[jeffwarne]

anybody know of any
pictures?
description?

could they be great if not actually driveable by most club players?

[Mark Saltzman]

13 at Kingsley. Will post more info (or let others) in a bit.

[Bill_McBride]

anybody know of any
pictures?
description?

could they be great if not actually driveable by most club players?

Palmetto #15 is a great example.  Could be as fun a short par 4 as I've seen for a while!  Steep uphill tee shot, very short.  You walk off with your 4, pretty disgruntled.

[jeffwarne]

anybody know of any
pictures?
description?

could they be great if not actually driveable by most club players?

Palmetto #15 is a great example.  Could be as fun a short par 4 as I've seen for a while!  Steep uphill tee shot, very short.  You walk off with your 4, pretty disgruntled.

Bill, Great green there running away from you.
I like the hole (blew a Southern Cross tournament there)
but is it really risk reward?
I've never not hit driver.
You either execute or you don't
OB left forces many into fairway bunker or #1 tee.
but a thoughtful/safe tee shot(edit--I guess you could play left of center if you were really good-and pin was right) doesn't improve angle, just increases your chance of hitting fairway (and makes shot more blind)

[K. Krahenbuhl]

The first ones that I thought of...

17 at Oakmont
1 at Myopia
9 at Chicago Highlands

[Scott Warren]

10 at Royal Melbourne (West) is uphill. Maybe one of the best short fours in the world.


2 at National Golf Links of America.


3 at Fishers Island. No pic, sorry.

All great holes whether driveable or not.

[Tim Martin]

CC of Waterbury-6th Hole-Donald Ross-307 Yds
You need to fly those bunkers on the left or hit a going hook out right of them

[Michael Blake]

#3 at Jeffersonville, my local muni (Ross or McGovern, & Prichard)
I'm sure Joe B has a picture in his archives.

[Bill_McBride]

anybody know of any
pictures?
description?

could they be great if not actually driveable by most club players?

Palmetto #15 is a great example.  Could be as fun a short par 4 as I've seen for a while!  Steep uphill tee shot, very short.  You walk off with your 4, pretty disgruntled.

Bill, Great green there running away from you.
I like the hole (blew a Southern Cross tournament there)
but is it really risk reward?
I've never not hit driver.
You either execute or you don't
OB left forces many into fairway bunker or #1 tee.
but a thoughtful/safe tee shot(edit--I guess you could play left of center if you were really good-and pin was right) doesn't improve angle, just increases your chance of hitting fairway (and makes shot more blind)

I call foul.  You didn't say anything about there having to be this "risk-reward" stuff.    

[jeffwarne]

The first ones that I thought of...

17 at Oakmont
1 at Myopia
9 at Chicago Highlands

17 at Oakmont great example.

Is #1 at Myopia anything other than a short uphill hole?
When I played it, the mystery of the uphill and it being #1 with no warmup made it a 5 wood, but when I got up there it looked like driver would've been the play without a ton of strategy but rather mere execution. (I could be wrong as I've only played it once)

Does the comparative lack of visibility make it a bit harder to design a short par 4 strategically for a first time/one time player?



note:I like uphill holes

Scott,
I've never been a big fan of #2 at National.(but I must say your picture is awesome and makes me rethink)
and definitely fits the definition of risk reward
 Just seems so favorable to big hitters vs others.
Perhaps if the tee was 30 yards back
I've hit the green with 3 wood many times and 5 wood downwind, while my amateurs have to drive into a hole with a horriffic angle to a green running away (or are blind)
There seems to be no risk reward for shorter hitters (no way to take a preferred angle short a la 10 at Riviera or 5 at Long Cove)

I Like #3 at Fishers where distance has to match line taken

What's over the hill at RM

[Kalen Braley]

Indian Canyon has a couple of really good ones.

#8 - Only plays 260 or so on the card but with the uphill, more effectively like 300.  A great risk/reward shot as missing left can lead to massive numbers and missing right will lead to a tough par save.  But hit a nice draw up the hill and its birdie time!!!



