Best Fringe Courses

[Zack Molnar]

I was reading back through some recent threads and I ran across this talking about how NGLA was nowhere to be seen in the rankings in the early 80s: http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,49287.0.html

It got me thinking about what are the NGLA's of the 80's in current times? Could be courses that have fallen out of the spotlight and just need a little work to get back to the top, or courses that are just out of the limelight but will soon be getting there.

Thoughts?

[Michael George]

I think the course most likely to see a big resurgence in rankings is Yale - due to better conditioning and increased popularity of MacDonald/Raynor.  Every person that has played it says it is better than its rankings.


A modern courses that I could see getting better ranked (into the top 100) is Erin Hills (the Open being there).

[Tom ORourke]

I think there are some older courses in the Philadelphia area that are taken for granted. Rolling Green comes to mind. It gets some props here but not nationally as the Women's Open was back in 1976 and nothing since. It is a bit short for a mens event but has had some work done recently to update it. You could look at a number of Flynn courses around the area for more semi-forgotten gems, like Lehigh or Atlantic City. I think the exposure that Aronimink gathered from their tour event the past two years is an example of the fact that these courses are there, just not being seen on TV. I would like to see Rolling Green get another shot of exposure and it might jump up quite a few spots. These courses are not going to go to the national top 10 list but should be more respected than they are.

[Shane Wright]

Ballyneal - yes, I'm serious.

Hardly anyone outside of the GCA and GCA lurker world has heard of it. 

I'm going to have completely blind faith and hope the other stuff works out.  WHEN it does, Ballyneal will continue to rise. 

[Mark Saltzman]

From what I've seen, the most underrated / least well-known that should receive greater recognition:

In the US: Old Town Club

In Canada: Lookout Point; Kawartha

[don_bartlett]

From what I've seen, the most underrated / least well-known that should receive greater recognition:

In the US: Old Town Club

In Canada: Lookout Point; Kawartha

+1 on Lookout Point... Although the last 4 holes are rather pedestrian... 

[Jud_T]

In the absence of Matt Ward, and although it's been discussed extensively elsewhere, aside from statistical distribution noise and the love/hate of scorecard pencil pushing rater scum, I defy anyone to make a cogent argument why Kingsley should not be in the top 100 in both Golf Magazine and Digest.

[Mark Saltzman]

From what I've seen, the most underrated / least well-known that should receive greater recognition:

In the US: Old Town Club

In Canada: Lookout Point; Kawartha

+1 on Lookout Point... Although the last 4 holes are rather pedestrian... 

17 has a new tee and is a tough mother of a hole now. And you should see where they're putting a new tee in on 16...wayyyy back by 15 green.

18 has a really difficult green-- I was told too wild if they get the greens really running.

I wonder what Ian Andrew thinks of the centerline tree on 15?

[Adam Clayman]

I'll throw out two. Greywalls and Rustic Canyon.

[Michael George]

I think there are 2 different questions being answered here.  

(1) The one posed was what courses could be making a rise up the rankings (regardless of reason); and
(2) The other being answered here more often is what courses deserve to be higher in the rankings.

I answered #1.

In answer to #2, based on what I have read and seen in pictures, I would think the following should be ranked higher - Yale, Eastward Ho, Kingsley, Baltimore CC and Brookside.

[don_bartlett]

From what I've seen, the most underrated / least well-known that should receive greater recognition:

In the US: Old Town Club

In Canada: Lookout Point; Kawartha

+1 on Lookout Point... Although the last 4 holes are rather pedestrian... 

17 has a new tee and is a tough mother of a hole now. And you should see where they're putting a new tee in on 16...wayyyy back by 15 green.

18 has a really difficult green-- I was told too wild if they get the greens really running.

I wonder what Ian Andrew thinks of the centerline tree on 15?

I played the course 2 weeks ago and I did see the new tees.  18 is a short hole with a great greensite.  I should have quantified my comments to reflect that I found I hit the same 2 cliubs (3H -PW) for the last 4 holes.  Granted that will change with the new tees.  I enjoyed the course quite a bit, especially the par 5 7th - not overly long but a fantastic approach and green...  

[Dan Byrnes]

I think the course most likely to see a big resurgence in rankings is Yale - due to better conditioning and increased popularity of MacDonald/Raynor.  Every person that has played it says it is better than its rankings.

