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Scott Warren

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Why is Yale so unjustly overlooked? (pictures/discussion)
« on: November 24, 2011, 06:33:47 AM »
One of the downsides of the "family" of template holes Macdonald and Raynor built -- particularly their quartet of par threes -- is the ease with which those like holes are compared.

As a result, the discussion of some fantastic holes will be framed negatively because of a direct comparison to the Redan at National, Short at Fishers Island or Biarritz at Yale, whereas the same hole were it not a template would be discussed only in terms of its own merits.

An example of that is an analysis of Yale's par threes such as this from Darius Oliver's fantastic "Planet Golf USA" book:

"Interestingly, the par threes here are the same foursome found at the nearby Fishers Island Club, and again they show the limits of imitation versus creation. Although the Short, Redan and Eden holes are quite good, they are not among Raynor’s best and these replicas do get less interesting the more of them you see."

Were the Short 5th, Redan 13th and Eden 15th three unnamed holes by another architect, they would be discussed for their many strengths instead of compared to some of the best holes in golf.

When talk turns to underrated and underappreciated golf courses, Yale deserves to be the first topic of conversation.

The course is filled with unique and memorable holes and features.



The 1st hole is a fairly sedate par four (410/383 yards) until you reach the bold green that sets the stage for the rest of the putting surfaces that follow. It's a fantastic way to start the round.



The 2nd is shorter (374/344), but ratchets up the drama at the green, with the left-hand bunkers sitting a good 15-20ft below the surface. With a pin toward the back, it seems the chance of dunking the ball into purgatory becomes greater.



I'm informed that only two greens on the course have been altered from what Raynor designed -- this at the 3rd (411/379) and the 16th. What used to be a double punchbowl that was partially visible if you drove close to the water is now a pancake that's blind whether you thread it down the right or heave one weakly to the left.



The 4th (437/426) asks you to drive long into a narrow neck between water and forest, before a slightly uphill mid-iron to a deceptively steep green. This might be an example of holes being named for the sake of it, because there's not much similarity here to the original Road Hole or to other MacRaynor templates I've played, but still a very good hole.


Only one (fairly poor) photo of the Short hole, the 5th (147/138). It looks better from the tee, but this still shows what a great, tiny target is presented, with the green here sloping more than it appears, like at the 5th.


The 6th (421/349) seems to me to set up far better from the back tee than the forward tee. From back there, it is almost 260 yards to the corner of the dogleg (guarded inside by a snaking creek), where from the forward tee it's just 180 yards and it's too easy to club a drive to within wedge range of a fairly flat green. Not among the best holes on the course, but we're about to enter one of the finest stretches in golf.



Remarkable that all of this 7th hole (377/359) and the next are completely manufactured, raised up above what was originally a swampy wetland. More remarkable still that such dramatic construction was carried out in the mid-1920s. This is a fantastic hole, largely for the demanding approach and slick green. Even after Irene and Lee had passed through within a few weeks of my round here, a 10ft putt from above the green was fairly nerve-wracking.




Here's a hole they just don't build anymore at the 8th (406/383). The drive gets less attention than the approach and recoveries because of how bold and fun the green is, but the tee shot still has a lot in it, with the chance to cut the corner and shorten the approach or play further right and hope to end up in "Raynor's Notch" -- a channel cut from the hill that allows a precious view of the green. The kickpad on the right of the gren is another great feature that is more useful from the left than from the right. Finally, the bunkers are even more savage than those flanking the 2nd green. In all, this us just one of those great holes you could play from sunup to sundown with a smile on your face.



We finally made it to the 9th (213/196)! When I was about 13 years old and had just fallen for the game of golf in a big way my grandad had a book called "How To Play Par Threes". It featured about 10 of the world's best one-shotters and the author played them with the club pro, who detailed the smart way to play the hole for different levels of player. I immediately noticed there was something cool about this hole and -- 10,000 miles away in country Australia -- lamented the fact I would never play it. But then this wonderful thing called GCA.com happened and lo and behold I was standing on the tee here with a club in hand and butterflies in my stomach. There's not much to say that hasn't already been said, but I will say there is no way a photo can do this setting or the green justice. It's a marvellous hole.