#16 - Plays 310 according to the card, but about 330 with the uphill.  A much tougher green to drive, but still doable.  I've seen several players leave it just short of this green in 1.

[Scott Warren]

Jeff Warne:

What's over the hill at RM

The green is tucked behind the bunker to the left, with some native heath between them.

If you watched the recent Pres Cup, this was #6 on the Composite Course.

If I wasn't at work I'd grab an aerial.

[Ed Brzezowski]

Merion number 10, 290 uphill .Wonderfully bunkered that demands a nice little draw over some really nasty native grasses and some fescue. Over power the drive and you are on Ardmore Ave.  Under power the shot and you have a testy bunker shot to a very quick narrow green.

[K. Krahenbuhl]

17 at Oakmont great example.

Is #1 at Myopia anything other than a short uphill hole?
When I played it, the mystery of the uphill and it being #1 with no warmup made it a 5 wood, but when I got up there it looked like driver would've been the play without a ton of strategy but rather mere execution. (I could be wrong as I've only played it once)

The first at Myopia may not have too much strategy required other than if going for it I think you'd want to miss to the low side as the green is small, canted and fast as can be.  It's definitely uphill and certainly drivable at least.

[Eric Smith]

16 at Holston Hills comes to mind as it's a great big 'little' hole and is most certainly uphill. A couple of steep faced bunkers appear to guard the direct route, yet are deceptively placed at about 30-40 yards short of the green and can be carried fairly easily by longer hitters when the wind is cooperating. The hole plays anywhere from 270 - 300+.

I'll have to dig up a picture.

[Tim Gavrich]

The golf course my team practiced at in high school, Simsbury Farms GC in Simsbury, CT, has such a hole: #8, about 300 yards, straight uphill.  It's not a world-class short par 4, but if you try to slam a drive up by the green, trees tighten up on either side of the fairway.  There's a great mound right in the middle of the green that makes the hole play differently one day to the next.  Front pins are fun to attack while when the hole is cut behind the mound, it becomes a tough hole on which to make par.  A few times, I even saw the pin ON TOP of the mound.  

[Mark Saltzman]

Jeff, here are three that came to mind:

Hamilton G&CC, Ancaster, Canada (Colt/Alison) - Pictures and descriptions by Matt Bosela

Hole #5 - 318 Yards Par 4

The shortest par four on the course and it's a beauty!  The hole plays uphill but the green can be reached by the longer hitters.  However, you'll need to challenge the very deep fairway bunkers that protect the entire right side in order to gain access to the green.  Layups are no bargain either, as you'll be faced with a semi-blind approach possibly.  The smart play is taking driver or 3 wood and going left of the green, which really opens up the second shot.  The green is quite large and the view beyond the green is quite spectacular, showing off the wonderful topography at Hamilton.

Tee Shot


Approach Shot from Hillside Left of Fairway


Approach from 50 Yards Left of Green


View Beyond Green, with 10th Fairway in Foreground and 18th Green in Background




Dismal River GC, Mullen, NE

Hole 8: Par 4, 305 Yards

This is a great short par 4.  It is certainly within reach for many who play it from the members tees (probably about 235 yards to the middle of the green on a straight line), but it is a very intimidating shot.  The green is only partially in view because of its uphill nature and a dune that protects the green.  Anything pulled will find a grave in a deep sand pit with a lie that depends a lot on luck.






And, the 13th at Kingsley Club (290 yards)

The 13th is finally here...

This hole can be absolutely dumbfounding.  At 285 yds from the tips, one would think this should be a good opportunity at a shortish birdie putt...but that is rarely the case.

The fairway is huge.  Deciding to go for the green is difficult visually, b/c standing on the tee, you're looking slightly uphill at the green and it's hard to discern what exactly is going on up there.  The fronting bunker immediately grabs your attention.  I would imagine this one grabs quick a few well struck attempts at the green. 