Other old courses that I understand by many are not properly appreciated in the rankings, but unlikely to change much, are:

Eastward Ho
Lancaster
Sleepy Hollow

A modern courses that I could see getting better ranked (into the top 100) is Erin Hills (the Open being there).

I think Sleepy Hollow is to much mishmash of styles.  Some spectacular holes and some not so ones.  It being in the Met section might help but the quality isn't there all 18 IMHO.  Certainly the spectacular ones are top notch. 

Dan

[Steve Salmen]

I defy anyone to make a cogent argument why Kingsley should not be in the top 100 in both Golf Magazine and Digest.

The turf at Kingsley is the best non seaside ground I've ever played golf on.

That being said, after two stiff Manhattans, this is my opinion:

#1 absolutely sucks--up-down-up-down-up
#2 absolutely sucks- fly an approach to an unstoppable green to a pin placement cut tight
#3,4,5, pretty good holes
#6 Horrible approach, unless you live for uphill chips
#7 One of the worst tee shots in golf, unless you love hitting a good shot and winding up in trees or behind them.
#8 I like this hole
#9 Hit and hope
I like the back except the approach to #15.

Perhaps it does belong in the top 100.  I've played a lot worse, I'm just not ready to swallow the Kool Aid.

[Andy Troeger]

I love Kingsley and agree its easily a top 100 course. I also think Black Mesa and Wolf Run are woefully underrated.

I do have one friend who I consider knowledgeable who criticized Kingsley because too many holes were too severe in terms of the slopes leading balls away from greens. There are admittdly a lot of holes where the difference between a good shot and a ball rolling away is pretty small. I'm ok with that, but I can also see how its not for everyone.

[Ian Andrew]

[+1 on Lookout Point... Although the last 4 holes are rather pedestrian...  

Don,

The old finish was from the 15th and then to the 7th, 8th and 9th.

The other nine finished five, four, short four. The 16th and 17th were one super long five, the 18th was a dogleg right to a green set in a bowl, and the final hole played from the edge of the current 8th over the valley to the current practice green!

The run of shotish fours has always been the criticism, although as of this year the 17th is now 429 from the back tee.

I wonder what Ian Andrew thinks of the centerline tree on 15?

I hate it

[Ian Andrew]

Yale - easily in my top 25 - don't understand the lack of love for this great course

Essex County - my favourite Ross - I think people have simply not seen it.

[Mac Plumart]

I don't have a lot of experience with these courses yet, but I have a sneaking suspicion that Cleveland area golf is under-rated.

Also, Renaissance is under-rated.

Rock Creek is over-looked by some of the rating entities. (I think only Golfweek ranks it right now).

Royal Melbourne appears to be under-appreciated (but I haven't played it/them).  Even though it is highly rated.  Is Augusta rated higher than Royal Melbourne?

And you all know I think Dismal is under-rated.

Oh yeah...Chinese courses are surely over-looked right now.  This may take time for enough people to get out there to check these courses out, however.

[Sean_A]

I think the University of Michigan course is set to rise in the future.  I would think it should have a great shot at making top 100 classic.  I can't see any discernible difference in quality between it and Yeamans Hall - and I think its better than Rolling Green and Pine Needles.

Ciao 

[Matthew MacKay]

Mark, 100% agree that Kawartha sets the golf standard in Canada for being overlooked/underrated, with Lookout not too far behind. Some others in Canada would include Blackhawk, Wolf Creek, St. Thomas, Mt Bruno, Cherry Hill, Mad River, Maple Downs, Sarnia, Montebello, Lakeview.

I also think Toronto Golf is underrated, and the best Colt course in Canada.

Stateside: Eastward Ho!, Indianwood Old, Chechessee Creek, Crag Burn, Monroe, Irondequoit, Columbia, Winchester.

Re: tree on 15 at Lookout...it's gotta go.

[Ronald Montesano]

When I think of the two Canadian Niagara Travis courses, my experience is so woefully one-sided that my opinion must be discarded. That said, the tree clearing that Mother Nature and Ian Andrew wrought, along with the bunker work that Mr. Andrew achieved took a course filled with apparently-flat, deceptively-undulating holes and unbelievable greens (plus a secret) from nice members course to would you look at that?! That would be Cherry Hill.

