[THuckaby2]

My apologies.

BCS SUCKS COMPARED TO A PLAYOFF, WHICH COULD VERY EASILY BE MADE TO HAPPEN!

Had I said that in the beginning, could we have avoided all this?  

BTW, I'll take Miami over Neb, CU over Oregon but not by as much as you think... and then CU being really screwed, because dammit they could beat Miami also.

Of course in my proposed system they'd get to prove it.... these should have been the semis...

 

TH

[Paul Richards]

Tom:

Agreed.  The BCS sucks!

The ILLINI should be in the Rose Bowl this year.

Any other year, we would be.  There should be a play-off!

[redanman (Guest)]

Colorado Deciles

Enough of this football  sh i t smack, please. Some of us are football-free you know.  


1  Cherry   Hills,  Castle Pines Golf Club,  Walking Stick,  Denver CC,  Legacy Ridge  

2  Ridge at Castle Pines,  Riverdale Dunes,  Ute Creek ,  Sanctuary,  Pine Creek, Bear Creek, Maroon Creek, Broadmoor - East

3   Breckenridge, CC at Castle Pines, Canterburry (In spite of bus rides between holes!),Keystone Ranch, Broadlands, Red Hawk Ridge

4   Sonnenalp, Country Club of the Rockies, Hiwan, Inverness, CC of Colorado, Broadmoor - South

5   Saddle Rock, Plum Creek, Buffalo Run, Fox Hollow, Heritage, Broadmoor – West, Air Force Academy - Blue

6   Meridian, Cordillera-Mountain, Highlands Ranch, Lakewood CC, AFA – Silver, Arrowhead

7     Racoon Creek, West Woods,  Ptaarmigan, Coal Creek, Columbine, Indian Peaks,

8    Cordillera-Valley, Glenmoor, Thorncreek, The Meadows, Beaver Creek, Pelican Lakes

9  Valley, Applewood, Eagle-Vail,  Green Gables, Riverdale Knolls, Rolling Hills, Vail

10   Willis Case, Highland Hills-Blue, Highland Hills-Gold, Pinery, Ranch, Twin Peaks

This is skewed as everything on here is at least 7th decile, I just never bothered with the real garbage.


Haven't played or seen Murphy, Redlands, Devil's, Summitt at Cordillera and Raven 3 peaks.  I hear they are likely 3-5th decile maybe 2-4, don't know.

[JohnV]

All this BCS crap is messing up a good discussion.

Tom, the reason I rated Running Y in the 3rd decile is partly because I only got to play the back 9 as the front was still dirt when I toured it and partly because it is almost unwalkable.  I would like to get back there someday as I heard they were going to add some more bunkering to the course which was also needed.

Slag, as for Glendoveer West, I course rated it and played it once and liked the fact that it had that nice old feel to it.  Some neater short par 4s and other stuff as I recall.

[Mark_Fine]

I have not read all 78 posts but I have a few questions.  Who is this rating system for and how will it be implemented?  My initial feeling is that it is too complicated and that will lead to very different ratings by different people.  Furthermore, how do you know what decile to put a course in if you haven't seen at least a significant number of them?  What are you judging against?  

[Paul Richards]

redanman:

Having played Murphy Creek, I would place it in your 3rd or
4th decile.

Keep in mind, though, that at $32 walking during the weekend,
it could sneak up even higher!

[John_Conley]

I have not read all 78 posts but I have a few questions.  Who is this rating system for and how will it be implemented?  My initial feeling is that it is too complicated and that will lead to very different ratings by different people.  Furthermore, how do you know what decile to put a course in if you haven't seen at least a significant number of them?  What are you judging against?  

Mark:  Thank you for your interest in my soon-to-be-infamous and possibly retired Decile system!    Seriously, I initially did this because a knowledgeable friend was one of the first to see North Shore and said it was, "pretty good."  I asked if it was in the top 1/4 of all clubs in our area and he paused, reflected, and said, "yes."  I didn't give it a second thought.

