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Peter Pallotta

Re: Why is Yale so unjustly overlooked? (pictures/discussion)
« Reply #25 on: November 24, 2011, 02:43:25 PM »
Scott - thanks much, as always an excellent and insightful tour.  (You guys, with John M and Sean A and RDM and a few others I'm missing are really really good at what you do.  Have you ever considered pooling your resources and experience and combining all the excellent photos and commentary in one place?  The neat thing is that each of you brings a different perspective but all of you have very sound and perceptive perspectives).  You had me from your first line, which I think states so clearly something that is, in retrospect, so obvious and yet not often enough given its due, i.e. that the 'baggage' that comes with templates is the ease with which they are compared. (Said comparisons are, btw, the bane of my existence - since the very act of making them ignores another obvious fact, i.e. that we actually play and experience golf one golf hole at a time, one golf course at a time, and on one very different piece of land at a time.  We who say we love the art-craft of gca should be, I'd think, the last people who'd want to cherry-pick the 'best of', seemingly independent of time, place and circumstance -- and yet we more than most do exactly that all the time. There's a 'hungry ghost' quality to that approach that isn't very appealing)

Thanks again
Peter

Sean_A

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Re: Why is Yale so unjustly overlooked? (pictures/discussion)
« Reply #26 on: November 24, 2011, 03:09:01 PM »
I find it very interesting there is a virtual lack of fairway bunkers - I count only a few.  I don't know the history of Yale, but I find it also interesting that there is a mishmash of bunkering near the greens.  My only Raynor visit has been Yeamans and the bunkering there strikes me as 1) much more demanding and 2) the greens shaped to make the bunkers more in play.  I see there are still Yeaman-like bunkers at Yale, was the bunker style more like Yeamans at one point and if so is there any talk of a restoration?

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Joel_Stewart

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Re: Why is Yale so unjustly overlooked? (pictures/discussion)
« Reply #27 on: November 24, 2011, 03:10:06 PM »
I'm not sure I agree with the caption that it's overlooked.  Both Golf Magaine and GolfWeek have it rated in it's top 100.  Golf Digest does not.  I've tried for years to get panelists to go yet it doesn't seem to fit the mold for a GD top 100 course.

There are a variety of reasons for this, but most of it boils down to things already discussed, conditioning and quirk.  Add in that it's a difficult walk for some GD panelists and that the staff at Yale doesn't show any love for panelists it kind of ends up way outside the top 100.

Chris Johnston

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Re: Why is Yale so unjustly overlooked? (pictures/discussion)
« Reply #28 on: November 24, 2011, 03:59:42 PM »
I absolutely love the routing at Yale.  For me, one of the best.

wrt conditioning, the last time I played it was very wet.  Don't know if it was too much irrigation or something normal for the site.  With less water, it would be in my top 20.

Scott Warren

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Re: Why is Yale so unjustly overlooked? (pictures/discussion)
« Reply #29 on: November 24, 2011, 05:47:59 PM »
Joel:

Quote
Both Golf Magaine and GolfWeek have it rated in it's top 100.  Golf Digest does not.  I've tried for years to get panelists to go yet it doesn't seem to fit the mold for a GD top 100 course.

I know Golf Mag has it near the back end of its Top 100 US list. I'm thinking it should perhaps be a candidate for the Top 100 World list!

Quote
Add in that it's a difficult walk for some GD panelists and that the staff at Yale doesn't show any love for panelists it kind of ends up way outside the top 100.

Do GD panelists have greater difficulty walking than the rest of us? ;D

It's sad that being "shown love" -- or not -- by a facility affects a panelist's views.

Mike Sweeney

Re: Why is Yale so unjustly overlooked? (pictures/discussion)
« Reply #30 on: November 24, 2011, 07:35:56 PM »

Do GD panelists have greater difficulty walking than the rest of us? ;D

It's sad that being "shown love" -- or not -- by a facility affects a panelist's views.

Scott

Nice review.

My last round at Yale was with a 60 year old woman who carried her own bag. Besides being a unique course, it is also a unique membership. For a bunch of non-golf reasons, she is now a friend for life. I appreciate that Yale lets me be a member as a non-alumnus.

Jim_Kennedy

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Re: Why is Yale so unjustly overlooked? (pictures/discussion)
« Reply #31 on: November 24, 2011, 08:53:52 PM »
I played Yale for the first time about 25 years ago and it had quite a few issues when it came to conditioning. The last time I played it (about my 25th time) was about two weeks ago in a fundraiser for junior golf in Ct., and I'd say that Scott Ramsay has flipped it around quite well.

I agree that the #1 reason it got overlooked in the past was conditioning.

#2 - Blind shots - Yale has a dozen fully or semi-blind field shots.

#3 - The greens - The course has 8 of them that contain the type of undulations that a putter like Walter Travis would have loved,  but many modern players do not.

