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Joe Bentham

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Bandon Preserve preview.
« on: November 30, 2011, 12:00:03 AM »
Got to play the preserve today.  For THOSE of you that are interested you can read some short thoughts at pacduneslooper.com
and look at more of my pictures here http://www.flickr.com/photos/pacduneslooper/sets/72157628212670975/
Tons of fun.  Can't wait until it is fast and firm.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2011, 02:50:08 AM by Joe Bentham »

Will MacEwen

Re: Bandon Preserve preview.
« Reply #1 on: November 30, 2011, 12:39:46 AM »
Joe - love the pictures, can't wait to play it.  The link for your pictures needs a tweak at the front of it ....

Jim Colton

Re: Bandon Preserve preview.
« Reply #2 on: November 30, 2011, 05:55:29 AM »
It's too bad you had such a crummy day to take those pictures! Looks like a lot of fun, Joe.

David_Elvins

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Re: Bandon Preserve preview.
« Reply #3 on: November 30, 2011, 06:01:45 AM »
Great stuff Joe. 
Ask not what GolfClubAtlas can do for you; ask what you can do for GolfClubAtlas.

PCCraig

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bandon Preserve preview.
« Reply #4 on: November 30, 2011, 08:34:53 AM »
Course looks great and like it would be a lot of fun. I'm not a fan of the logo though.
H.P.S.

Michael Wharton-Palmer

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Re: Bandon Preserve preview.
« Reply #5 on: November 30, 2011, 09:00:38 AM »
thanks Joe...looks great, when is the officail opening?

Kris Shreiner

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Re: Bandon Preserve preview.
« Reply #6 on: November 30, 2011, 10:15:35 AM »
Joe,

Thanks for the pics and info. Is it me or are those white suits the caddies wear just awful. For a place as progressive as Bandon Dunes, I'd have thought they'd have gotten rid of that nonsense a LONG time ago. Just because Augusta and a bunch of other facility followers wear them doesn't mean that is the way to go. That white suit is a leftover from the vestiges of the discrimination era in the South and has NO PLACE in golf today! Those folks who champion the white suit can squirm all they want...look at early pictures of the Masters...there was NO WHITE SUIT...caddies wore regular clothes...What was the matter, they might actually look like regular human beings?!

I've heard all sorts of explanations and bizarre excuse making to try and justify why they are still O.K. and acceptable. It's all B.S. keep ya down horse#%?! Some caddies, generally lazy ones that like the ease of having to put on just one form of attire, have swallowed the koolaid and actually endorse it. Where's you're self respect you clowns? It degrading and totally uncomfortable in many cases.

From a marketing standpoint, it's the DUMBEST thing I've every witnessed on a golf course. Think about it. The facility,  be it a private or public destination,  has 3-5 hours of unmatched, intimate personal time, with their caddie staff able to elevate the presentation of the  experience AND create a lasting impression of their brand. Who the hell ever left with a white suit for themselves or their buddies? Thank you...NO ONE! So why on earth would you stuff your caddies in some stupid, white suit when you could have them in sharp, logo'd attire of quality to BEST reflect the unique location and memories of that time spent together.

The quality and presentation of your caddie staff should reflect the caliber and expectation of your golfers. Why wouldn't you strive for the best, especially if you wish to be regarded as an exceptional golf experience. I personally helped sell tens of thousands of dollars of golf apparel and gifts when I've worked at both elite private, and public, golf facilities. I got not one nickel from it, but I took pride in being well-turned out, in distinctive garb sold in the facility shop, WHENEVER I stepped to the first tee to caddie for players.
They would frequenty comment on how nice the garment looked and I would then make them aware of where they could find it in the golf shop. Serious profits are being missed by ANY facility of quality that STILL has their caddies in white suits.

These observations and comments were not meant to thread-jack, but as many on this site hold Bandon Dunes in high regard(and I do in most cases), this issue/area needs some updating.

Cheers,
Kris 8)
« Last Edit: November 30, 2011, 10:26:37 AM by Kris Shreiner »
"I said in a talk at the Dunhill Tournament in St. Andrews a few years back that I thought any of the caddies I'd had that week would probably make a good golf course architect. We all want to ask golfers of all abilities to get more out of their games -caddies do that for a living." T.Doak

Howard Riefs

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Re: Bandon Preserve preview.
« Reply #7 on: November 30, 2011, 10:23:21 AM »
Course looks great and like it would be a lot of fun. I'm not a fan of the logo though.

Agree on both accounts. Not surprised that the logo is less than inspired. Logos for Bandon and Pacific are top-notch. The others -- not so much.


