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Melvyn Morrow

Re: Guess The 8 Finalists for the Olympic Design Job
« Reply #75 on: December 02, 2011, 05:24:23 PM »

Why not just save a lot of time, money and short cut the system. In other words do what many of the designers will do anyway and just reproduce templates of the best Scottish Holes for the Olympics. After all if the Olympics are based upon Greece, so it’s only right that golf should be based upon the Scottish game and courses.

Melvyn

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Guess The 8 Finalists for the Olympic Design Job
« Reply #76 on: December 02, 2011, 05:37:21 PM »
Kalen,

Do you have the Google Earth coordinates for that?

Thought I'd attach the "before" aerial too!!  ;D



"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Guess The 8 Finalists for the Olympic Design Job
« Reply #77 on: December 02, 2011, 05:45:18 PM »
Ahhh Cmon,

Of all people, I shouldn't be having to tell you how to find that bit of land!!

Here's the link on google maps.

http://maps.google.com/?ll=-23.006831,-43.406961&spn=0.015662,0.018196&t=h&z=16&vpsrc=6

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Guess The 8 Finalists for the Olympic Design Job
« Reply #78 on: December 02, 2011, 05:51:39 PM »

Jim Colton

Re: Guess The 8 Finalists for the Olympic Design Job
« Reply #79 on: December 02, 2011, 06:08:43 PM »
Kalen,

Do you have the Google Earth coordinates for that?

Thought I'd attach the "before" aerial too!!  ;D




We should have an armchair contest for the proposed site!

Don_Mahaffey

Re: Guess The 8 Finalists for the Olympic Design Job
« Reply #80 on: December 02, 2011, 06:14:39 PM »
JC,

You may be right as to the course's impact, but I wouldn't underestimate either the Olympics impact on the game globally if golf takes hold as an Olympic sport or the possible ratings vs. say the President's Cup...

I agree with you.  My point was that, unlike what Tom was saying, I think the golf course will be irrelevant when determining the impact of the Olympics on the game of golf.

I think to many it will appear irrelevant, but I believe how the course is designed, constructed, and positioned for long term sustainability will impact the game of golf. Golf has a long history of copy cat practices and in an emerging golf market like Brazil I believe the influence of this course could be huge on future golf development.
If we end up with a totally manufactured course that looks like a high end Florida track and costs 20M to build and 2M to maintain, it will influence what comes next.

If we end up with a more naturalistic course that costs 5M to build and $500,000 to maintain, we might just convince future builders that there is a better way. Knowing the history of excess, bribery and corruption in recent Olympics, its hard to think the organizers might want to take the low cost approach as that means less money to spread around, but hey, one can still hope, and I know I will be hoping they do the right thing for the growth of the game.  


Anthony Butler

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Guess The 8 Finalists for the Olympic Design Job
« Reply #81 on: December 02, 2011, 06:19:09 PM »
In 2012, Donald Trump strong-arms the IOC to make it a Trump Rio International after the Games and only Hawtree will work with him.
« Last Edit: December 02, 2011, 06:21:03 PM by Anthony Butler »
Next!

Mac Plumart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Guess The 8 Finalists for the Olympic Design Job
« Reply #82 on: December 02, 2011, 06:24:07 PM »
JC,

You may be right as to the course's impact, but I wouldn't underestimate either the Olympics impact on the game globally if golf takes hold as an Olympic sport or the possible ratings vs. say the President's Cup...

I agree with you.  My point was that, unlike what Tom was saying, I think the golf course will be irrelevant when determining the impact of the Olympics on the game of golf.

I think to many it will appear irrelevant, but I believe how the course is designed, constructed, and positioned for long term sustainability will impact the game of golf. Golf has a long history of copy cat practices and in an emerging golf market like Brazil I believe the influence of this course could be huge on future golf development.
If we end up with a totally manufactured course that looks like a high end Florida track and costs 20M to build and 2M to maintain, it will influence what comes next.

If we end up with a more naturalistic course that costs 5M to build and $500,000 to maintain, we might just convince future builders that there is a better way. Knowing the history of excess, bribery and corruption in recent Olympics, its hard to think the organizers might want to take the low cost approach as that means less money to spread around, but hey, one can still hope, and I know I will be hoping they do the right thing for the growth of the game.  



Don...I agree.  This is a very important golf course.
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Guess The 8 Finalists for the Olympic Design Job
« Reply #83 on: December 02, 2011, 06:31:35 PM »
Kalen,

Do you have the Google Earth coordinates for that?

Thought I'd attach the "before" aerial too!!  ;D




We should have an armchair contest for the proposed site!

I have proposed that before.

When the Olympics were first given golf, the question came up of where would the course be. I posted the following as a suggestion at that time.



How did I do?

