[John_Conley]

I didn't think there'd be much interest in an entire thread devoted to my "deciles" ranking system, but the Huckster indicated i) he thinks it has some validity, ii) he uses a similar method, and iii) he was curious to learn more about how I see things.

A lot of people are familiar with "the DOAK SCALE" from "Confidential Guide".  Rich makes a plea for Michelin's "Star System".  I am but a poor, humble Midwesterner, so such a Continental criteria is beyond what I can comprehend.  (For those not familiar, Rich essentially takes 9s and 10s from the Doak Scale and calls them ***.  ** equates to the 8s and * approximates 7s.  Nearly all courses get ZERO *s.)  Most of what people use to compare courses is to separate the great from the above-average.  I see one shortcoming in this when it comes to "practical applications in the real world"... WHERE IS MOST GOLF PLAYED?

There are something like 20,000 courses in America.  Golf and Golf Digest rank the TOP 100 (1/2 of 1%) and Golfweek ranks 200 (1%).  Discussion about courses that don't make a ranking can imply that they aren't very good, when in fact the opposite is often true.  By definition, most courses are about average.

To develop a much more meaningful measurement for average golfers with average means looking to play an above-average or reasonably-priced average course, I find it much more helpful to compare every course to every other course instead of just the ranked courses (statistical outliers).

I understand and use a different measuring stick when evaluating if it would be worth traveling across country and paying top dollar to play somewhere (i.e. is it better to take a golf vacation to Casa de Campo, Kohler, Pinehurst, or Bandon?), so I know when other rankings are more appropriate.  But I also know that some courses are fine when compared to the average course, yet are "whipping boys" because they aren't "great".  (In my area, Champions Gate comes to mind.  From what I've read here, Californians feel that way about Pelican Hill.)

A decile is the population (define as broad as you like) divided into equal 1/10ths.  10% have to be at the top and 10% have to be in the tenth decile.  Depeding on how normal the distribution of your subjects is, you'll probably see very little difference between a 4th decile (slightly above average) and 7th decile (slightly below average) member.

Do this for the courses where you live.  I took a 1-hour radius from the intersection of I-4 and the E/W Expressway and came up with about 140 courses, 101 of which I've played.  You will probably have a hard time naming the worst 20% of the courses in your area.  And that is the beauty of deciling.

When someone comes to Orlando, a not so infrequent occurrence, they should know how the high-$ tourist courses at Disney or Grand Cypress stack up to others in the area.  We may not have courses to rival Long Island, but you might not be aware that you could choose from my categories of 5th and 6th quintile courses and find all to be very enjoyable - but nowhere near TOP 100 status.

Calling an NBA point guard or NFL quarterback "awful" doesn't really make sense if you consider they had to be standouts in college and All-world in high school or they wouldn't have made that level.  Just the same, when 99.5% of all courses won't get a national ranking from Golf or Golf Digest, does it make sense to bash all courses that were omitted from such lists?

If I asked how good a course was and you told me "average", it could be average out of what you've seen this month or out of what you WOULD play, since a lot of people are fortunate enough to never set foot on 8th, 9th, and 10th decile tracks.  If you told me it made 5th decile in your book, I'd know a lot more.  

Can you decile courses based on one visit to Hawaii or Phoenix?  No, there are about 70 courses in Hawaii and even more in Phoenix.  But if you are familiar with an area, you do have enough to sort out by 10% increments.

Hucks said Pelican Hill is 3rd or 4th decile in its area.  That helps me a lot more than reading numerous posts bashing it because it is overpriced.  If I were comped and the round didn't take too long, I would have a real nice time but not feel as though it was a "can't miss".  (High DOAK scores or courses with a Michelin star fall into that category.)

Hope this makes sense to someone.  I just think it'll help others reflect on the merits of courses when they have to take it into a broader context.  I know some have an inherent tendency to think this way when praising "average" courses like Pacific Grove or Dyker Beach.  (Don't get on me for that statement, I haven't seen either.  I'm guessing the former is a 4th decile and the latter is about 7th or 8th?)  Deciling helps quantify it.

[Paul Richards]

John:

You make some excellent points here.

For instance, Pelican Hill got lambasted.  However, you are
correct that this is a much better course than average.

It's just that most GCAers seem to be comparing it to those
courses which make up the Top 100 lists.

Hardly anyone ever mentions the "average" or "below average" course since most people wouldn't bother to travel
any distance to see most average courses.