#4 - Terrain - Wild in places, and living on the edge of the fairways is not a good way to play Yale.

#5 - Tough recoveries and nasty bunkers (even though they are 'tame' in comparison to what was originally there). 


The reasons it shouldn't be overlooked:
 
#1 - Scott Ramsay
#'s 2,3,4 and 5  - See 2, 3, 4 and 5 above 

 
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Dave Falkner

Re: Why is Yale so unjustly overlooked? (pictures/discussion)
« Reply #32 on: November 24, 2011, 09:14:47 PM »
Geez  Mike I know I hacked it around  but  a "60 year old woman"?  Thats low!

Tim Martin

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Re: Why is Yale so unjustly overlooked? (pictures/discussion)
« Reply #33 on: November 24, 2011, 09:36:43 PM »
Geez  Mike I know I hacked it around  but  a "60 year old woman"?  Thats low!

Dave-That zig zag putt on 10 will put fear into the bravest of the brave, no?

James Boon

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Re: Why is Yale so unjustly overlooked? (pictures/discussion)
« Reply #34 on: November 25, 2011, 03:44:06 AM »
Scott,

Great write up and pictures. I like the look of Yale a lot, and some of it for some reasons reminds me of Notts, can't quite put my finger on it, maybe the movement of the land?

I like your story regarding the 9th and the book "How To Play Par Threes". I'm pretty sure I had that as a kid, though I checked my library last night and couldn't see it. I remember it, because I'm sure I had previously heard of all the courses but not Yale, and the idea of this par 3 over water, to a green that had a massive valley through the middle just seemed nuts!

Cheers,

James

ps Sean, I can't comment on Yale regarding firming up and width, but I can agree with you on Cavendish! When I was younger, I used to play Cavendish a lot in the summer and it was always much firmer and faster than these past few years, which certainly made it a much tougher proposition!
2023 Highlights: Hollinwell, Brora, Parkstone, Cavendish, Hallamshire, Sandmoor, Moortown, Elie, Crail, St Andrews (Himalayas & Eden), Chantilly, M, Hardelot Les Pins

"It celebrates the unadulterated pleasure of being in a dialogue with nature while knocking a ball round on foot." Richard Pennell

Scott Warren

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Re: Why is Yale so unjustly overlooked? (pictures/discussion)
« Reply #35 on: November 25, 2011, 04:59:39 AM »
James,

In a strange way, it is quite an English golf course. Maybe like the offspring of Addington and Huntercombe? Maybe that's a slightly abstract comparison, but I do think anyone who is fond of olde worlde English inland courses couldn't fail to LOVE Yale.

The belt-notchers might not make it a priority, but for me it is as much a must play as anything else I've seen in the NE United States.

Mark Pearce

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Re: Why is Yale so unjustly overlooked? (pictures/discussion)
« Reply #36 on: November 25, 2011, 06:41:36 AM »
Mark-I think you caught the course at it`s absolute best as I played the week after the NCAA as well. I don`t recall the greens being that fast and had the same struggles as you. I remember having a birdie putt on the 14 Knoll to a front left pin where I was pin high right and I ended up at the bottom of the hill off the green. The birdie try could not have been more than 15 feet. A good ball striking round can get turned into a nightmare on those greens as I think they were stimping out around 12 which is certainly at the limit. That didn`t stop a young freshman from the University of Texas named Cody Gribble from shooting 63 in the first round-ouch!
Remember that we very rarely see greens as fast as 10 in the UK, so 12, in May probably does qualify as absurdly fast.  It always takes me a round or so to get used to the speed of greens in the US.  On 7 there was a front right pin when I played.  My approach came back off the false front.  My first chip was short and came back to where I was.  My second was past the flag.  My putt was off the green.  I got up and down for a seven!  A 63 round there takes some short game, I imagine!

In many ways the course that most reminds me of Yale is Lawsonia.  Both are big brawny golf courses with an obviously artificial element to their construction which works very well (in the same way that the obviously man made hazards at Huntercombe and Kington also work).  Both also feature greens with vry sharp, steep and deep drop offs.  Its a style of golf I'm very keen to see more of.
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Ronald Montesano

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Re: Why is Yale so unjustly overlooked? (pictures/discussion)
« Reply #37 on: November 25, 2011, 09:06:22 AM »
Mark,

I'm interested in the classification of Yale as "big, brawny..." The course tops out at 67.5 hundred yards (http://www.oobgolf.com/courses/scorecard.php?id=2068) but does seem to play that way, perhaps because of the drive requirements (from the Long tees, mind you) of holes 1, 4, 8, 9 (yes, the par 3!), 10 (must pass that rise!) 17 and 18. The second shot on 18 is the most demanding shot of the day; no one wants to hit a skipper off the hill that rises in front of you.