Golf doesn't come more dramatic than the 10th (396/360). A drive over a ridge to a blind landing area, an approach 40ft or so uphill, a green with a steep slope between tiers. One I'd have described as "a love/hate hole" if I had ever met a single person who doesn't love it!


At Yale, I highly recommend playing the Tom Dunne Composite Course. On that course you opt for the front tee at the 11th (379/340), from which this is a great short par four that brings the bunkers 50 yards short of the green into play from the tee, and look how brilliantly that left-hand trap blends into the exposed rockface. The right-hand line can be a great option to sneak up on the green from the tee, but if you're shorter off the tee than you expected it can present an awkward second shot.




Regrettable as the inevitable comparison of sibling holes is, Darius was not wrong when he wrote that the Short, Redan and Eden at Yale aren't the holes that their siblings in Long and Fishers islands are. But he also failed to make mention of the Alps 12th (400/350), which for my money is deserving of discussion alongside National's version of the template. The green is among the best on the course, two tiers positioned side-by-side, making for a tough two-putt if you find yourself on the wrong level of the green, which is completely blind from the driving zone. Even with a wedge in hand it's a tough shot, so I can't imagine the difficulty with pre-WW2 equipment.


I'll concede the the 13th (212/196) doesn't look much like a Redan from the tee, but the green has all you could ask for, including a false front (?!) that may detract from its Redan-esque qualities (Redanishness? Redanocity?), but gives the hole another talking point. Perhaps despite not being among the best Redans in the family, his is an example of the fact that -- like the 4th at Riviera -- a hole doesn't need to look faithfully like the 4th at National or the 15th at North Berwick to share some of what is great about playing those holes.


At 365/343 yards, the 14th (Knoll) is the perfect length (pic your tee) for the challenge presented by the drive, which asks you to try to drive as far around the dogleg and you can -- aided by the steep slope down the left to try to end up with as flat a lie as possible for the approach. This isn't a green you want to be playing a mid iron to. Right? Bad. Left? Bad. Short? Bad. Long? Yep, bad and wet. To add to the difficulty, there's  every chance your second shot will be played from a lie that slopes both downhill and to the right. Just another example of distance being only one way to built difficulty and far from the best way to generate interest.


15th hole (190/165) is a great little Eden hole that does a good job of replicating a few of the features of the original in as different a setting as you could get. As with several of the earlier holes, the green is far slicker than it appears, putting an even greater premium on ensuring you stay below the hole.


Unfortunately, owing to my decision to duck into the clubhouse to grab a sandwich before we set off, the three of us got stuck behind a ridiculously slow fourball and as a result, we were caught by the most glacial golfer I have ever come across (no surprise he was playing alone...) by the 8th. We asked him to play through, he said he'd prefer to join us, and that is how we got to spend a little time with Lee. Well, as a result of that we had only made it to the 16th (553/474) by the time the rain grew tired of holding offand dumped on us. If we'd gone off before that fourball, we'd have been done by then, no doubt. We percivered through the 16th, but it had become impossible to swing the club, so we walked the last two holes and didn't play them. My memories of the 16th are probably sullied by the weather (and the realisation it was my fault we were copping it), but it seemed to offer less than the rest of the course and brought an end to the scintilating run from 7 to 15.


The uphill drive over a dam at the 17th (437/395) is fairly severe and scary, but at the length this hole plays, the Principal's Nose bunker complex 40-70 yards short of the Double Plateau green is perfectly placed and I was gutted I didn't get a chance to pit myself against it.


The 18th (621/542) is another unique hole that defies description. Twice blind, plenty of elevation change, alternate routes... damn that sandwich to hell! It sure was fun to walk, even in Biblical rain.