[THuckaby2]

JC - many thanks - this is great and quite valuable, I think.  Yes, we do bash Pelican Hill, but only in a "relative" sense.  I'd venture to guess that even anti-Fazio Tommy N. would have to see that it's a better golf course than many in California.  Thus it gets 3rd or 4th decile, no matter how much we rip it.

At some point I'm gonna try to come up with deciles for NorCal and SoCal, given I've played so many courses in each area.  This ought to be enlightening.

Thanks!

TH

[A_Clay_Man]

Interesting, but it still sounds like a Doak scale(base 10) only it's based on your preferences.
What I find even more interesting is human nature and whether your talking markets or Democracy, when you get a result of where 66 2/3 %  of all people involved are convinced one way. That way is bound to be wrong. Bill Moyers' did a piece for PBS awhile back showing the democracy truism. I have my own experiences for the former.

[Ran Morrissett]

John,

Could you please pick a particular area (hopefully one that plenty of us have been to) and break its courses into deciles as per your post?

Such an example would be most beneficial, I reckon.

Cheers,

[John_Conley]

Paul:  

And that is why I think this is helpful.  If you told me a course was anywhere from 3rd to 10th decile, I'll immediately know it isn't a candidate for "the lists".  (They have 1% inclusion and the course we're discussing is at best still outside the top 20%.)

I can and do use a "high-brow" scale when talking about the elite, but I know from others' postings that most people can enjoy golf on an average course - ESPECIALLY when they didn't expect much.

I have sent out my Central Florida guide to those that requested it, and I think you'd agree a sheet of ZERO * courses wouldn't help much.  Which zero star course is better?

For those familiar with my area, here is a breakdown of some of the more renowned courses.
FIRST DECILE:  Southern Dunes, Isleworth, Osprey Ridge at Disney, and Grand Cypress N/S/E
SECOND:  Bay Hill, Lake Nona, Palm at Disney
THIRD:  Palisades and Eagle Pines at Disney
FOURTH:  Celebration, Champions Gate - International, Grand Cypress New
FIFTH:  Falcon's Fire
SIXTH:  Metro West and Champions Gate - National
SEVENTH:  Ridgewood Lakes and Magnolia at Disney
EIGHTH:  Grenelefe East, Kissimmee Bay, and LBV at Disney
NINTH:  Diamondback
TENTH:  Black Bear and Magnolia Plantation

If you have played Bay Hill or Lake Nona and think they are 5s on the DOAK SCALE, you get some impression as to what you can expect if you tread below the 2nd decile.  Conversely, if you play a poorly maintained, rudimentary layout in the Midwest or Northeast... a warm day at Falcon's Fire in January or February is well worth the $90 or so.

Hucks:

Please share some of your rankings for N and S Cal.

(P.S. Got another day calendar for Christmas.  There are so many pretty photos of San Juan Oaks in Hollister every year.  What decile is this?  I'm guessing 2nd or 3rd.)

My deciles are like computer rankings for football or basketball teams.  I don't expect anyone to agree with every choice, but ON AVERAGE you'll find your favorites toward the top and the ones you don't like at the bottom.  Even adjusting for tastes, I'd be amazed if anyone had serious qualms with another person's breakdown for their area.

What people can and do often argue about is what is acceptable.  If a course is 2nd decile but you expected Top 100 (1/2 of 1%), you'll inevitably "knock" it.  If a course is 5th decile and you paid $20 and had no prior billing, you might speak highly.  IT DOESN'T MATTER!  A 2nd decile is still better than a 5th decile.

[John_Conley]

Adam:

NO!  You missed the point.  An average course on the Doak scale is awarded a 2 or 3 because he doesn't want to use the numbers to split hairs on average and below average courses.  This is the opposite.  Why split hairs on the best of the best when nearly all golf is played on the rest?  In Ran's area, Pinehurst #2 is top decile AND ranked.  Where do the Pit, Talamore, Beacon Ridge, Little River, Deer Croft, etc.. fit in?  I WOULD LOVE TO HAVE A DECILE RANKING SHEET FOR MYRTLE IF I EVER WENT THERE.

Ran:

I was posting when you chimed in.  I have provided some examples below.  My full spreadsheet was sent out via e-mail to those that requested it.  I would be very curious to see the decile rankings for everything within 45 minutes or one hour of the Pinehurst Traffic Circle at the corner of 15/501 and 211.  That would help me if vacationing in the area as much as knowing that you like Tobacco Road, Jim likes Forest Creek, and #2 is ranked.