Thanks for the pics and info. Is it me or are those white suits the caddies wear just awful. For a place as progressive as Bandon Dunes, I'd have thought they'd have gotten rid of that nonsense a LONG time ago. Just because Augusta and a bunch of other followers wear them doesn't mean that is the way to go. That white suit is a leftover from the vestiges of the discrimination era in the South and has NO PLACE in golf today! Those folks who champion the white suit can squirm all they want...look at early pictures of the Masters...there was NO WHITE SUIT...caddies wore regular clothes...What was the matter, they might actually look like regular human beings?!


Bandon isn't alone among major resorts where caddies wear the white suits. As I remember, the same is the case at Pinehurst, Kohler and Sea Island.  The caddies at Kiawah wear bibs with shorts.  
« Last Edit: November 30, 2011, 10:27:24 AM by Howard Riefs »
"Golf combines two favorite American pastimes: Taking long walks and hitting things with a stick."  ~P.J. O'Rourke

Kris Shreiner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bandon Preserve preview.
« Reply #8 on: November 30, 2011, 10:30:26 AM »
Howard,

What's your point? Just because other misguided faciility management teams do the same thing doesn't make it a wise choice.

Respectfully,
Kris 8)
"I said in a talk at the Dunhill Tournament in St. Andrews a few years back that I thought any of the caddies I'd had that week would probably make a good golf course architect. We all want to ask golfers of all abilities to get more out of their games -caddies do that for a living." T.Doak

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bandon Preserve preview.
« Reply #9 on: November 30, 2011, 10:30:47 AM »
Sadly, many people who frequent even the finest clubs in the country dress so poorly that you need a way to distinguish the caddie from the player.  It is much easier to dictate a dress code to an employee than a customer.

Howard Riefs

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bandon Preserve preview.
« Reply #10 on: November 30, 2011, 10:41:49 AM »
Howard,

What's your point? Just because other misguided faciility management teams do the same thing doesn't make it a wise choice.

Respectfully,
Kris 8)

Kris -

No point at all.  It's simply background on how other facilities and/or caddie services providers (e.g., Caddiemaster) manage their caddie program.  I have no particular preference.  Just a caddie that knows the course, is personable and helps make it an enjoyable round.
"Golf combines two favorite American pastimes: Taking long walks and hitting things with a stick."  ~P.J. O'Rourke

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bandon Preserve preview.
« Reply #11 on: November 30, 2011, 10:49:02 AM »
One other thing.  The majority of golfers in my life have never had a caddie or gone on a $3,000 golf trip.  If they put in a month's work at the factory and get a chance to have a caddie, who is being hurt by the guy wearing a classic uniform.

Being the gluttonous government teat sucker than I be, one of my joys in life is taking people who have never been to Morton's out for a prolonged evening of food and drink.  Part of the charm is the culture and dress code of the wait staff.  We all know it is part of the game and enjoy the role each of us play.  Who doesn't like a touch of fantasy now and then?

Kris Shreiner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bandon Preserve preview.
« Reply #12 on: November 30, 2011, 11:30:12 AM »
John,

If the players dress poorly, that is their choice. There is no reason to subject the caddies to the degrading(make NO MISTAKE that is felt by 99% of the caddies that are FORCED to wear them) and often uncomfortable white suit. They also are usually too heavy a fabric for the climate, don't breathe well, and get trashed on bad weather days.

Many of those that have never done the job kind of think it's nice to have their caddie in the white suit. It's not. As to the "classic uniform" ...that emerged from only ONE place in the LONG history of the game and I'll say it again, for the reasons mentioned, it has NO PLACE in the game today. Having waitered, before and during my college years, at the higher end dining locales along the lines of the Morton's establishment you mention, there is a rightness and respect level accorded with the generally SHARP look of that attire. Conversly, it is hard to find much love or elan associated with the white suit. If you've done the job, or appreciate the comfort of, and have a healthy respect for quality caddies that I imagine you have, it becomes failrly obvious that the white suit era needs to be retired...PRONTO.

It will happen. It takes time for the stubborn and indifferent to come around to the reality that the white suit was an idea rooted in an ugly past, that serves no purpose today... except for those that want to extend the "fantasy."


Howard,

That organization you reference is a terrible scourge and blight that has infiltrated the game and sustained itself, due to ignorance within the industry, on how to run quality caddie programs that RESPECT those that do the job. I'll not get into all the reasons here.