Yale deserves more than it receives in terms of discussion and rankings. It's as unique and fun as any course I have played, packed with variety and a must-play for any visitor to the north-east of the US.

Lee was last seen grinding over a 20-footer for double bogey on the 16th as the green flooded around him. Seriously.
« Last Edit: November 24, 2011, 07:50:52 AM by Scott Warren »

Mark_F

Re: Why is Yale so unjustly overlooked? (pictures/discussion)
« Reply #1 on: November 24, 2011, 06:56:07 AM »
Looks like a pretty wild ride, Scott. 

That step in the 10th green looks taller than whomever is walking towards the flag!

Ronald Montesano

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Re: Why is Yale so unjustly overlooked? (pictures/discussion)
« Reply #2 on: November 24, 2011, 06:58:41 AM »
Scott,

I've not played the other renowned template courses, but what I knew from GCA and my one round at Fox Chapel hardly prepared me for Yale. The drives on 1 and 17 are beastly tough from the back tees. Remember that the course only plays about 6700 yards from the tips, so the tips are within the hitting capacity of more golfers.

The first green, site of a three-putt from a ball that just hung on the edge of the cliff (the pin was back left) did two things...made me smile at my 6 and opened my mind to what was ahead of me.

Yale is oversized, and never in a bad way. Like many courses, having a prior walk around makes all the difference for me. Despite admonitions on the part of my partners, I still thought #3 went left, not right, and put myself in some trouble (still made 5, I believe.)

We had a group hot on our heals, or we would have had time to putt around on #9. That was OK, because playing #10 and finding my ball on the same (back) tier as the flag was worth the missed practice time.

In a world that values impeccable conditioning, Yale will lose points. In my world, it never will.

http://course.bluegolf.com/bluegolf/course/course/yalegc/aerial.htm

and

http://thecourseatyale.org/yardage_book.htm
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Scott Warren

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Re: Why is Yale so unjustly overlooked? (pictures/discussion)
« Reply #3 on: November 24, 2011, 07:04:38 AM »
Ronald,

The conditioning point is a great one. I am sure that has a great effect on some folks' view of the course.

In reality, it's as good as it needs to be.

Sean_A

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Re: Why is Yale so unjustly overlooked? (pictures/discussion)
« Reply #4 on: November 24, 2011, 07:39:50 AM »
Interesting thoughts concerning the conditioning.  In this, Yale rather reminds me of Cavendish in that I really wonder if the course was properly dried out and firm if it wouldn't effectively be too narrow.  I can see a lot of trouble out there after the ball lands if there is nothing to hold it up. 

Scott - thanks for the pix.  Yale is quite high on my list of courses to see and your tour only reinforces why.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Joe Bausch

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Re: Why is Yale so unjustly overlooked? (pictures/discussion)
« Reply #5 on: November 24, 2011, 07:43:30 AM »
I'd like to disagree with what you said Scott, but pretty much all the facts are on your side!

Yale is a blast.
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

John Shimp

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Re: Why is Yale so unjustly overlooked? (pictures/discussion)
« Reply #6 on: November 24, 2011, 08:00:59 AM »
Agree that conditioning holds it back. Maybe more damning is that its not an exclusive private club or a resort destination. In the US ratings those are the courses that tend to rate high particularly at the very top of these lists. 

Scott Warren

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Re: Why is Yale so unjustly overlooked? (pictures/discussion)
« Reply #7 on: November 24, 2011, 08:07:38 AM »
Brian,

There wasn't much run to be had, but considering the course is on heavy soil and the previous month had brought a hurricane and a tropical storm, as well as rainfall in their wakes, I guess that's neither a surprise nor a damning indictment.

I absolutely must go back to Yale the next time I am within 300 miles. It's as simple as that.

John Mayhugh

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Re: Why is Yale so unjustly overlooked? (pictures/discussion)
« Reply #8 on: November 24, 2011, 08:09:40 AM »
Thanks for the tour, Scott. Really sorry that you didn't get to play 18. I'm not sure it's a great hole, but it is an adventure.