The next day I realized I didn't know where the line of demarcation was between the top 1/4 and those below it.  Only one way to find out, so I listed every course I've played in my area.  HNP for "have not played".  Define the area with which you are familiar as you like.  I admitted on the listing I sent out to those who requested it (PGA SHOW VISITORS thread) that my deciles may have been SLIGHTLY <definitely not much> skewed because there were a few courses I never went to play.  I know they would be 7th to 10th decile, so I'm not in any hurry.

The reason I see relevance is that there WILL NOT be significant differences in using it across different people.  BUT YOU MUST FOLLOW the program to be relevant.  Bill V.'s post just above is a little troubling because he has admitted that he didn't play the bottom 30% of courses in his area.  If he put them on the list and added (HNP) we would know that it was done with the best intent to protect the deciles.

Because a decile has an absolute definition, the breaks will only have relative interpretation in relation to the courses it is compared to.  Since that is defined as the entire population of an area, that also isn't open to interpretation.  Think in terms of "Decile rankings for Central Florida, by John Conley" and "Decile rankings for Michigan (ex. U.P.), by David Wigler".  Several others have been posted.

If Noel did his decile rankings for courses he played on this year it wouldn't help much.  He played almost nothing out of the Top 5% of all courses in the world.  You could look at his list and have a nice discussion on whether he favored National over Dornoch, but they are clearly both great.

Come to O-town and where're you going to play?  How 'bout Myrtle?  Whipping boy Pelican Hill charges over $200.  Is it worth it to you for a 3rd or 4th decile course?  To some it must be.  Perhaps they live in New York or Chicago where access is tough and it is nice not to tee off the winter mats at Waveland (since renamed for some guy).

Someone, you?, once told me that Fiddler's Elbow was "average".  All I can say is that anyone who thinks Fiddler's is average is woefully out of touch with reality.  I'm guessing it is a 2nd decile course nationally.  3rd at worst.  Far better than average.

I realize a few very select areas don't have a population of courses that would let this work.  Long Island comes to mind.  But it should work just about anywhere else.

Who is it for?  Anyone who enjoys the game of golf and isn't fortunate enough to always play top courses.  I play courses that are WAY skewed whenever I'm traveling.  Not everyone does.  For me to tell someone that Reynolds National "isn't very good" or Oconee Club "was a bit of a letdown" isn't fair to the course if the person I'm talking with doesn't often have chances to play courses that nice.

Telling someone they are both 2nd decilers lets them know they are WAY better than average, and lets someone who frequents top courses know they don't need to make a special effort to see it.  After all, if 10% of the courses in America are better, why should I take the time to see that one?

I hope this helps and I hope it makes sense.  As I mentioned to Wiggles in an above posting, it may work better for you to have three quintiles (80-100, 60-80, 40-60) followed by three deciles (30-40, 20-30, 10-20) and use a Doak Scale from there.  After all, Tom admits in his book that he only intends to separate the best from the best.  Average courses get bunched together and anything below is an afterthought.

The point is that I feel some other system should be available that isn't really open to interpretation.  "Very good", "bad", and "pretty good" don't have enough meaning to me.  It reminds me of the time my friend Jeff was describing two girls he met.  "One was alright looking and the other wasn't bad."

"Jeff!  Which is better?  To be 'alright', or 'not bad'?"  If the girls only knew!  Should one have been insulted?

Ron Whitten's index is equally vague.  1.0 to 10.0 is the scale, but if I told you a course got a 4.3 would you want to play it?  If so, why?  If not, why not?   A 4.3 on the Doak Scale is pretty good.  I know I'd like to play there if it was an alternative to sitting home.

Now, imagine the course is a 6th quintiler.  Would you want to play?  Maybe, maybe not.  But you won't be surprised when you play it.  You may think it was a 7th quintiler and you may think it was a 5th, neither of which would start an argument.

The Naffer had a post on Dyker Beach and we've all read about how much fun the Pac-10ers have had a Pacific Grove or Pajaro.  I haven't seen any of them, but can assure you that they are only good if you don't compare them to New York courses like Westchester and Quaker Ridge or NoCal courses like Cypress Point and Pasatiempo.