I've played Lookout Point once, so I can't recall all the holes, much less give an opinion on them. A course that gave us Marlene Stewart Streit (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marlene_Streit) however, clearly has the teeth and the bone structure of lore. I think that the LP property is much more interesting than the CH one, which would place it ahead at the start of the race. If one were to have the good fortune to play both courses in a day (manageable, about 45 minutes apart), said one would be forever enchanted by what Walter J. Travis could bring to turf.

[Ronald Montesano]

Along the I-90, from Buffalo to Albany

Stafford (near Batavia)
CCR and Monroe (Rochester)
Bellevue (Syracuse)
Yahnundasis (New Hartford)
Mohawk (Schenectady)

Are these NGLA level? No. Are they ODG courses...uh huh. Do they adhere to classic principles...jess.

[Dan Byrnes]

Along the I-90, from Buffalo to Albany

Stafford (near Batavia, NY)
CCR and Monroe (Rochester, NY)
Bellevue (Syracuse)
Yahnundasis (Rome, NY)

Are these NGLA level? No. Are they ODG courses...uh huh. Do they adhere to classic principles...jess.

How does Mohawk Golf Club compare to these?  Have you played many of the other Capital District courses.

Dan

[Ronald Montesano]

Amended...sometimes I forget my most recent girlfriend's name.

[Jud_T]

I defy anyone to make a cogent argument why Kingsley should not be in the top 100 in both Golf Magazine and Digest.

The turf at Kingsley is the best non seaside ground I've ever played golf on.

That being said, after two stiff Manhattans, this is my opinion:

#1 absolutely sucks--up-down-up-down-up

Really?  A tougher opener than I'd like but many love this hole.  Typically it's hackers like me who whine about not being able to carry the hill and get the turbo boost rather than sticks like yourself.  Besides, it's only up-down-up.  

#2 absolutely sucks- fly an approach to an unstoppable green to a pin placement cut tight

Well apparently you disagree with our fearless leader: "Perhaps the finest short one-shotter built since World War II".  Granted, I think it's the toughest hole on the course, but isn't that kind of cool for a 150 yd. hole for a change?.  If one plays the hole properly and lands the ball on the front of the green and aims for the center and not the pin, it's perfectly playable.  Take your 3 and get on with it.  Getting greedy will cost you more than one stroke in most instances, which really pisses off the scorecard and pencil set.

#3,4,5, pretty good holes

#6 Horrible approach, unless you live for uphill chips

Seriously?  One of the more fun shots on the course IMO if you know to play it over the front right bunker and use the slope.

#7 One of the worst tee shots in golf, unless you love hitting a good shot and winding up in trees or behind them.

As discussed on another thread,  you either played the wrong tees or the wrong club.  It's a 3 shot hole for anyone who's not an aspiring tour player and needs to be played as such.  It's not as if there isn't enough fairway out there.  Can you really reach the furthest trees from the tips?  Must have had your wheaties (or can't play a fade  )

#8 I like this hole

#9 Hit and hope

Perhaps, but what a green site!  And there's a huge difference between hitting and hoping to the inside or the outside of the elbow.  Besides I thought you could hit a 135 yard wedge into a garbage can in your sleep  

I like the back except the approach to #15.

Who said you had to be on in reg?  Also discussed extensively elsewhere.  A very cool man-made green and satisfying up and down.

Perhaps it does belong in the top 100.  I've played a lot worse, I'm just not ready to swallow the Kool Aid.

I'd make the market on how many times you've played the course 1-2 based on your comments, and perhaps that's part of the problem with the raters.  At a member's club like this that takes more than a few plays to get your head around slam-bam thank you mam bedpost notching types may come away scratching their heads.

[Andy Troeger]

Jud,
I don't really buy the 1-2 plays argument. I loved it the first time around, and playing it more would probably strengthen that position. Its not a course where people walk away thinking it was "ok," in most cases, and those that dislike the quirk won't like it any better after more plays because its still going to be quirky. I could see #2 and #9 irritating a lot of golfers--those two are too severe at least in spots IMO, but close enough (and fun enough) that I smiled and move on. Well...I didn't smile at #2 but I got aggressive and paid the price and would play the whole differently next time.

The good thing is that the guys who didn't like it the first time won't go back and re-rate it, while the guys that did like it probably will, so at least using the Digest format where ratings expire, its bound to continue to go up.