« Last Edit: December 02, 2011, 06:46:52 PM by Garland Bayley »
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Peter Pallotta

Re: Guess The 8 Finalists for the Olympic Design Job
« Reply #84 on: December 02, 2011, 06:35:47 PM »
Don - You've changed my mind about this. I think you have it right, in all its particulars.  I may not be as hopeful as you are, but for any of the candidates who may be listening, here's my two cents on how to perhaps increase the chances of the hoped-for outcome:

Part of the pitch (i.e. that accompanies the design) should acknowledge a) Brazil's status as an economic powerhouse (more than 50% of all South America's GDP) and global player, i.e. with the other BRIC countries of Russia, India and China, it accounts for (I forget the percentages but) a significant portion of the world's land mass and population and economic output, as well as an enormous and growing middle class -- in short, "what happens in Brazil will influence the future of golf development world-wide"; and b) that President Dilma Rousseff is doing an admirable job of continuing and enhancing the policies and programmes of her much-loved predecessor, President "Lulu", in raising the standard of living for the poor and low income earners while sustaining growth throughout the whole economy and its various sectors -- in short, "Brazil is clearly committed to raising of quality of life and opportunities for all its citizens".

What I'm suggesting is that, in order to counter the upward pressure on costs that Don mentions, an architect who wishes to pitch a less expensive to build and maintain course needs to remind Brazilian decision-makers of what they're "supposed to" believe, i.e. of the face that Brazil wants to show the world, of the message about itself and to itself that it wants to share with its global partners.

Might be misguided, but I guess it couldn't hurt.

Peter    
« Last Edit: December 02, 2011, 06:59:13 PM by PPallotta »

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Guess The 8 Finalists for the Olympic Design Job
« Reply #85 on: December 02, 2011, 07:07:51 PM »
Well, nobody got more than 5 right.  Messrs. Colton, Goldstein, Saltzman and Cutolo each got 5, so that gets each of you 1/4 of the way to Rio ... probably somewhere between Cuba and Venezuela, depending on where you live.  ;)

I actually would have gotten 7 out of 8.  I thought Faldo / Fazio would be chosen if they submitted a bid, but I don't know if they actually did, or not.  I didn't think of Thomson / Perrett [kudos to Michael Goldstein for including them].

I don't think I revealed anything confidential here ... the schedule was revised in early November when they delayed the decision ... but I would appreciate it if no one would try to get me disqualified from the process and let us take our best shot at it.

Howard Riefs

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Guess The 8 Finalists for the Olympic Design Job
« Reply #86 on: December 02, 2011, 07:08:30 PM »
Lazy reporting by Associated Press (http://espn.go.com/golf/story/_/id/7308178/jack-nicklaus-finalist-design-olympic-golf-course):

"Brazilian officials say Jack Nicklaus, Robert Trent Jones Jr. and other top golf course architects are in the running to design the 2016 Olympic course."

Congrats, nonetheless, to Tom and the Renaissance team.



"Golf combines two favorite American pastimes: Taking long walks and hitting things with a stick."  ~P.J. O'Rourke

David_Elvins

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Guess The 8 Finalists for the Olympic Design Job
« Reply #87 on: December 02, 2011, 07:32:32 PM »
I would appreciate it if no one would try to get me disqualified from the process and let us take our best shot at it.

It wouldn't be the Olympics without a controversial disqualification, Tom. 

Good luck with it all.  If you need any specialist advice, I have used the driving range at Sydney's Olympic Park several times. 
Ask not what GolfClubAtlas can do for you; ask what you can do for GolfClubAtlas.

Peter Pallotta

Re: Guess The 8 Finalists for the Olympic Design Job
« Reply #88 on: December 02, 2011, 07:53:02 PM »
Howard - that's an interesting quote, and my guess is that it's more significant than some might think.  In the context of my last post, I think it reflects that those "Brazilian officials" are still in the mind-set of "the old Brazil" - the Brazil that was anxious to prove to the world that it was a global player, that was eager to be taken seriously by the superpowers.  But as I say, that is the old Brazil -- the NEW one recognizes that it IS a global player, and is more self confident about what it has and what it has to offer.  (I recently heard Brazil's Ambassador to Canada speak -- and he didn't speak as someone with his hat in his hands, but as someone calmly tsk-tsking that Canada has been foolish to be so behind the game in terms of forging business and trade and investment and political linkages with Brazil; he KNOWS that Brazil is an important marketplace, and even a big source of outward-flowing foreign investment).  For our home-town architect to have a fair chance in a competition that won't be solely (or maybe even primarily) about the quality of the design, those decision-makers will have to be reminded that it's a brand new world, and that Brazil shouldn't and needn't be blushing that global firms/names might deign to build a course there.


Peter  
« Last Edit: December 02, 2011, 07:54:44 PM by PPallotta »

Michael Goldstein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Guess The 8 Finalists for the Olympic Design Job
« Reply #89 on: December 02, 2011, 09:11:34 PM »
TD, Good luck with the next stage. 