Just so you are aware, that organizaton lifted that "white suit" mantra from Augusta, after they convinced the men in green to take them on to run their caddie program the early days of that company. The other facilities you cite as having the white suited caddies are ALL facilities that have the entity you mentioned running their caddie programs. Very few other facilities, save copycat destination facilities that think that is something noble to emulate, follow that tasteless trend. Why be just like everyone else?

It's PURE COPYCAT! Do you think Pine Valley,Merion, or Cypress Point would even think of putting their caddies in that disgusting,demeaning suit...NEVER! They respect their caddies and set their OWN standards... and do not mistakenly follow others in the game. With all respect, those just-mentioned places golf presentations' usually BLOW the caddie- outsourced presentation experiences away. No white suit ensures a quality golf experience. Bandon runs their own program in-house and does a lot of it very well, but the white suit is pure copy-cat and serves little purpose except for the lazy.

Cheers,
Kris 8)


 
« Last Edit: November 30, 2011, 12:13:29 PM by Kris Shreiner »
"I said in a talk at the Dunhill Tournament in St. Andrews a few years back that I thought any of the caddies I'd had that week would probably make a good golf course architect. We all want to ask golfers of all abilities to get more out of their games -caddies do that for a living." T.Doak

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bandon Preserve preview.
« Reply #13 on: November 30, 2011, 11:33:24 AM »
Kris,

Please show me some historical evidence that the white suit is racist when worn by the oppressed.

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bandon Preserve preview.
« Reply #14 on: November 30, 2011, 11:35:09 AM »
I will say that I find it easier to find golf balls when wearing slacks as opposed to shorts.  I think there is some utility to the uniform.

Ryan Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bandon Preserve preview.
« Reply #15 on: November 30, 2011, 11:57:46 AM »
Kris, do you agree that caddies should be in some type of uniform?

Joe Bentham

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bandon Preserve preview.
« Reply #16 on: November 30, 2011, 12:18:39 PM »
Kris--

We are allowed at Bandon Dunes to wear either the whites or a combination of the rain suit and various wind shirts, polos and mock turtle necks all emblazoned with the Bandon dunes logo and available for the purchase in the pro shop.  We've gone through several different vendors for our rain suits and gear over the years and most of the changes have been made in order to take advantage of the 'marketing' opportunity you described.  As an independent contractor the choice is ours and I haven chosen to consistently wear the whites when the weather allows.
The whites are functional.  They are much more comfortable to work in then the other options.  Plenty of pockets for stuff and room to move in.  I can layer up or down underneath them when the conditions call for.  I also think a clean pair of whites looks good.  Much better then mismatched shorts, rain gear or khakis and a golf shirt would look IMO. 
Looping at Bandon might not be the same as it is at other places.  We need protection from the elements.  I've NEVER thought 'man I'd like to wear shorts to loop in today' or for that matter even slacks and a golf shirt.
So thanks for the concern but I literally laughed out loud and almost spewed coffee onto my keyboard this morning when I read that whites are a leftover from the vestiges of the discrimination era in the South according to you.

Kris Shreiner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bandon Preserve preview.
« Reply #17 on: November 30, 2011, 12:43:21 PM »
Ryan,

While some, pardon the pun, "uniformity" makes sense, a crisp, sharp look is the goal. A quality caddie staff should be comprised of folks that understood the importance of apperance and take pride in representing themselves and the facility in a quality manner. Kahki slacks and appropriate shorts, when practical, make sense. Shirts would be collared, but some style options and variety are certainly welcomed. Weather varies, why shouldn't the attire?

Quality rain gear is a must. Additionally, sleek, functional outerwear, such as vests and pullovers with proper pockets, are an easy call. These things should be provided to the caddies at cost. I've been around caddies for 35 years, and those of caliber never had a problem spending for something if it was a good value! It shows the caddie staff that the facility appreciates their efforts and respects their contributions.

Again the goal for ANY caddie facility in the modern, post Francis Ouimet era, should be that the quality of the caddie staff should reflect the caliber and respect the facility has for the golfers that belong or play there. How many facilities can even come close to matching that statement? How many commit what it takes to achieve that level? The dearth that hit the mark are the reason that pathetic outsource-models have emerged. The "EXPERTS" that manage the game have lost their way in many cases.

It's sad. There is a better way. It will become apparent very quickly once the game re-invests in its roots and relearns as an industry that the caddie dynamic has been the games soul for centuries. It doen't matter that only a small percentage of golf is caddie golf. The issue is that as the single, greatest source of the game's differencemakers and champions.... it should be supported and fostered by the game WHEREVER financially viable. It's that crucial to the game's health.

