numerous player complaints, lawsuits and injuries, mostly scratched hands, from the synthetic ball.[4] Spalding has manufactured the official NBA game ball since 1983.[5][6]

    The Women's National Basketball Association (WNBA) has similar requirements to the NBA: The ball must be the official WNBA game ball manufactured by Spalding. The ball must be orange and white in color, between 28.5 and 29 inches (724–737 mm) in circumference and weigh between 18 and 20 ounces (510–567 g) (size 6).[7]

____________________________


In essence, FIBA has created an Olympics basketball and they make manufacturers pay for certification.

I know it won't happen because of the parties that make up the Olympics Golf Committee, but here you have the opportunity to build a 6999 yard course with an "Olympics Ball", and begin to curtail the arms race of professional golf. 

Schwing!!!  Carpe Diem.

[David Harshbarger]

Mike,

Interesting call, suggesting whatever other features on the course, the balls on it should have less boom.

Adrian,

What would you do in the routing to create Medal play drama?  Would you load up on penal holes throughout?  Or put a stretch of  half-pars late to encourage risk taking for birdies and eagles?

If scale is a factor, what about really large greens, with four distinct, treacherous pins each (at least)? When you miss on huge green, you are stuck with one recovery shot, the putt. It's been said on here that nobody practices 100' putts.

This being Rio, would the course be Ipanema North, with plenty of sand and water?  How about vast expanses of sand, like a literal beach that dominates a string of holes, next to the lake? 

This being Rio, home of Carnival, how much excess and whimsy should the course exude?  Feather shaped bunkers making a headdress? 

Does the course need to defend par?  I don't think it needs to be an Open setup. Actually, the opposite, as long term it needs to promote growth and be fun.

I do think it needs that signature hole that captures the imagination and sums up the course.  It's a great shorthand to have a hole where the casual fan can say Oh Yeah, that's the course with ______________.  Think Amen Corner, Sawgrass 17, Cypress Point 16.

Dave

[Tom_Doak]

It's a shame they have not released their criteria for what the course should be [both for the event and in "legacy mode" afterward], so I can't discuss it all here.  For now, let's just say that whoever wrote it up was more thoughtful than many of the posts in this space so far.

[Tom_Doak]

I do think it needs that signature hole that captures the imagination and sums up the course.  It's a great shorthand to have a hole where the casual fan can say Oh Yeah, that's the course with ______________.  Think Amen Corner, Sawgrass 17, Cypress Point 16.

Dave

Really, David?  A signature hole is the most important thing??  This thread is starting to make me think I am wasting my time on Golf Club Atlas.  In the old days you'd have already been flamed out by Tommy N. and Gib, and I would have got a good laugh out of it.

[Mike Sweeney]

Mike,

Interesting call, suggesting whatever other features on the course, the balls on it should have less boom.


Dave

David,

For The Olympics and really for golf in general, it is the ONLY competitive sport where the players bring their own balls to the playing field. Every other sport, the ball is supplied by the host/league/federation.....

[Melvyn Morrow]

Tom

No, you are not wasting your time here, far from it, so keep posting. The others will catch up sometime (maybe)

Melvyn