Yale was the first great course I ever played, and as much as anywhere inspired my interest in golf course architecture.  Other than the biarritz, I don't even think of any of the other holes in terms of templates - they are just golf holes that are bold, fun, & challenging.

Jud_T

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Re: Why is Yale so unjustly overlooked? (pictures/discussion)
« Reply #9 on: November 24, 2011, 08:10:11 AM »
Scott,

Thanks for posting.  Only played the course once in the mid 90's and definitely need to get back.  If this club were private, faithfully restored and maintained at the highest level, it's hard to believe it wouldn't give some of the upper tier a run for their money.
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Scott Warren

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Re: Why is Yale so unjustly overlooked? (pictures/discussion)
« Reply #10 on: November 24, 2011, 08:18:11 AM »
I think you're right Jud, especially in the "fully restored" aspect.

The 3rd and 16th are definite flat spots on the course that -- crucially, IMO -- reduce the quality off the opening and closing stretches. First and last impressions are hard to look past for many people.

Mark Pearce

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Re: Why is Yale so unjustly overlooked? (pictures/discussion)
« Reply #11 on: November 24, 2011, 08:19:47 AM »
It's bloody brilliant.  When I played there they'd just held the NCAA Eastern Division Finals (or something) and the greens were absurdly fast (I had 24 putts on the front 9 and chips on most too, before getting the hang of them) but it was great fun.  Shame you didn't get to play 18, it's a blast.
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Tim Martin

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Re: Why is Yale so unjustly overlooked? (pictures/discussion)
« Reply #12 on: November 24, 2011, 08:59:36 AM »
It's bloody brilliant.  When I played there they'd just held the NCAA Eastern Division Finals (or something) and the greens were absurdly fast (I had 24 putts on the front 9 and chips on most too, before getting the hang of them) but it was great fun.  Shame you didn't get to play 18, it's a blast.

Mark-I think you caught the course at it`s absolute best as I played the week after the NCAA as well. I don`t recall the greens being that fast and had the same struggles as you. I remember having a birdie putt on the 14 Knoll to a front left pin where I was pin high right and I ended up at the bottom of the hill off the green. The birdie try could not have been more than 15 feet. A good ball striking round can get turned into a nightmare on those greens as I think they were stimping out around 12 which is certainly at the limit. That didn`t stop a young freshman from the University of Texas named Cody Gribble from shooting 63 in the first round-ouch!

Tim Martin

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Re: Why is Yale so unjustly overlooked? (pictures/discussion)
« Reply #13 on: November 24, 2011, 09:18:33 AM »
Ronald,

The conditioning point is a great one. I am sure that has a great effect on some folks' view of the course.

In reality, it's as good as it needs to be.

Scott-Fantastic photo tour and analysis. You really did your due diligence as the reference on #8 to Raynor`s Notch implies. I need fast and firm conditions to find that spot with the drive and it is a glorious vantage point to one of my favorite approaches on the course. As to the conditioning, people that played this year have to remember that Yale took on more rain than anyone can ever recall. Scott Ramsay is diligently addressing drainage issues as he goes forward but was certainly outmatched by mother nature this year. As far as 3 and 16 green go I too would like to see them restored back to their original positions and dimensions. That said they are still pretty solid holes, especially # 3. The greens are back to their original dimensions requiring a large number of heads that are now visibly on the putting surfaces to be removed. The transformation since Scott Ramsay has come on board in 2003 has been remarkable and will only get better if the master plan continues to be carried out.

Scott Warren

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Re: Why is Yale so unjustly overlooked? (pictures/discussion)
« Reply #14 on: November 24, 2011, 09:32:46 AM »
Tim,

Thanks for the kind words.

From talking to a few folks who knew the course going back 10-15 years, it seems you members are fortunate to have the Super you have doing the work he is doing. I'm sure it will continue to improve even further.