If Dyker and Pajaro, which I'm hearing are 8th and 6th (approx.) decile, aren't that bad, how can Pelican Hill be awful.  No one has told me it is any worse than a 4th decile course.  No matter how you slice it that means it is better than Pajaro and Dyker.  I know the tendency is to compare a $200 course to the great ones and let a low-end mune be evaluated in light of a $15 green fee.  But deciling takes care of it.

Would you rather play a 3rd decile Disney course for $120 or a 4th decile local for $40?  That's for you to decide.  But without a regional expert, in this case me, telling you how they stack up relative to others you'd be left to choose between a $120 course that "isn't as good as I thought it would be (description no doubt provided by one of your friends at work who you aren't sure how much he knows about golf)" and a $40 option that "is one of the legendary course designer Lloyd Clifton's greatest gems (that description you've no doubt been exposed to in the "Golfers Guide" provided by the concierge at your hotel)."

And you are right.  To have any validity you will have to play nearly all of the courses in the area.  Take a flatlander to Makena on Maui and they'll love it.  You'd need to stay in Hawaii for at least a month and travel to some other islands to know if it is #2, #22, or #32 in the state.

Happy New Year.

[BillV]

Paul

The funny thing about most of the front range public and municipal courses in Colorado-they are in the $25-35 range and allow walking.  e.g. Legacy, Walking Stick ($20-25!), Riverdale,Pine Creek, Ute Creek.......

(redanman-when I'm too lazy to sign in or if I want to be more blunt  )

[BillV]

John Conley

Since this is you thread and your post 2 before this one, I have to ask, once you have played enough golf courses to know the wheat from the chaff, why bother with the 7-10 deciles at all?

As my brother and I were discussing the concept of reading mortality, there is a golf courses to play mortality also. (So many_______s, so little time).

Would you have us play the slop just to play it?  We're not all stockbrokers, you know.   Even the retired guys don't have enough time.

Ask Mike Cirba how many 7,8,9,10 decile courses he has played in the last 5 years (He's played 615 or so courses by age ?43).  Keep that in perspective when he puts up a Phila/PA/Northeast list.

[Paul Richards]

BillV:

Not sure if any of the other courses you just mentioned are
any good or not, but being from Chicago, the $32 courses
(that are even worth mentioning) are few and far between!
 

So, to me, visiting Denver, playing Murphy Creek, really
enjoying it, and knowing that it is $32 or so was quite a treat!

[John_Conley]

John Conley

Since this is you thread and your post 2 before this one, I have to ask, once you have played enough golf courses to know the wheat from the chaff, why bother with the 7-10 deciles at all?

As my brother and I were discussing the concept of reading mortality, there is a golf courses to play mortality also. (So many_______s, so little time).

Would you have us play the slop just to play it?  We're not all stockbrokers, you know.   Even the retired guys don't have enough time.

Ask Mike Cirba how many 7,8,9,10 decile courses he has played in the last 5 years (He's played 615 or so courses by age ?43).  Keep that in perspective when he puts up a Phila/PA/Northeast list.

Bill:

I see where you are coming from.  BUT... if someone tells me a course "isn't very good" it could mean ANYTHING.  Telling me they have played all of the courses in their area and rank it 4th decile tells me exactly what to expect.

A friend of mine that I grew up caddying for is a member of Somerset, Sand Hills, Stock Farm, Pauma Valley, and the social club in San Francisco that gives him access to the Olympic Club's other course.  He dropped his membership at Interlachen, which is the closest to his house.

When he travels and tells me something is "awful", I know the context.  If you didn't know him you might not see some courses that are worthwhile.  I know for certain that he doesn't EVER set foot on a below 4th decile course.

I don't know Mike Cirba.  I'd rather he only tell me how good a course is if it is considered 1) in relation to the top courses, or 2) in relation to all courses.  A Doak-type scale works for above average courses in the former and deciling works for the rest in the latter.  Telling me that Pelican Hill or other similar course is "really bad" can be misleading.