(I do acknowledge that there is reason to believe certain pockets are "skewed".  Like Long Island or Pebble Beach.  That is why I'd try to pick a region with at least 50 courses, probably 100.  The top tiers in Pinehurst are probably better than Orlando because of the nature of their clientele.  But the middle deciles in NC would not be much different then the middle deciles in FL.)

[THuckaby2]

JC - the only "problem" with this is that to be precise, one has to consider the whole world of courses in the area to be considered... so for me in CA, that's a LOT of courses... and I just don't have the time or patience right now to get it all down!  I will some day.  Before one does that though one is really only guessing.

That is, unless I'm doing it wrong... I was envisioning a list with Cypress, Pebble, SFGC, Olympic Lake, LACC, Riviera all at the top, and places like my poor beleaguered Rancho Del Pueblo at the bottom.  OK, those are easy, first and last deciles, no questions.  It's everything in between that becomes more difficult and you need the WHOLE to sort out what's what.  For example, I can't say if a wonderful course like MPCC-Dunes is 2nd or 3rd or perhaps even first decile right now cuz I don't know where it fits in context yet with all the others.... I'm not sure if Pasatiempo is gonna make the first decile cut, it depends on how many courses I consider....

I'll get to it - I promise!

TH

[John_Conley]

Bingo!

Tom:  We are probably all at least regional experts.  Brad Klein contacts me when he wants to know about MN golf and Ran asked me where some of his friends should play in FL this winter.

Asking someone who has limited experience in either would net, "Hazeltine because the PGA is there and Interlachen because I played it once and loved it." or "Bay Hill because Arnold Palmer lives there and Pine Barrens because most people on GCA have seen it."

I posted photos of the Dunes at Seville, a Florida Top 50 course (5%) if you ask me.  Nobody else on the board (besides Derek who wrote about it for a magazine) had played it and most hadn't any knowledge of it despite being only two miles away.

With more thorough regional rankings it seems that someone could choose a course like the Dunes instead of trying to get to Old Memorial or Southern Dunes just because they show up in the GOLFWEEK Top 100 Modern.  One is in the WW area and the others are more than one hour away.

I am well aware of the "problem" you mention.  Which is why it is hard to give a definitive decile ranking to courses in an area where you have limited playing experience.  Pick a small radius around where you live and start there.  Similarly, I could play ONE course in North Cali and tell you "it compares to a 4th decile course in Orlando".  You'd know instantly what it means.

If you told me a course was in the top 25%, but hadn't ever taken the time to sort out which courses are in the top 25%, I think you'd fall in violation of what I call the "Vitale Rule".  100 teams should make the NCAA tourney field of 65.  Ten kids are on his 5-man All-America list.  Whichever kid he's watching is "Freshman of the Year".

WHEN FORCED TO SPLIT THOSE HAIRS YOU WILL BE LEFT WITH A MUCH MORE MEANINGFUL MEASUREMENT OF HOW AVERAGE, ABOVE-AVERAGE, AND BELOW-AVERAGE COURSES COMPARE TO EACH OTHER.

Tom, start with something like 30 miles or one hour around a central location near you.  Or a group of 3 or 4 counties that have at least 50 courses that you've played.  For courses you haven't played, you can leave them off like I did or slot them with an asterisk about where you think they'd fall based on reasonable speculation.  I can promise you only a couple of the 25 or so courses in my region I haven't played would have a chance to make the top 3 deciles.  I admitted my listing my be skewed when I e-mailed the Central Florida spreadsheet.

[THuckaby2]

OK, whew - obviously very slow at work these days, so what the hell, I compiled a list of every course I've played in the Northern California Golf Association and then came up with deciles.  It was an interesting exercise... My total came to 180 courses, which I believe is around 40% of the courses in the NCGA - we have one big association!  So 18 courses in each decile... The first and second deciles were easy, as were the 9th and 10th... everything in between was rather tough.  Of the courses I haven't played, I doubt any would make first ... that is one tough list... and second is doubtful too, but maybe something like The Dragon, Lahontan, Mayacama (none of which I've played) might go there.  Some highlights (this will likely make sense only the the NorCals, and if they see my entire list damn will we have some disagreements... but here goes):

First:
besides the obvious, I had each of Stevinson Ranch, Bayonet, Lake Merced, Meadow Club and California GC sneak in... which doesn't mean much until you see...