In my limited play, I have never had a go at the green.  This is because, for me, the closer you get to this hole, the worst position you can find yourself in.  Whether it be short-sided, stymied by a vicious bunker, or simply in an aweful place considering the pin position and green contours.

I prefer taking my chances with a 3/4-to-full sand or gap wedge.  It's impossible to explain how many really bad places you can find yourself in around this green.  Your chances of an up and down from some places to certain pin positions in slim to none.

A par is something to cherish on this short little devil.

Of all the holes so far, this one seems to photograph the worst.  It's really hard to get a feel for the drive, the approach, or the green and its surrounds from photos.  As Tim said, you really need to see it to begin to understand it...

Here are some photos from the website:

This might be the most useful picture of the lot


from the Back tees, which if I recall correctly contend with the scrub on the right the most


left angle of front bunker

Other examples:

4 at Gozzer Ranch
2 at Oakmont
12 at Chambers Bay

[Ben Sims]

Bill, Great green there running away from you.
I like the hole (blew a Southern Cross tournament there)
but is it really risk reward?
I've never not hit driver.
You either execute or you don't
OB left forces many into fairway bunker or #1 tee.
but a thoughtful/safe tee shot(edit--I guess you could play left of center if you were really good-and pin was right) doesn't improve angle, just increases your chance of hitting fairway (and makes shot more blind)

The play is whatever it takes to get to the top of the hill.  That may be driver for some folks I guess.  Plus the green is blind from the tee.  Tough to justify driver in my mind.

I think the birdie play is to hit a 3 wood or hybrid.  The driver just brings too much bad juju into play.  I think that's why #15 at PGC is a good risk/reward. 

[M. Shea Sweeney]

5 at Southampton

[jeffwarne]

Mark,
Thanks for those
13 at Kingsley looks cool.

Doesn't the bunkering on #5 at hamilton force the player into the correct angle of approach.
It appears the green is best approached form the left, and that appears to be the only place to hit it (other than the green)
It would seem to the bunkering should be protecting the left for the preferred angle asuming the player could either lay short, carry or otherwise evade the bunker.

Again it would seem to be matter of execution, not strategy .
lose the two bunkers in the foreground on the right, put one in line with the three birches on the left, now you've got something

5 at Southampton
more dictated risk reward than ever, with the carry bunker further back and deeper,
but way less risk with gonga right cleared out.
No reason not to give it a go if you can carry the bunker

[Mike Hendren]

15th at Kinloch
15th at Belle Meade
10th at Wild Dunes

Bogey

[Mark Saltzman]

Doesn't the bunkering on #5 at hamilton force the player into the correct angle of approach.
It appears the green is best approached form the left, and that appears to be the only place to hit it (other than the green)
It would seem to the bunkering should be protecting the left for the preferred angle asuming the player could either lay short, carry or otherwise evade the bunker.

Again it would seem to be matter of execution, not strategy .
lose the two bunkers in the foreground on the right, put one in line with the three birches on the left, now you've got something

Jeff, remember, the hole is only 318 yards from the championship tees.  On a straight line from the member's tees it is probably more like 260 yards to the front of the green.

The ideal approach angle is from the left, but barring a headwind, most players will be trying to get their tee ball somewhere near the green, rendering the approach angle largely irrelevant.

What should change is not the bunkering on the right, but the rough over those bunkers -- I believe it is this rough that will stop some players from trying for the green.  Carrying the bunker (probably about a 230 yard carry) is not rewarded.  No you have something to think about, play it safe to the left (and have the preferred angle), or risk finding those bunkers for the reward of a possible eagle putt.

[Tommy Williamsen]

Number one at Ballyhack is pretty sweet.

http://www.ballyhackgolfclub.com/layout9.asp?id=128&page=2467

[Sam Morrow]

In honor of Mr. McBride I nominate 16 at Pensacola Country Club, very cool hole.

[Patrick Hodgdon]

The 8th at Calusa Pines is an excellent example, 290 yards uphill. A lot of players consider it the best hole on the course.

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