I think you will find there is very little difference between you and your friends when sorting the courses where you live by decile.  Standards vary greatly.  Some people assume a course will be extraordinary any time they pay more than $50 and others aren't as sensitive to price.   Some people like being outdoors away from screaming kids and some retirees are just happy to be on the green side of the grass.  I like golf so much I enjoy nearly every course I play - unless of course I chose one over another and regretted the decision.

[Mark_Fine]

John,
Thanks for the detailed response.  I think you're system is interesting but I'll stick with the Doak scale.  I think that 1-10 scale covers the range of courses well enough for most of us and it gives a reasonable assessment of the quality of the track.  It may not go into detailed separation but as I've said many times, that is all relative anyway.  One person's 7 is another person's 3 or 4.  That is very much a function of what a person has seen and played.  

That may be why I give that course I played at Fiddler's a 4 or so.  Relative to what I have played, that is where it fits in.  Someone who knows me can judge that rating accordingly.  It's no different than if Joe Golfer goes and plays Bay Hill and comes back and tells me it's a 10.  I can relate to his perception and judge things accordingly.  

Just my opinion!
Mark

[John_Conley]

Mark:

Gotcha.  But I think you'd agree that the Doak Scale has obvious limitations if you are trying to separate the 125 or so courses in the Orlando area or conquer a similar task elsewhere.  I'll repeat... if I ever go to Myrtle I'd like to see all 100+ broken out IN RELATION TO EACH OTHER.

Only 5-10 courses in Orlando, or less than 10%, would be considered better than Fiddler's.  Many about as good, and most worse.

Should you be so lucky to play 75 rounds a year and never have to tread below the 3rd decile.

[BillV]

John

Thanks for your response, but the question still begs whether or not you actually get out and play the lower 4 deciles after you have been at this a while or not. Some of it depends on teh area as well.  I'd hate to be relegated to play only North Dakota's 3rd decile, where New Jersey would be just fine!

In a way I am really with Mark on this one, use the Doak-type scale.  

But both Matt Ward and I agree with you that he's off on Fiddler's.  Mark plays 80 different courses a year and never treads below the third decile (Were we all Presidents of LED chemical companies)!  

So go figure.

[THuckaby2]

Why bother playing courses lower than 3rd decile?  Because for some of us, that's the ONLY CHOICE WE HAVE any given day.... Would that I had a life that I could pick and choose so easily.  There are financial realities here in my world.

And Brother Bill, after all our "discussion", Bear Creek gets SECOND decile?  I would have expected tenth!

To me, that's the worth of this.  Even if Bill rips my friend's home course (and rip it he did), this puts it in context.  It sucks, but it's among the top 10 courses in Colorado.

This just gives a valuable "relativity" and I have to once again thank John C. for suggesting it.

TH

ps - I shall indeed leave the BCS discussion alone.  Oregon did prove something yesterday, however....

[Mike_Cirba]

I've been reading this thread with some interest, and I know a couple of people have suggested that I put together a Philadelphia listing, which I hope to do as a winter project at a later date.

For the time being, I will offer what I think is of value here, and what the limitations of the decile system are.

First of all, the Doak Scale is meant to delineate between the good, better, and best, and is top-weighted as such.  As some have pointed out, that's a wonderful thing for a well-travelled person with access to those type of courses on a regular basis.  It also gets into very fine, granular distinctions that are valuable to architectural junkies such as ourselves.

However, others are fairly correct in pointing out, "What about the other 90+% of golf courses that are played by the majority of golfers, and certainly even by many of us on at least a fairly frequent basis?"  There, a decile system is of value.  As John points out, someone heading to some vacation destination like Myrtle, Hilton Head, Tuscon, etc., would likely find considerable value in knowing someone's learned opinion.  

Although BillV points out that I've been fortunate to have played quite a number of higher decile courses in recent years, the fact remains that of the 621 courses I've played, they include everything from the greatest courses in the world to some of the worst.  So yes, the decile system would work well against my inventory, which probably averages 6 or 7, but still has 1's and 2's in its company.  In fact, I feel fortunate to have played some pretty horrendous courses because I feel that it gives me a better appreciation of a great course.

