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Joe Hancock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Primo?
« Reply #25 on: December 03, 2005, 11:56:07 AM »
Jim,

The only time I think non-turfheads benefit from details is when they realize that the best supers have a level of knowledge that is far beyond statements such as "using Primo makes greens faster".

If Roger is doing something non-conventional or cutting edge, and it produces a healthy, firm playing surface, then by all means.

Joe
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Jim Thompson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Primo?
« Reply #26 on: December 03, 2005, 11:59:04 AM »
I need to go to the shop this afternoon anyway.  I'll get a copy and post.  I know the dean is never conventional not to mention the rest of us ;D

JT
Jim Thompson

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Primo?
« Reply #27 on: December 03, 2005, 10:10:11 PM »
John Chassard at Lehigh has been using Primo for a number of years now and I'm sure would be happy to speak with anyone who has questions about it.  

Steve Okula

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Primo?
« Reply #28 on: December 04, 2005, 08:45:21 AM »
I'm managing 36 holes of Penncross/Poa (50/50) greens, and I've been using Primo for the past three years. It has helped the putting surfaces considerably.

First, the Penncross and the Poa tend to grow, vertically and laterally, at different rates. This would lead to bumpy and inconsistent surfaces. The growth regulator diminishes this disparity, so I have smoother, more consistent greens.

Adding Proxy to the mix led to further improvement, as the Poa seed heads disappeared, the Poa was even less noticeable, especially concerning ball roll.

I'll try to explain the effect of Primo as I understand it. What it does is it inhibits cell elongation, so the same number of cells are compacted into less area. Thus, you have all the benefits of photsynthisis and respiration in less leaf surface area. This means a denser and lower growing sward. What I've found, also, is it means I can mow lower with less stress to the plant, meaning faster speeds without the evil side effects, like thinning, algae and moss being so invasive.

I have seen no bad effects from Primo. One time the sprayer lost a nozzle across a green, and before the operator noticed he had done two passes. This put out a narrow strip of Primo (mixed with some iron and nitrogen) that must have been at least ten times recommended rate. The only result was that those stripes were dark green for about 3 months. This was on Poa, too, so I don't know where people get that it's hard on Poa.

I don't know that Primo has much effect on fertilizer, chemical, and water usage. It seems to me that it would be a benefit regardless if you were on high N, low water, or any combination.
The small wheel turns by the fire and rod,
the big wheel turns by the grace of God.

Michael Hayes

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Primo?
« Reply #29 on: December 05, 2005, 02:59:03 AM »
great topic and one that I must chime in on...

I manage a 100 percent poa course in the puget sound region of Washington.  Primo is an essential part of my turf care regime.  On greens I spray 0.15 oz/1000 every 10 days, with 2.5 oz/1000 FE3SO4.  Mixing proxy for seedheads (5oz/1000) has solved seedhead issues post aerification. Proxy is best done with 2-10 day apps...All other shortgrass is managed with .25 oz/1000 per month April-Oct.  I have a small budget relative to most private clubs here <500K.  One thing that I do with primo is I use it to turn cheap Ag NH4SO4 into slow release fert by timing my primo apps with the growth flush.  It really helps me to save alot of money (200-400/ton).  Primo has allowed my smallish staff to dedicate significant time to important project by saving us about 15% of our mowing time.  My spray rig and primo have saved my club many many 1000's

Michael Hayes
Bandonistas Unite!!!

Marc Haring

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Primo?
« Reply #30 on: December 05, 2005, 03:54:21 AM »
Here in the UK we are nowhere near the technological advancement and attention to detail that you Guy’s are at, but I did try a growth regulator for a season here. There were clear benefits but in the end I concluded that I just needed to lower the fertiliser applications right down and effectively the grass would stop growing all by itself. I also raised the HOC and got a pretty good result. The greens ran at a good pace (about 9) and at the moment are in very healthy shape mid winter.

I guess being in the depths of England I can get away with such low input maintenance. I envy the skill of you Guy’s but not the pressure you’re under to get it absolutely perfect day in day out.

Steve Curry

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Primo?
« Reply #31 on: December 05, 2005, 11:40:36 AM »
Primo is an integral part of my green and fairway management programs.  Makes fast and firm much more attainable as well as reducing the need for some of the super aggressive practices it can take to get there.

Steve

Dan_Lucas

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Primo?
« Reply #32 on: December 05, 2005, 12:26:36 PM »
Joe

Less water and fertilizer? What a shame. ;D

I have never needed to use primo to get F&F conditions. Partly because my past ownerships have bought into my opinion that green is not necessarily good. I don't care what color they are as long as they are healthy. We don't use much water or fertilizer and are more aggressive culturally than most. We beat the grass up ourselves because we don't have enough golfers to do it.

The climate also is a big factor. Transition zone supers can't be as hard on their grasses as we are in the frozen north so tools like Primo are a godsend for them.

Dan

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Primo?
« Reply #33 on: December 05, 2005, 02:07:34 PM »
Dan, what percentage of FWs and surrounds are fescue there at KC after some 3 years now?  

What keeps poa from invading into your turf stand?  What do you mean, beating it up enough to match Primo effects on turf using more fertility / irrigation practices?
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Dan_Lucas

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Primo?
« Reply #34 on: December 06, 2005, 10:54:47 AM »
RJ

Not fertilizing and watering is the main poa deterrent.

The biggest poa problem we have is on our green collars. We have to water our bent greens more often than the fescue. With bent greens and fescue collars the green irrigation heads also overspray onto the collars giving a competitive edge to the poa over the fescue. Greens fetilizer also ends up on the collars.We have done some overseeding of colonial bents in a couple collar/approach areas that has been very successful and will continue to do more. We do have poa but so far have been able to keep the fescue competitive in most areas. Any percentage figure would be pure guesswork. The fescue is still very dominant in most areas.

By beating up the greens I mean verticutting, grooming, topdressing, starving and not watering it.

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Primo?
« Reply #35 on: December 06, 2005, 01:41:37 PM »
Thanks Dan, one more question... ;)

How does a special section of fairway at the bottom of a slope, like the right side of 18FW at KC fair in allowing poa to invade the fescue.  Can you keep fescue dominant in low areas like that?  Do you have to do somethin on a spot treatment or isolated basis to low areas that gather more water and nutrient run migration?
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Dan_Lucas

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Primo?
« Reply #36 on: December 06, 2005, 02:01:25 PM »
Dick

The highest poa populations are in the lower collection areas on the course. Most of these have been that way since grow in. The poa jumped in very quickly in all the areas that took a longer time to establish at grow in. Some of the lower areas, because of washouts were the worst of these areas.

#18 was a story in itself for grow in because it washed out at least three times before we finally got it established. We left too many trees on that upslope left of the FW (south side) when constructed. A mistake that will be corrected this spring. #18 FW is also very rocky and the low areas silted up from the washouts during seeding. Still the fescue is pretty much holding it's own down there.

Dan

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Primo?
« Reply #37 on: December 06, 2005, 02:06:03 PM »
Thanks again Dan.  I'd like to be a fly on the wall when you get together to talk about your experiences with the very few fescue turf managers... ;) ;D
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.