Second:
MPCC Shore, Saddle Creek, OClub Ocean, Castlewood-Hill, Shadow Lakes!

Third:
Cinnabar Hills, Almaden CC, both courses at Blackhawk, Hiddenbrooke..

And no matter what I did, I couldn't get my "beloved" Rancho Del Pueblo out of the tenth.

In any case, it was actually encouraging to me that we have pretty good courses going all the way down the list.  Even those in the 10th aren't generally bad... I have gained new respect for NorCal golf doing via this exercise.  Now just make things more affordable and I won't consider this such a golf hell.

I have no idea if I am a regional "expert", heck my tastes are likely different than most others.  But if anyone wants to see the entire list I did, send me an email and I'll be happy to send it... it's a word doc...

TH
tom.huckaby@clorox.com

[Slag_Bandoon]

John IConleyclast,  Terrific idea!  I grok.  This would work in an actual magazine as this is the information age baby! and they (Golf Digest, etc) could have a continual live/flux data base from its raters for their areas. Heck they trust 'em with the biggies, why not the unknowns?  They might be strongarmed by the golf estate realtors but I'd say it's better than reading those damn adds for course value.  And Golf Digest could have a web page with these divisions for continual access by its readers (or lurkers).      
 
 Perhaps the sub ranking could be dropped though.  I mean, 4th and 5th duking it out in the 7th decile group seems a bit clinical.  

  Imagine the shame of being at the bottom of the bottom. Ouch!  Believe me, it hurts.     But at least they're on the list, right?

 "The new phone books are here! I'm somebody"  The Jerk.      

[John_McMillan]

The problem I have with the system, is that in order to know how a course compares to the worst, one would have to play the worst.  I don't want to play (or spend time becoming familiar with), the bottom 10%, 20%, or even 50% of golf courses, and if one didn't, I don't see how comparisons against these courses could be properly calibrated.  Of course, if you'd like to pool efforts, I'll play the top 10% of the courses, you play the bottom 10%, and we'll compare notes  

[Paul Richards]

John:

That's exactly the point I was making above.

[THuckaby2]

That is a weakness of the system, indeed.  I suppose then that this has worth only for us golf addicts who do indeed play bad courses!  My list has plenty of crap.  But this has a certain worth in an of itself... how does one truly now how great a top course is if he hasn't experienced the bottom?  

TH

[Rich_Goodale]

John

Not really sure what the decile system adds to the Doak scale.  Sure the latter puts the majority of courses in the 3 and below category, but who can really define the difference (or would care to!) between a 6th and 7th decile course anyway?

Rich

PS--just to clarify, the Michelin (food) system essentially:

--identifies, defines and grossly "ranks" the 1st decile (1*-3***)
--differentiates the 2nd-5th decile establishments (those that are listed in the guides but are not good enough to get a star) from those in the bottom 1/2 of the population (those that are not even listed in thier guides), and
--identifies within the upper 1/2 those establishments with special characteristics (e.g. scenic beauty, good regional cuisine, good wine cellar, value for money, child firendly, etc.)

I still think this would be the most doable and useful sort of system for golf courses too, but not all agree.

[THuckaby2]

Rich - the way I did it, Santa Teresa is 6th while Coyote Creek Valley is 7th.

Need I say more?

I kinda like this system, it works for me, but only because for every one round at a course receiving any stars at all in your system I likely play 30 at those that don't.  So why not classify the latter 30 in some way?

For discussions of "great architecture", your system works very well, as does the Doak scale.  

That's my take anyway....

TH

[John_Conley]

SLAG (Norb?):  I'm running for the dictionary to look up ICONOCLAST as soon as I finish!

TOM H.:  Thanks for taking the time to do this for your area.  As you can see, it isn't easy.  Perhaps quintiling the middle works for you.  My idea isn't set in stone, but does present an alternative way of looking at things.

MC MILLAN:  

I understand your point.  If you only tread on the top 10% and then trash an average course that you accidentally happen upon you might come across as a "golf snob".  Where are most rounds of golf played?  Telling me that you hated Pelican Hill or some similar course does less for me than hearing that you'd rank it in the bottom half of all courses in its area - define how you want.

If you expected nothing (see the thread on Dyker Beach or this site's write-up of Pacific Grove) but find some redeeming qualities, I'm guessing you will offer some words of praise.