However, the real downside of the decile system is at the top end.  Look at each of the top decile courses that people listed.  By it's nature, one would assume that each of the courses in people's top decile would be more or less equal in quality, yet it's obvious that would not be the case.  

Thanks kindly though, John, for sharing your system with us and especially for sending folks your listing of courses in the Orlando area.  Still, before I come down next time, I would check with you to see what your Doak rating is for each of the courses in your top decile.  

[THuckaby2]

Well said, Mike.

Look at my list if you would be so kind... there is going to be a HUGE disparity in Doak ratings amongst those in my first decile.

I take that as a given.  The more courses one includes, the greater chance of disparity in the deciles.  

Just remember that unless I have read this completely wrong, the intent of the decile system is NOT to evaluate GREAT architecture, but to put courses in context against a certain set of others... Thus it is indeed "weak" as a measure of the top courses, but that's not it's intent!

You hit the nail on the head... if I'm travelling to any of the places "deciled" out so far, I'm gonna look first at the decile list, and then ask for a Doak or Michelin or some other rating when getting down to the very specifics.

But as a start, to establish relativity, these deciles are damn valuable.

TH

[A_Clay_Man]

Mr. Huckaby- I find that your placement of APE TOSS in Seascape as highly suspect. Especially ahead of PG  

I think things are getting a little out of control. The author of this post set peramiters of a specific distance from his home. Somehow this has degenerated into a state wide list. I think the excersise may be a bit easier if you limit the field.

But alas, these are all opinion and it is good to see what everyones basis is. Do you like spare, beef, or baby backs?

[John_Conley]

Guys... we're all in agreement here.  How rare!  

Mike:  Most courses in the top decile nationwide eke out a 4 on the Doak.  It is pretty hard to give higher than a 5 to anything in Orlando, except maybe Southern Dunes - and even that depends on how offended you get by low-end housing.  Journey out for a 2-hour radius and you pick up a bunch.  Both courses at World Woods, El Diablo, Lake Jovita, the Dunes at Seville, Black Diamond's Quarry, Golden Ocala, the CC of Ocala, Ocean Hammock, John's Island West, and maybe even Hawk's Nest.  Now if you don't have that extra hour to drive... ah yes, we are getting agreement that it would be nice to know you would have a very good time at Swiss Fairways for $30 or Errol Estates for $40 instead of dropping more than a C-note and grumbling that Disney/Grand Cypress/Falcon's Fire/Celebration/take-your-pick wasn't very good.

Hucks:  Thanks for supporting my viewpoint.  This can work for you and me because it immediately brings in the relative scale.  

As I've suggested, others may want to do three quintiles, three deciles, and a Doak Scale for the top 10%.

Matt Ward, Bill, Mark - I'd rank Fiddler's as a 2nd (maybe 3rd) deciler, which can be a 4 or 5 depending on how generous you are with the Doak Scale.  I'm on record for saying even its creator seems more liberal on some days than others from reading his book.  I shouldn't have to know someone to get an honest evaluation of whether a course is good or bad.  This deciling exercise has shown me people are generally in agreement on which courses are better than which AND ARE MILES APART on what standard for a golf course is acceptable.

I gave Mark Fine about 10 chances to back off from his comment that Fiddler's Elbow was "average".  I even asked him if it was average for what he plays or just average.  He stood by "just average".  Now I'll know that Mark has no idea what an average golf course in America looks like.

(To fill you in on something Hucks and I know all too well... Oftentimes golf courses offer uneven teeing ground, untreated bunker erosion, cramped holes due to insufficient room or heavy concessions to the neighboring homesites, areas where turf won't grow because of an inability to afford the cost for adequate clearing, amateur design efforts because nobody wanted to pay a professional, and more.  I play 20-25 rounds per year on what might be considered "Top" courses, but I play a lot of golf.  About 75 rounds each of the last two years.)

