[Joel_Stewart]

One who has the guts to tell a board "you run your business and I will run mine"

This is the wrong answer.  I suspect if you were on the board you would not appreciate it.   Furthermore, in this day and age, I doubt anyone wants to risk getting fired.

[Don_Mahaffey]

...  Furthermore, in this day and age, I doubt anyone wants to risk getting fired.

I've heard that sentiment a lot lately. As in, your lucky to just have a job, better do it my way and be lucky you have a paycheck.
IMO, that attitude, expressing that belief to your employees is counter productive to doing great work, no matter the profession. Does the entire US business world really want a bunch of kiss asses in key positions? Since when was that good business, especially in tough times?

This thread is so screwed up on so many different levels. I guess its better to be a good politician then green keeper. We all knew that's where we've been headed the last few years, and while I agree its always best to act like a gentleman, when the same dumb ass member asks you the same rhetorical question time after time hoping to get a rise out of you, at some point I think its OK to just walk away. I kept hoping someone would simply write as answer like, "give me great golfing conditions as often as possible." John K came the closest, most of the rest of you seem to be more interesting in making sure your super knows who the boss is. Trust me, he knows. But being a gentleman, like loyalty, works best when its a two way street. 

[Chris Johnston]

But being a gentleman, like loyalty, works best when its a two way street. 
[/quote]

Don

I ouldn't agree more!  You know how we operate out here and I think it works very well.  Jagger pretty much has free reign to deliver the course.  I trust him fully.

[Ben Sims]

IMO, that attitude, expressing that belief to your employees is counter productive to doing great work, no matter the profession. Does the entire US business world really want a bunch of kiss asses in key positions? Since when was that good business, especially in tough times?

Don,

Welcome to 2011.  Folks in power will preach individualism, creativity, and autonomy to you in an email or staff meeting.  Twenty minutes later they're finding a replacement for one of their mid-level managers that didn't do it "by the book."  Our society has become more interested in self-preservation than actually producing anything. 

Based on the responses on this thread, it seems many greens chairs around he country have the same attitude.

[Chris Johnston]

IMO, that attitude, expressing that belief to your employees is counter productive to doing great work, no matter the profession. Does the entire US business world really want a bunch of kiss asses in key positions? Since when was that good business, especially in tough times?

Don,

Welcome to 2011.  Folks in power will preach individualism, creativity, and autonomy to you in an email or staff meeting.  Twenty minutes later they're finding a replacement for one of their mid-level managers that didn't do it "by the book."  Our society has become more interested in self-preservation than actually producing anything. 

Based on the responses on this thread, it seems many greens chairs around he country have the same attitude.

Cap't

If you put "Some" before folks, it may be correct.  It certainly isn't "all" as yopu witnessed a few month back firsthand.

A good and efffective Greens Chair works with the Super.  That is byh far the best way to make things work.

[Bill McKinley]

If you're a member at a club or just have an opinion on the matter. 
What would be one or two of the top traits you would like your superintendent to have?

Bill,

What I find comical about your question is the lack of understanding with respect to what a super has to deal with.

Namely, the opinions of 500 members/spouses.
Most of which aren't fact based or knowledge based.

Even on this thread, with supposedly sophisticated GCA afficianados, you'll get different opinions.
So which ones should the super listen to ?
Which one does he listen to when the opinions are in conflict with one another ?

Dial down the water and factions of the membership will be up in arms.
Keep it green and others will be up in arms.

I'll give you a simple question.

In Southeastern Florida, should a super overseed or not overseed ?
Simple question, only two answers, YES or NO.
So, it would seem like an easy decision.

And, it is, if you're a soothsayer and can predict the weather patterns and rainfall.

Irrespective of the decision, you're probably going to annoy 50 % to 75 % of the membership.

Me, I just want knowledge, experience, people skills (for his own defense), efficiency and passion.

Patrick,

I have a pretty good understanding of what a super has to deal with.  I'll just leave it at that.  I realize there are different opinions depending on region, climate and whatever the weather may be and whatnot, but I just asked a question.  It is probably one of the most stressful jobs that I can think of that doesn't involve the military or medical field.

I fully understood that I was going to get many different opionions and many different ideas.

Thanks for your thoughts though 

[Mike_Young]

The only thing I know for sure:
In this economy most of the 16000 golf courses that survive will be mom and pops...and they can survive w/o a golf pro but they better have a good supt whether it is themselves or an employee.  A good one doesn't cost you a dime in a "for profit" club.  The biggest problem many face across the country is that members don't see them like they do the pro .  It's not fair but most know it going in.  It's the most critical job at a course.  IMHO

[Joel_Stewart]

A good and efffective Greens Chair works with the Super.  That is byh far the best way to make things work.
[/quote]

This is very true except they shouldn't stab the other members of the green committee or the members in the back.

The fact is some supers are better then others.  They are able to handle the members and committees and yet get their job done.

There was a post here recently asking architects how they have improved over the years.
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,50174.0.html

The same thing should be asked about superintendents.