If I am not mistaken, wasn't it GCA's own Noel "Tuco" Freeman who coined the term "Raynor's Notch"?

Tim Martin

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Re: Why is Yale so unjustly overlooked? (pictures/discussion)
« Reply #15 on: November 24, 2011, 09:40:37 AM »
Tim,

Thanks for the kind words.

From talking to a few folks who knew the course going back 10-15 years, it seems you members are fortunate to have the Super you have doing the work he is doing. I'm sure it will continue to improve even further.

If I am not mistaken, wasn't it GCA's own Noel "Tuco" Freeman who coined the term "Raynor's Notch"?

Scott- The hope is that Scott Ramsay stays forever but because of the work he has done at Yale his star is certainly on the rise. As far as Raynor`s Notch I believe that the term goes back much farther than Noel as I am pretty sure that it was referenced in the book Golf at Yale that came out a few years year`s ago which I have and will try to find the reference.

Ian Andrew

Re: Why is Yale so unjustly overlooked? (pictures/discussion)
« Reply #16 on: November 24, 2011, 09:54:55 AM »
Yale operates on a scale that few courses can match. The site was difficult, the build must have been brutal and yet in my opinion the course really embraces the massive undulation of the property. The scale of bunkers, width of holes and undulations in the green fit the setting. I’m in awe of how massive a swing for the fences this course was.

Why doesn’t it get love?

I think it struggles more from holes like the 10th, 12th and 18th where many players just can’t wrap their head around the concepts. They hate the blindness and complain about the complexity of the shots. You need a sense of adventure to embrace those holes, anyone who loves to shoot a score usually lacks the sense of humor required for the back nine.

Scott Warren

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Re: Why is Yale so unjustly overlooked? (pictures/discussion)
« Reply #17 on: November 24, 2011, 10:00:34 AM »
That's a fair point re: the blindness, Ian. Thanks for contributing.

I agree the scale is remarkable, as is the way in which the built features -- to steal a phrase from your post -- "embrace the massive undulation".

Smaller, shallower, flatter on that land would have looked insipid.

It really is a bold statement.

And I really can't fathom how hard it must have been to blast the rock and move so much dirt in the 1920s!

Michael Whitaker

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Re: Why is Yale so unjustly overlooked? (pictures/discussion)
« Reply #18 on: November 24, 2011, 11:00:48 AM »
Scott,

Yale's 9th hole has the potential to wreck any round and playing it successfully is one of the great joys in golf.

Concerning the NCAA Regional that was played at Yale... how would you like to have the course record in hand with only the 9th hole remaining to play? It could be a glorious way to finish off a dream round... or, it could turn into a nightmare disaster:

http://www.golfweek.com/comments/cr/91/12602/
« Last Edit: November 25, 2011, 09:28:11 AM by Michael Whitaker »
"Solving the paradox of proportionality is the heart of golf architecture."  - Tom Doak (11/20/05)

Dave Falkner

Re: Why is Yale so unjustly overlooked? (pictures/discussion)
« Reply #19 on: November 24, 2011, 11:56:36 AM »
ouch!

Rory Connaughton

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Re: Why is Yale so unjustly overlooked? (pictures/discussion)
« Reply #20 on: November 24, 2011, 11:58:53 AM »
Scott and Ian have seized on something that I felt during my first visit (thanks to the kind hospitality of Tim Martin). The scale of the place is remarkable and any course that failed to reflect that scale would have been a missed opportunity.  I'm not sure if my experience is unique but I found that the scale, coupled with some good width and, for the most part greens that fit the scale of the property may have lulled me into a false sense of security.  I felt free to swing for the fences with driver and by and large kept the ball in play without too much difficulty  but to really have shot a good score, I needed to be much more precise on approach shots.  Hitting greens wasn't the issue as much as failing to concentrate on how precise the shot needed to be to get close enough to ensure a reasonable birdie putt.  With their massive scale, one can be hitting lots of greens but still have miles and miles to go. 