Yale is a perfect example of driving wins the day. There is much trouble off the tee if you are hitting it on the edges of the club face. Give me 10 of 14 center-cut drives and I will take my chances with my unreliable irons and uncertain putting stroke. I have to believe that one who plays Yale consistently and attentively, becomes a marvelous positioner of the golf ball off the tee.
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Joe Bausch

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Re: Why is Yale so unjustly overlooked? (pictures/discussion)
« Reply #38 on: November 25, 2011, 06:49:57 PM »

#2 - Blind shots - Yale has a dozen fully or semi-blind field shots.
 

I've got to open my eyes more on my next round at Yale. . . I don't remember a dozen. 
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
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Tim Martin

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Re: Why is Yale so unjustly overlooked? (pictures/discussion)
« Reply #39 on: November 25, 2011, 07:28:58 PM »

#2 - Blind shots - Yale has a dozen fully or semi-blind field shots.
 

I've got to open my eyes more on my next round at Yale. . . I don't remember a dozen. 

Come on Professor ;D

3-Drive and approach
8-Drive and approach
10-Drive and approach
11-Drive
12-Drive and approach
17-Drive
18-Drive and 2nd and possibly 3rd

Wayne Freeman

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Re: Why is Yale so unjustly overlooked? (pictures/discussion)
« Reply #40 on: November 25, 2011, 07:57:12 PM »
The above referenced Golf at Yale was published in 2009 and was written by a retired physician, John Godley, who has
  played the course for over 50 years.  I was fortunate to meet and talk with him on my last trip there and he is a
  delightful person.  Lots of great stories needless to say.  I looked at the description of the 8th hole and couldn't find any
  reference to Raynor's notch.  All the description of the holes in the book are by Banks.

I just love Yale.  It has every challenge imaginable and in addition to the all world 4th and 9th, just a bunch of great, great
  holes.  I agree that the par 3's may not be the equal of other top 50 courses, but they are a solid group nonetheless.
  It is just a joy to play and is getting better all the time.  I think it didn't get the appreciation because it was in such bad
  condition for so many years.  Being a college course is no excuse.  It's a first class place with a caring membership and loads
  of wealthy alumni.  If they could raise 12 mil for a new boat house one would think they can keep the golf course in great
  shape.  Kudos for the work that has been done.   

 

Tim Martin

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Re: Why is Yale so unjustly overlooked? (pictures/discussion)
« Reply #41 on: November 25, 2011, 08:38:33 PM »
The above referenced Golf at Yale was published in 2009 and was written by a retired physician, John Godley, who has
  played the course for over 50 years.  I was fortunate to meet and talk with him on my last trip there and he is a
  delightful person.  Lots of great stories needless to say.  I looked at the description of the 8th hole and couldn't find any
  reference to Raynor's notch.  All the description of the holes in the book are by Banks.

I just love Yale.  It has every challenge imaginable and in addition to the all world 4th and 9th, just a bunch of great, great
  holes.  I agree that the par 3's may not be the equal of other top 50 courses, but they are a solid group nonetheless.
  It is just a joy to play and is getting better all the time.  I think it didn't get the appreciation because it was in such bad
  condition for so many years.  Being a college course is no excuse.  It's a first class place with a caring membership and loads
  of wealthy alumni.  If they could raise 12 mil for a new boat house one would think they can keep the golf course in great
  shape.  Kudos for the work that has been done.  

 

Scott-I believe you are correct in that the moniker Raynor`s Notch is from former GCA member,Dr. Geoff Childs. I like Wayne could not find the reference in the book.
« Last Edit: November 25, 2011, 08:41:31 PM by Tim Martin »

Jim_Kennedy

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Re: Why is Yale so unjustly overlooked? (pictures/discussion)
« Reply #42 on: November 25, 2011, 09:23:31 PM »
Joe,
Tim's list, with modifications.
 
3-Drive and approach
6 - Approach, especially after a 'safe' tee shot
7 - Approach, the surface of the green is blind

8-Drive and approach
10-Drive and approach
11-Drive
12-Drive and approach
17-Drive
18-Drive and 2nd and possibly 3rd
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

John Mayhugh

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Re: Why is Yale so unjustly overlooked? (pictures/discussion)
« Reply #43 on: November 25, 2011, 09:34:58 PM »
Shame you didn't get to play 18, it's a blast.

Don't feel too sorry for Scott.  I suspect he will be back there before either of us are.

Tim Gavrich

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Re: Why is Yale so unjustly overlooked? (pictures/discussion)
« Reply #44 on: November 25, 2011, 09:46:46 PM »
I measure Yale's greatness in the fact that I always play pretty well there.  Great courses inspire.

I would love to see two things happen at Yale to make it even better:
1. Restoration of the right half of the 3rd green.
2. Strengthening of the contours of the 5th green.