Taking things in context, is it Grand Cypress's or Pelican Hill's fault that you expected them to rival Sand Hills or Pebble Beach?  Not really, although I admit it could be if they advertise that way.

John C. - "John M., how did you like Champions Gate?"
John M. - "I really didn't.  For the tariff I paid, I expected something really special.  It only comes up as a 3rd deciler if it were back in my area."

I'd know exactly what you meant.  A 4 on the Doak scale is still above average.  If you are like me and love golf you enjoy every 4 you play, assuming it wasn't built up in your mind and triggers the letdown factor.

RICH:  When you are travelling and want to play a world-renowned course this deciling method won't add anything.  If you came to visit me in Florida or happened to be in Minnesota for work and wondered which courses near your hotel would be worth a trip to play, I'd say it is invaluable.  Just think, Keller held a PGA Championship and hosted the St. Paul Open for the Tour for both men and women for years... but how does it stack up to other daily fee courses like Manitou Ridge, Phalen, or Oak Glen in the same area?  Hmmmm.

To ALL:  In order to understand where I am coming from, I urge you to think in terms of an average (but passionate) golfer in a normal market with average means.  You may not fit that category, making a deciling method not for you.  But if you ever travelled to Myrtle on a golf holiday, wouldn't it be nice to have a breakdown like the one I've done for Orlando?

TOM H. again:  Your 30:1 ratio of ZERO star courses to the ones that would get Michelin stars is normal.  It's Noel that isn't!!  And yes, I think it does help to differentiate between those that fall below that barrier - at least for me.

RICH:  Weren't you part of the group that played the real fast round on the popcorn farm?  What decile is that in?  From the photos I saw and descriptions I've heard, I can't imagine it falls any higher than 5th decile.  People I've asked put Pelican Hill in about the 3rd, yet that gets bashed.  It sure seems like you can and do enjoy playing golf on average courses.  The list I've compiled for Orlando will tell you which 30% to avoid if you want to make sure you stay away from the truly below average.

[John_D._Bernhardt]

I am not sure many of you guys will care but i will try to do the gulf coast, being La, southern Miss, Ala and nw Florida. John how do you figure conditioning or consistancy of conditioning into your system.

[JohnV]

Ok, you asked for it.  I've played 94 or so courses in Oregon so I went ahead and deciled them all.  I put ten in the 1st, 2nd, 9th and 10th deciles and 9 in the rest.  There are only about 10 "good" courses in Oregon that I've never seen and I don't think any of them would crack the 1st or second decile.

The thing I like about this list is that it doesn't require me to say if I like Astoria, Eugene or Crosswater better than the other one, which seems kind of silly since the are all very different.  The only time I have to make that call is between deciles and then, if I just go see a few more courses, the favorite on the second group can move up.  Since I've played a lot of the crappier courses in Oregon as well as the good ones, I can feel pretty comfortable that a course that is near the bottom really deserves to be there and wouldn't move up much if I saw the rest of the courses.  Because there are many courses that some people just refuse to play (dare I call them "elitists"), to do a definitive version of this for an area would require input from many people.

Here is my list:
1st Astoria, Bandon Dunes, Columbia Edgewater, Crosswater, Eugene, Pacific Dunes, Portland, Pumpkin Ridge - Ghost Creek, Pumpkin Ridge - Witch Hollow, Waverley

2nd Broken Top, Eagle Point, Eastmoreland, OGA Members Course at Tukwila, Reserve - Cupp, Reserve - Fought, Salishan, Sandpines, Tokatee, Tualatin

3rd Aspen Lakes, Heron Lakes - Great Blue, Oregon Golf Club, Riverside, Running Y Ranch, Sunriver - North, Sunriver - South, Trysting Tree, Willamette Valley

4th Coos Country Club - Original 9 only, Diamond Woods, Emerald Valley, Gearhart, Glendoveer - East, Heron Lakes - Greenback, Langdon Farms, Michelbook, Pendleton

5th Black Butte - Big Meadow, Creekside, Eagle Ridge, Forest Hills, Grants Pass, Myrtle Creek, Persimmon, Salem, Shadow Hills

6th Black Butte - Glaze Meadow, Eagle Crest, Glendoveer - West, Indian Creek, Juniper, Meadow Lakes, Quail Valley, Rock Creek, The Dalles

7th Alderbrook, Arrowhead, Broadmoor, Colwood, Corvallis, McNary, Meriweather, Mountain High, Quail Point