Golf's entire history CONFIRMS it. Abondon caddie golf, treat it with indifference or distain...and reap the current reward...a sick game dominated by greed and those that seek FIRST what they can EXTRACT from the game, rather than true passion for what they can contribute. The economic climate is a convenient excuse; the problems are much deeper than than that.


Cheers,
Kris 8)
« Last Edit: November 30, 2011, 01:33:11 PM by Kris Shreiner »
"I said in a talk at the Dunhill Tournament in St. Andrews a few years back that I thought any of the caddies I'd had that week would probably make a good golf course architect. We all want to ask golfers of all abilities to get more out of their games -caddies do that for a living." T.Doak

Kris Shreiner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bandon Preserve preview.
« Reply #18 on: November 30, 2011, 01:11:05 PM »
Joe,

I'm well aware you have a choice, though I'm not sure that has always been the case. With all respect, you don't understand your own game's history when you make the statements you posted. Tell me where the white suit came from? It was just for TV, huh?

How long has Bandon Dunes been in existence? Thank you. How long have you caddied for a living, and at how many different places?

You enjoy the white suit. Wonderful. I wore a tan one(WAS FORCED) when I worked at Pebble Beach, just down the coast for 11 1/2 years.  A former Director of Golf at your facility, John Grothe, came from Pebble, after having supervised the caddie program, among other duties, there. PB had/has veteran caddies that know the job FAR better than ANYONE who ever was in charge of the program. I know the weather out there VERY well, though I certainly realize that micro-climates impact the variables. Any uniform worth a lick has some utility.

I'll happily go with you to caddie facilities anywhere and we'll put your assertions to the test. I bet ANY amount you wish to wager that the VAST amount(lazy, low-grade caddies who shouldn't even be in there excepted) will prefer dignified, proper fitting apparel with variety to your white, Zoot suit call. Just tell me when you wish to do this and the loser picks up the tab. I'm all ears pards, step up!

Hope the coffee stains didn't hit that white uniform.

Respectfully,
Kris 8)
« Last Edit: November 30, 2011, 01:16:20 PM by Kris Shreiner »
"I said in a talk at the Dunhill Tournament in St. Andrews a few years back that I thought any of the caddies I'd had that week would probably make a good golf course architect. We all want to ask golfers of all abilities to get more out of their games -caddies do that for a living." T.Doak

Ben Sims

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Bandon Preserve preview.
« Reply #19 on: November 30, 2011, 01:51:21 PM »
Back to the subject at hand.  After one play and one tour, I think it's going to be a huge hit.  The variety of shots from 100yds and in is staggering.  80 yd putts, 40 yd bunker shots, blind flops to a green sloping away, it has it all.  It has a weird aesthetic to it--that I like--however.  The eyebrows in the teeboxes and abruptness of some of the dunes around the greens gives it a very "Lord of the Rings" feel. 

Mark Johnson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bandon Preserve preview.
« Reply #20 on: November 30, 2011, 04:38:52 PM »
what is the pricing scheme for BP?  Is it the same as the rest of the courses?

I can see it getting packed at night as people play their 3rd round of free golf.

Michael Essig

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Re: Bandon Preserve preview.
« Reply #21 on: November 30, 2011, 05:01:04 PM »
Mark, I totally agree.  But it could also be your warm-up to a round.  I cannot walk 36 in a day, so booking a morning round here, and an afternoon round on the other courses is an alternative.  That being said, I hope there are a lot of trashcans for the empties on the tee boxes, because it will see a lot of play after dinner when the sun sets at 9:30 in the summer.  Cheers.

Mark Johnson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bandon Preserve preview.
« Reply #22 on: November 30, 2011, 05:10:27 PM »
does anyone have a pic of the routing?   how what is the farthest you are away from the clubhouse?   I can see some players just playing it in an infinite loop at the end of the day.

Michael Essig

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bandon Preserve preview.
« Reply #23 on: November 30, 2011, 05:13:01 PM »
On that note, and a little FYI for those who have not stayed at the course before, be careful of having a room over the bar unless you plan on staying up until the bar's closing at 2:00 am.  Boys will be boys.  Cheers.

Mark Johnson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bandon Preserve preview.
« Reply #24 on: November 30, 2011, 05:13:19 PM »
Two more random Preserve question for any of the Bandon caddies here?

- Are the Bandon caddies upset with this opening?   I assume noone will take caddies on this course so it could mean that some caddies miss a 2nd loop.

- I assume this course will not be rated by the USGA.

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