I friggin' love Yale.
Senior Writer, GolfPass

Scott Warren

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Re: Why is Yale so unjustly overlooked? (pictures/discussion)
« Reply #45 on: November 25, 2011, 10:04:51 PM »
Mayhugh: I'll make the most of my lot in life until a) a mortgage and/or b) a baby enter(s) the equation.

But yes, I'm hoping to be back at Yale before my age starts with the number three.

Tim and Jim: Is the blind drive at #11 dependent on the tee you use? We played the 340-ish tee there and I don't recall the fairway being blind.

"Blind" is a personal term, too, I guess. For me, if I can see the fairway but the landing spot is hidden (3rd, 8th) or if I can see the flag but the surface of the green is hidden (10th), that to me isn't a blind shot, but I know there are many others who would disagree.

Andy Troeger

Re: Why is Yale so unjustly overlooked? (pictures/discussion)
« Reply #46 on: November 25, 2011, 10:20:53 PM »
Thanks for the photos. I had heard good things about Yale but rarely seen so many photos to get a real feel for the course. Looks fantastic.

Jim_Kennedy

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Re: Why is Yale so unjustly overlooked? (pictures/discussion)
« Reply #47 on: November 26, 2011, 09:28:37 AM »
Scott,
Yes on the  tee at #11.

I call it semi-blind if a fwy. or green is visible but the landing area is hidden. A hole like # 10 would be two semi-blind shots (hopefully  ;D ) and a hole like #12 would be semi-blind tee shot, then a blind approach.  
 

p.s. #10 wasn't a blind shot for me the first few times I played it. I would hit a wooden-headed steel-shafted 5-wood and keep it on the upper fairway, then hit the same club to the green. Times and equipment have changed.  ;)
« Last Edit: November 26, 2011, 09:30:36 AM by Jim_Kennedy »
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Noel Freeman

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Re: Why is Yale so unjustly overlooked? (pictures/discussion)
« Reply #48 on: November 27, 2011, 12:00:35 AM »
The above referenced Golf at Yale was published in 2009 and was written by a retired physician, John Godley, who has
  played the course for over 50 years.  I was fortunate to meet and talk with him on my last trip there and he is a
  delightful person.  Lots of great stories needless to say.  I looked at the description of the 8th hole and couldn't find any
  reference to Raynor's notch.  All the description of the holes in the book are by Banks.

I just love Yale.  It has every challenge imaginable and in addition to the all world 4th and 9th, just a bunch of great, great
  holes.  I agree that the par 3's may not be the equal of other top 50 courses, but they are a solid group nonetheless.
  It is just a joy to play and is getting better all the time.  I think it didn't get the appreciation because it was in such bad
  condition for so many years.  Being a college course is no excuse.  It's a first class place with a caring membership and loads
  of wealthy alumni.  If they could raise 12 mil for a new boat house one would think they can keep the golf course in great
  shape.  Kudos for the work that has been done.  

 

Scott-I believe you are correct in that the moniker Raynor`s Notch is from former GCA member,Dr. Geoff Childs. I like Wayne could not find the reference in the book.


The term Raynor's Notch came out of a round Dr. Childs and I played with Tom Dunne one day after I hit a drive right into the perfect spot to see the flag. The notch is approximately 145-150 yards out from the center of the green (about 120ish to front edge downhill of course).

Geoffrey and I batted around a few names, Raynor's Ledge, Plateau and finally Notch.. I take 50pct credit, Geoff has the rest.


After 6 years of being a member at Yale, 8 is by far my favorite hole and considering I love all of Yale that is saying a lot.. Both drive and approach have enormous interest for me and for some reason the green is very hard to read in the back half.  Most of the birdies I have on the hole come when it is pinned in the front 3rd where you can utilize the redan like slope.  The back right is a nasty bugger to 2 putt and back left is no holiday either.  Thus the elasticity of the green creates a nuance which leads to some difficulties in problem solving despite its short nature at just over 400 yards.
« Last Edit: November 27, 2011, 12:05:23 AM by NFreeman »

PThomas

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Re: Why is Yale so unjustly overlooked? (pictures/discussion)
« Reply #49 on: November 27, 2011, 01:10:29 AM »
I'm not sure I agree with the caption that it's overlooked.  Both Golf Magaine and GolfWeek have it rated in it's top 100.  Golf Digest does not.  I've tried for years to get panelists to go yet it doesn't seem to fit the mold for a GD top 100 course.

There are a variety of reasons for this, but most of it boils down to things already discussed, conditioning and quirk.  Add in that it's a difficult walk for some GD panelists and that the staff at Yale doesn't show any love for panelists it kind of ends up way outside the top 100.

i agree w Joel, it is not overlooked....well, maybe by the GD guys

I got to play there in September and really enjoyed it..a truly unique course
199 played, only Augusta National left to play!