Mike Cirba:  BINGO!  It would be great in all the areas you mentioned.

I'm not so sure if Philly represents the national average or not.  Of the courses built before WWII, the ones that remain are already skewed toward the better end of what was built.  Of those built in the last 20 years, I'm guessing they involve more high-profile projects and are therefore void of much rubble.  I'm curious to see any list you come up with, but I reckon Philly is one of the few areas of the country where golf courses are quite a bit better than the national average.  Long Island is probably another.

When you're done, someone else familiar with Philly can tell us if the 7th and 8th decile are better than 7th and 8th decile courses everywhere else.

Be sure to include everything.  If you haven't played it just drop it in where you figure it would go with HNP by it.  I'd be afraid your HNPs are all at the bottom from the way some other guys mentioned your name.

Thanks for the feedback.

[THuckaby2]

Adam - I figured I'd screw up somewhere and that's likely it - oh well, what the hell, it was a LARGE amount of courses to consider so I can live with this mistake!  There are likely several others.

I started to do an entire state list, but it was just TOO huge.  I'm gonna leave SoCal to those who live there and then I'm gonna be quite eager to debate their placements!

TH

[John_Conley]

I think things are getting a little out of control. The author of this post set peramiters of a specific distance from his home. Somehow this has degenerated into a state wide list. I think the excersise may be a bit easier if you limit the field.

But alas, these are all opinion and it is good to see what everyones basis is. Do you like spare, beef, or baby backs?

On point #1, you are right.  I'd only consider "deciling" an area where I've played virtually every course.  Otherwise those deciles will be skewed, right?  It is perfectly acceptable to attach an addendum of the HNPs or include them in the deciles where you figure they'd go based on what you've heard with an asterisk.  From reading about Pacific Grove and Dyker Beach, my point is clear... we can all enjoy an average course if we expected it to be worse.

Point #2.  Nobody really likes beef ribs better than pork, do they?  (In Orlando, Sonny's does the best job with baby backs.  O'Boys and Bubbalou's take the crown for pork spareribs.  Most agree that the sliced pork at O'Boys is better than the more renowned Bubbalou's Bodacious BBQ.)

[Mark_Fine]

John,
Don't confuse pretty and well manicured with well designed.   The course I played at Fiddler's had nearly all bowling alley holes.  It was clearly designed for "move them in and move them out" (corporate outing play).  Nothing against Rees, because he built the product they wanted there.  It's pretty and well manicured but has little architectual interest.  In that respect unless you heavily weight conditioning, it's not much better than the average golf course which is why I gave it about a 4.  

I grew up playing 2's and 3's and was never a member of a country club until 1997 so I am very much aware of what the majority of golfers play and have posted numerous times on this.  

We all know Bill and Matt love Rees so maybe they are just showing their bias here  

Mark

[JConley]

John,
Don't confuse pretty and well manicured with well designed.  

I don't confuse the two, but a large maintenance budget is often synonymous with a large construction budget, only increasing the likelihood that a do-it-yourself course design wasn't used.

Think of it this way.... Has Tom Fazio designed a course that falls at or below the national average in the last decade?  They may not be the top courses in the country either, but they aren't drivel.

I will say that NOBODY ignores conditions when playing more than I do.  Anything on this side of playable suits me fine.

[A_Clay_Man]

John- On my first trip to Hernando, we ate at Sonny's every night. Their baby backs are da best.
Tom- I wasn't trying to beat u into submission over PG or Aptos. I just wondered what your list would look like if you kept it to a two hour drive from your domicile.

[THuckaby2]

Adam - I'd venture to say that 90% of the courses on here are either within 2 hours of San Jose, where I live, or Oakland, where I work.  The only ones that get eliminated are Fall River Valley and those in Tahoe and some in the gold country... 2 hours covers a LOT of ground!

Want a list of JUST Bay Area that doesn't include Monterey or anything else outside what one would just consider the "Bay Area?"  Now THAT would be different indeed.  It would also be one sad list.

TH

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