[Don_Mahaffey]

Joel,
Why "should" it be asked of Superintendents? While I personally have no issue discussing my personal history or my view of the superintendent profession as a whole, I do have issues with you feeling like you can call us out.

You've used this DG to repeatedly slam your former club and especially their superintendent. And while everyone seems to be calling for professionalism from supers, I found many of your rants to be very unprofessional. Now, you want the supers who participate here to come and play ball with you?

Had the super from your past club come here and slammed you for your outspoken and harsh criticism of his work, I have a feeling he would have been taken to task by the many club members here for being unprofessional. Yet you are free to slam him whenever you want with hardly a peep from these same members. 

[Jim_Coleman]

Grow grass.

[Chris Johnston]

Good Lord.  People stabbing each other in the back?  That is very unhealthy, for the people, the course, and the club.

People with good intentions can disagree and still work together.  It isn't hand to hand combat, here, or at your course.

A member who criticises a Super here, shouldn't be a member.  A Super who criticised his members shouldn't be a super, at least not where he is.

The best result is in support and working together.  Some may think that is "promotion...and it is.  Promoting the good.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Don,

I've sat on numerous green committees for close to 50 years, on boards for over 20 years and have been a green chairman.

My feelings on the subject of Superintendents, green committees and boards are conflicted.

First, I favor dictatorships at clubs

I believe that the most effective form of green committee is when the committee has one member, the chairman.
Successor chairman are groomed and their tenure should be lengthy

Unfortunately, in democratic clubs you need broad based support at the board level, which almost demands that you structure a large green committee in order to gain that support or to diffuse dissension.

I can't begin to tell you how frustrating and time wasting most meetings are.

A green chairman and the Super can probably accomplish more in one tenth the time.

End of rant.

[Don_Mahaffey]

Chris,
i don't see any supers coming here and critising their members. But I do read a lot of criticisms from members about their supers. I think it just demonstrates how hard it is, impossible really, to keep everyone happy. Supers don't work in a vacuum, they usually have some sort of structure that requires them to report to someone about what they plan to do and the desired result. If a member is unhappy with course conditions, they might want to be sure the super isn't doing exactly what he is asked to do before going off on him here or in person.

Patrick,
I've never worked with a large green committee as I've never been a super at a big time private course. But I have worked for resorts and had to sit through many, many meetings that were a complete waste of time.

I think it just goes to show how how much more we expect from a super then just being a good greenkeeper. And I wonder if its really an evolution in the profession. On this thread we read all the things many expect, when really isn't it about providing great golfing turf? Seems odd that part of it is so rarely mentioned, except by those who love their super.

If I had to answer Bill's question, I'd say i want a guy who is honest, motivated, passionate about the game, confident enough to take some chances, good with his crew, and fun to play golf with. Sort of like what you'd want everyone else in your club to be like.   

[Chris Johnston]

Dirt - I agree with you.  Criticising anyone here is completely unnecessary and unproductive. 

Anyone criticising anyone here is bad form.  Member, Super, or fellow participant.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Don,

I'd agree.

Like everything today, the job, or rather the tangential aspects of the job seem more complicated.

I've sat in meetings where some advocated for lush green conditions.
Others advocated that the ball should sit up on the fairway, as if on a tee, while others wanted the turf as tight as a close knit carpet.

The whims of the committee change so quickly and so often that it has to be disheartening to the super.

And, for Supers at clubs that rotate their committee chairs every two years, just when the new chair is getting up to speed, he's replaced by a new chair and the educational process has to start all over again.

Give me dictatorships or oligarchies.

[Jim_Coleman]

    I'm quite surprised that playing golf is deemed a criterion.  Our's doesn't, and he's great.  When it comes to golfy issues, he defers to our direction.  When it comes to growing grass, he is the absolute dictator.  Yes, he has told our membership to go to hell when some object to his drilling and fillling the greens each November.  And he has delivered the best greens we've ever had, year after year.  But when it comes to mowing patterns, bunker depths, tree removal (or, God forbid, tree planting), etc. he defers to our (or our architect/consultant's) expertise.  I think this is the perfect situation.  I'm not sure I'd want a super who thinks he knows more about architecture than informed members.  We didn't hire an architect; we hired a super; and that's the only expertise we should be deferring to.

[Patrick_Mucci]

   I'm quite surprised that playing golf is deemed a criterion.  Our's doesn't, and he's great.  When it comes to golfy issues, he defers to our direction.  When it comes to growing grass, he is the absolute dictator.  Yes, he has told our membership to go to hell when some object to his drilling and fillling the greens each November.  And he has delivered the best greens we've ever had, year after year.  But when it comes to mowing patterns, bunker depths, tree removal (or, God forbid, tree planting), etc. he defers to our (or our architect/consultant's) expertise.  I think this is the perfect situation.  I'm not sure I'd want a super who thinks he knows more about architecture than informed members.  We didn't hire an architect; we hired a super; and that's the only expertise we should be deferring to.

Jim,

Would you go to a marriage counselor who's never been married ?

A sex therapist who's never had sex ?