8th Cedar Bend, Cedar Links, Charbonneau, Claremont, Illinois Valley, McKenzie River, Progress Downs (original), Santiam, Shield Crest

9th Coquille Elks Club, Echo Hills, Gresham, Lakeside, Manzanita, McKay Creek, Middlefield Village, Oak Knoll, River's Edge , Umatilla

10th Dutcher Creek, Evergreen, Orenco Woods, Pine Hollow, Ranch Hills, Stewart Meadows, Stewart Park, Sunset Grove, Vernonia, Willow Run

[Rich_Goodale]

John

Our round at Pajaro Valley (popcorn farm???) was not "real fast."  As I remember it took over 3 hours, which is more than an hour slower than several of my early rounds this summer at Dornoch.

PV probably is about 5th decile in Nor. Cal., and if there were a Michelin golf guide it would be included, with special mention for things like Speed of Play, Value for Money,  Funkiness of Superintendent, etc.  If I were visiting the Monterrey Peninsula and wanted a break from the relentless good golf of the "starred"courses, I would look for this sort of into rather than trying to differentiate between PV and a 4th decile course (e.g Rancho Canada) or a 6th decile one (e.g. Pasadera) which wouldn't be in my guide at all.

In terms of my play, I don't mind playing medicore courses, but I don't seek them out.  In fact well over 1/2 of my play this year happened to be on top decile tracks....

As for Huckaby, I know for certain that his play list this year included NGLA, Shinnecock, Pacific Dunes, Bandon Dunes, Cypress Point, Lehigh, Applebrook, Yale and San Francisco. Since I also know, he played at the very least one of these courses more than once, and probably played many other of the same ilk that I cannot remember, he must have played more than a course a day in 2001, if you believe his 30-1 ratio.  We all know that he didn't spend a hell of a lot of time in his "office" at Clorox, but this is getting ridiculous......

Cheers

Rich

[JohnV]

In thinking about this, I think this is a valuable tool for deciding where I do I want to play today, where other ranking systems such as Tom Doak's and the various magazine systems are designed to determine which are the best courses in America/World.  If I came through the Monterey Bay Area on a trip and wanted a round of golf and I couldn't get on the private courses and couldn't afford Pebble/Spyglass/Pasatiempo, how would I know if I should play Pajaro, DeLavega, Seascape or Pacific Grove?  Some system like this could give me more of a clue than any other one I've seen.

Perhaps a Zagat style book would also work.  I know that Golfweb tried that, but they averaged things like food quality in with the golf course to come up with a rating that was stupid.

[Slag_Bandoon]

Hi John,  What does Zagat style mean?  I can't find a definition anywhere. Is it Dutch?

BTW - I'd put Glendoveer West a bit lower in the d'o'cile curve.

  

[A Clay Man]

I remember the old days... when traveling in an unfamiliar area I would go to a local establishment that specialized in malted bevies and I would strike up conversations with people and when I found a golfer, I would ask him if he liked his ribs parre boiled or chewy off the bone. When he would say chewy I would then ask his opinion of good golf in the area. I found this tactic 100% reliable.
I once thought that GCA.com should develope it's own rankings but then that will only lead to swelled heads and anticipation of greater income from any and all hiddem gems which may or maynot be overpriced already.

 

[John_Conley]

I am not sure many of you guys will care but i will try to do the gulf coast, being La, southern Miss, Ala and nw Florida. John how do you figure conditioning or consistancy of conditioning into your system.

I played Camp Creek, Regatta, Kelly, Raven, Burnt Pine, and Lagoon Legend this summer.  Finding out where Regatta lies lets me know I don't need to play anything below it!!  How is Kiva Dunes?  Instead of telling me VG, Exc, Fine, Good, etc..., you'll do much better by giving me a decile!

I don't really count conditioning much.  We had a drought and everything was bad and some were awful.  Pine Barrens was so bad they moved the State Am to Rolling Oaks.  But it is in good shape now and is a world-class course.  Taking it down deciles for something i) temporary, and ii) closely tied to budget doesn't make sense.

I also try not to factor in cost.  If you don't mind paying three figs for a round, how am I to tell you Champions Gate charges too much?  If you don't get a thrill out of an undiscovered 7th deciler at $12, why should I give it props?

[John_Conley]

Hi John,  What does Zagat style mean?  I can't find a definition anywhere. Is it Dutch?

In the event you're not kidding, Zagat's survey is the foremost restaurant guide.

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