@Pure_Golf

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Guess The 8 Finalists for the Olympic Design Job
« Reply #90 on: December 02, 2011, 09:12:34 PM »
TD, Good luck with the next stage. 



Thanks, Michael.  I've had thirty years to think about the problem, I ought to have a few decent ideas by now.

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Guess The 8 Finalists for the Olympic Design Job
« Reply #91 on: December 02, 2011, 10:05:21 PM »

Bohemian Grove ;)
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

David_Elvins

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Guess The 8 Finalists for the Olympic Design Job
« Reply #92 on: December 02, 2011, 10:54:09 PM »
I've had thirty years to think about the problem, I ought to have a few decent ideas by now.

Tom, I believe that the winning pitch (hopefully yours) will be the one that has a golf hole modelled  on the Rio 2016 logo.  The logo has a fairway, a water hazard, a bunker and plently of beautiful sweeping curves just waiting to be turned into a golf hole.  chuck in some geenside bunkers modelled on the olympic rings and and olympic torch tee markers and the job is yours, I believe.

Ask not what GolfClubAtlas can do for you; ask what you can do for GolfClubAtlas.

Sven Nilsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Guess The 8 Finalists for the Olympic Design Job
« Reply #93 on: December 02, 2011, 11:02:33 PM »
This would make for a great armchair architect contest.  If someone can come up with a topo, we'd be in business.

Imagine comparing the results created here with the final result.
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Tiger_Bernhardt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Guess The 8 Finalists for the Olympic Design Job
« Reply #94 on: December 02, 2011, 11:04:31 PM »
It is interesting that the poster architects of the British Golf Ass being Donald Steele and the USGA being Rees Jones did not get picked. Much of the list is solid and there are a few that well look like something a politician would put in.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Guess The 8 Finalists for the Olympic Design Job
« Reply #95 on: December 02, 2011, 11:07:43 PM »
Tiger:  Who exactly is the "British Golf Ass" ?  :)

No jokes, please!

Randy Thompson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Guess The 8 Finalists for the Olympic Design Job
« Reply #96 on: December 02, 2011, 11:29:59 PM »
I agree with Don 100%. Rio is a special case, a top ten International destination with no current place for Mr. big buck tourist golfer to play. They can make the numbers work on a ten million dollar course with a one million dollar maintenance budget. The problem is those numbers wonīt work anywhere else in South America on a stand alone golf course. If they donīt create a workable economical model, this event will come and go and a great oportunity will be lost for South America.
Congrats to Tom Doak, I think we all will be pulling for you and congrats to the other seven firms. Take out the politics and this lsit could have easily been narrowed down to three.
 I have been involved in five projects in Brazil and I can only say its going to be a difficult project for so many factors. To give you an idea I have this to share with you. On Monday I was in Brazil at a five star hotel, while waiting for the elevator on the fourteenth floor there was a sign that read the following, CAUTION, please make sure the elevator is actually present on your floor before stepping in! Not only did I check first but I also sent my wife in first, trying to act like a gentleman, holding the door so it wouldnīt shut on her but I really wanted to see if the cables were working and holding first.
Translation: Donīt take anything for granted!

Sven Nilsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Guess The 8 Finalists for the Olympic Design Job
« Reply #97 on: December 02, 2011, 11:46:21 PM »
Wow, totally missed Colton beating me to the punch on the armchair contest suggestion. 

In an effort to actually add something of value to this thread, I was able to place a call to the local land survey office in Brazil.  I'm not sure if I've got this exactly right (something might have been lost in translation or conversion), but the most recent records indicate a total elevation variance of approximately 5.5 yards from highest to lowest point on the proposed site.

The only thing more shocking than the relative flatness of the property chosen to build the course for the Olympics is that Brazilian land survey offices are open 24 hours.
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Guess The 8 Finalists for the Olympic Design Job
« Reply #98 on: December 02, 2011, 11:59:41 PM »
Wow, totally missed Colton beating me to the punch on the armchair contest suggestion. 

In an effort to actually add something of value to this thread, I was able to place a call to the local land survey office in Brazil.  I'm not sure if I've got this exactly right (something might have been lost in translation or conversion), but the most recent records indicate a total elevation variance of approximately 5.5 yards from highest to lowest point on the proposed site.

The only thing more shocking than the relative flatness of the property chosen to build the course for the Olympics is that Brazilian land survey offices are open 24 hours.

Sven:

Or, you could just look at the site on Google Earth, move the cursor over the site, and read the elevations it gives.  They're not 100% reliable, but they're pretty good as far as getting an idea of whether the site is flat or hilly.

Andrew Summerell

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Guess The 8 Finalists for the Olympic Design Job
« Reply #99 on: December 03, 2011, 02:59:12 AM »
I didn't think of Thomson / Perrett

Their inclusion has made quite a few Aussie have a good laugh.............or cry.

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