I think the experience/understanding of "playability" is an asset

[JMEvensky]

   I'm quite surprised that playing golf is deemed a criterion.  Our's doesn't, and he's great.  When it comes to golfy issues, he defers to our direction.  When it comes to growing grass, he is the absolute dictator.  Yes, he has told our membership to go to hell when some object to his drilling and fillling the greens each November.  And he has delivered the best greens we've ever had, year after year.  But when it comes to mowing patterns, bunker depths, tree removal (or, God forbid, tree planting), etc. he defers to our (or our architect/consultant's) expertise.  I think this is the perfect situation.  I'm not sure I'd want a super who thinks he knows more about architecture than informed members.  We didn't hire an architect; we hired a super; and that's the only expertise we should be deferring to.

JC,I don't think it's critical,but it helps.

A lot of the problems,IMO,are just communication.If a Super does play,he and the powers that be can have a conversation in the same language.

[Tim Nugent]

As a GCA, clients have asked "do you design the Clubhouse too?" to which the reply is "Not even if I could".  Then I have to explain that designing a clubhouse is an exercise on par with designing a house for someone who can't afford it but since he has 300 buddies footing the bill....
Reading the responses to this thread just reinforces why I would never want to be a super (unless I owned the course) or a member of a Club.  While you can please some of the people some of the time, you can never please all of the people all of the time.  Supers live in a world of Dammed if you Do and Dammed if you Don't.  Perhaps that's why you have so many young supers.  The burn out rate is high.  Sure, the hours can be long but the real reason most leave the profession is they just can't take dealing with the members.  I don't know why it has occured but it seems to me that lately people are going out of their way to find something to complain about. Hopefully, soon that half-empty glass will become half-full again.

[Steve Okula]

For every person who feels sorry for a super I can show you 100 supers who feel sorry for themselves.

Really? You know 100 supers who all feel sorry for themselves?

Do you work at an unemployment office?

[John Kavanaugh]

For every person who feels sorry for a super I can show you 100 supers who feel sorry for themselves.

Really? You know 100 supers who all feel sorry for themselves?

Do you work at an unemployment office?

Yes I do, if not so much in the Biblical sense.  Would you say the following qualifies as feeling sorry for ones self? "I all but stopped playing my own course. I’m sometimes out there working for thirty days straight, and when I do have a little free time, I need a change of scene. Besides that, I have a family with small children, and I’m not giving up my limited time with them to go back out and play the same course I know like the back of my hand.  It’s much more interesting to go play someone else’s course, where I might learn something useful."  I got 99 more but Jagger ain't one.

[John Kirk]

The Superintedent at my home course is a good friend.  As JK says, it's a tough gig, long hours, few rounds played, and twenty times more criticism than praise.  The conventional wisdom is so negative, and my course was in spectacular shape this year.  Firm, green, flowery and fast.

[Kalen Braley]

I think Chris J has the best picture here.

Its like any healthy relationship where people need to work together as a team, there is mutual respect, expectations are set from all parties involved, and open lines of communication are the rule, (both for good or bad).  I don't think there are any jaw dropping secrets above and beyond having a good working relationship with everyone.

[SL_Solow]

The problem with this thread is that it asks the wrong question.  The question should be, "what do you expect from your Board of Directors?Greens Committee?Greens Chair?  As one who has served in those capacities for more than 15 years and who presents seminars to greens committees , I can assure you that the vast majority of superintendents can present the membership with a course that is maintained in a fashion consistent with their directions.  Like any profession, some will be more skilled than others and some will handle difficult conditions in a superior fashion.  Some will be better communicators and some will be nicer people.  Some will treat their crews better than others.  But in the end, the budgets they are given and the standards that are set by the club will have the greatest influence on how the course is maintained.  If the members don't want an overwatered wall to wall green look they won't get one for long.  But if those seeking firm and fast conditions are in the minority, it is unlikely they will get what they want because  the Super is obliged to take his direction from the power structure.  Some are strong enough to try and convince their membership to change its views and occasionally they can pull it off.  But in a time when jobs are contracting and schools are churning out more qualified young people trained in agronomy, Supers eventually give the customer what he wants.  So if you want to change things, educate your Board and get a strong, well informed Greens Chair.  Then your Super will have a chance and  you will find out how good he can be.

[Steve Okula]

For every person who feels sorry for a super I can show you 100 supers who feel sorry for themselves.

Really? You know 100 supers who all feel sorry for themselves?

Do you work at an unemployment office?

Yes I do, if not so much in the Biblical sense.  Would you say the following qualifies as feeling sorry for ones self? "I all but stopped playing my own course. I’m sometimes out there working for thirty days straight, and when I do have a little free time, I need a change of scene. Besides that, I have a family with small children, and I’m not giving up my limited time with them to go back out and play the same course I know like the back of my hand.  It’s much more interesting to go play someone else’s course, where I might learn something useful."  I got 99 more but Jagger ain't one.

A super who doesn't play golf a lot must be indulging in self-pity? That's one hell of a broad interpretation.

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