What also struck me about the scale of the course was that despite its massive feel, I did not feel much distance pressure. Part of that was because the course was playing firm but other than 4 (depending on how you chose to play the hole) and 9 depending on he hole location, I think the course is very playable for short hitters as well as long.

I have never heard criticism of the course from anyone and that includes conditioning. I think many people understand that it is a university course and do not expect conditions like those you would find at a private club with a similar pedigree.  With that said, my sense is that the people that seek Yale out are going because they expect to find something special.  Perhaps there is a universe of golfers that play the course and don't appreciate it but I can't imagine anyone with a broad range of experience not coming away impressed.

As far as rankings, perhaps the course would be ranked higher with more refined maintenance  (he maintenance is not bad) but I think that would actually rob the place of some of its charm. It is certainly one of he top 20 courses I have ever played (maybe higher) and I know many who feel the same way. 

One of the more entertaining formats I have ever seen is employed by GCA'ers Will Smith and Colin Sheehan during the 27 hole alternate shot event they host each fall at Yale.  At the end of the day, ever group in the competition assembles on the 9th tee.  It is the only hole in the competition where both partners hit a tee shot.  The entire field plays to a back flag before moving en masse to the green. I have never seen a larger variety of shots employed to get to that back pin.  From big cut drivers landing on the back shelf to low running irons that hit the front and run through the swale to the back ad everything in between.

Perhaps the biggest compliment that I can pay to Yale is that both times I have played it, I started smiling and laughing on the first tee and continued to do so through the 18th green.  There are few courses that I enjoy more.

Ben Voelker

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Re: Why is Yale so unjustly overlooked? (pictures/discussion)
« Reply #21 on: November 24, 2011, 12:32:52 PM »
I was fortunate enough to make it to Yale this October with a few GCA members.  From my experience, more than anything your irons have to be spot on.  It was so easy to miss an iron by 10 yards and have either, a.) a really difficult chip or b.) an incredibly intimidating chip or putt.  And if you're off that day, you'd better have some idea where you are going to miss because its definitely better to hit a good shot that misses in the right spot than to hit a bad shot and miss in the wrong spot.

For example, I missed 2 in the right bunker from the middle of the fairway and was hitting the recovery to a green sloping away right towards 15 foot deep bunkers.  I have probably never felt more intimidated on a single shot than I did on that one, and naturally lost my shot over the green into one of the pits on the other side.  That was one of many such shots.  It was amazing how much pressure a 6,100 yard course could put on a golfer.

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Why is Yale so unjustly overlooked? (pictures/discussion)
« Reply #22 on: November 24, 2011, 12:37:46 PM »
Scott,
 
A possible reason is that the course was in poor condition for many years and it wasn't until recently that some reclamation work was done.

The geat Geoff Childs, tried for years to get the University to polish/restore the gem it had, but, his pleas fell on deaf ears for a long, long while.

Sven Nilsen

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Re: Why is Yale so unjustly overlooked? (pictures/discussion)
« Reply #23 on: November 24, 2011, 01:14:19 PM »
Great write-up Scott.  For a piece of property that feels like you're in a forest, the trees really aren't ever an issue.  Seems like Yale is one example of fantastic maintenance of the playing corridors.
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Ronald Montesano

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Re: Why is Yale so unjustly overlooked? (pictures/discussion)
« Reply #24 on: November 24, 2011, 02:19:00 PM »
yaah, understand that when I mentioned conditioning, I was reaching for a "it's not Augusta flawless, so I'll dock it points" perspective. Yale gave me the opportunity to head to #17 tee at +4 for the day, make 6 there (tough green to putt, forget about the Principal's Nose) and then to 18, where a soaring and crushed 3-metal from the left side was only "good enough" to get grabbed by the native grasses on top of the mountain. Literally, two inches higher and I believe I would have been down the hill, in front of the green. Instead, I was playing from the fescue, on my way to another double and a score of 80 or some such. I can empathize with Wes Bryan, as the course rewarded, then revealed, me.
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!