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Jay Flemma

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St. George's and quirk, starring Hanse, Pat Mucci, and other GCAers
« on: November 21, 2011, 07:40:45 PM »
Quirk - it's what's for dinner!  Thanks to all who helped out.

http://jayflemma.thegolfspace.com/?p=4028

From the article:

“There are a lot of downhill approaches at St. George’s and I really like that. I don’t know why we don’t see more of that now,” Hanse noted. When asked if perhaps Emmet was simply designing into the teeth of the most dramatic features of the property to create the most dramatic golf holes, he agreed.

“That’s exactly what the best architects do to build the best courses,” he stated. “You have to make the best use of the landscape, and at St. George’s there are quite a number of excellent downhill approaches. It’s that variety that is one of the reasons why St. George’s is such a unique and excellent club.”
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David Harshbarger

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Re: St. George's and quirk, starring Hanse, Pat Mucci, and other GCAers
« Reply #1 on: November 21, 2011, 07:48:13 PM »
+1
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Jay Flemma

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Re: St. George's and quirk, starring Hanse, Pat Mucci, and other GCAers
« Reply #2 on: November 21, 2011, 07:56:57 PM »
You get a nice slice in there David.  You and the boys had great observations about the "learned discussion." :)

Plus I properly used that word:):)
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Will Lozier

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Re: St. George's and quirk, starring Hanse, Pat Mucci, and other GCAers
« Reply #3 on: November 21, 2011, 08:05:20 PM »
Jay,

St. George's looks like a real gem which you've gone to great lengths to detail - otherwise, I doubt if I would have ever heard of it - so thanks to you and your friend Mike!  Although I haven't had time to read the whole article, I have to question your comparison of the 17th at SG with the 16th at Sandwich.  There is no false front at RSG...there is a false edge if you will that feeds balls into the right bunker - this is where Bjorn lost the Open.  16 at SG looks to be a more interesting hole (and more fun) being 40 yards shorter with a raised green - 17 at RSG is almost sunken on three sides.  I see very little to compare - certainly not "eerily similar" or "brothers".  Did Patrick or Gil make the same comparison?

Also, as far as the course itself, I would think St. George's in Toronto would be a better course to draw parallels to as far as look and design features.

Cheers
« Last Edit: November 23, 2011, 06:46:14 PM by Will Lozier »
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Tim Martin

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Re: St. George's and quirk, starring Hanse, Pat Mucci, and other GCAers
« Reply #4 on: November 21, 2011, 08:28:45 PM »
Just about as much fun as one can have without the Dallas Cowboy cheerleaders involved. The panoramic view you have out over the golf course from the deck is as good as it gets. If St. Georges is quirky then I am a quirkaholic with no desire to take the cure.
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Jay Flemma

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Re: St. George's and quirk, starring Hanse, Pat Mucci, and other GCAers
« Reply #5 on: November 21, 2011, 09:09:16 PM »
Thanks guys.  BTW-that "Mike" is Mike Whitaker!!
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Michael Whitaker

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Re: St. George's and quirk, starring Hanse, Pat Mucci, and other GCAers
« Reply #6 on: November 21, 2011, 09:14:56 PM »
Jay - I'm glad I pointed you in the direction of St Georges. It is an outstanding course and deserves more recognition.

As for your article:  I never in my life thought I would see Greenville SC, Pat Mucci, and "vulva" mentioned in the same story. I don't quite know what to say... I'm truly speechless!  :o
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"Solving the paradox of proportionality is the heart of golf architecture."  - Tom Doak (11/20/05)

Jay Flemma

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Re: St. George's and quirk, starring Hanse, Pat Mucci, and other GCAers
« Reply #7 on: November 21, 2011, 09:23:11 PM »
Best of all, it's Pat Mucci's vulva! ;D
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Mackenzie, MacRayBanks, Maxwell, Doak, Dye, Strantz. @JayGolfUSA, GNN Radio Host of Jay's Plays www.cybergolf.com/writerscorner

Will Lozier

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Re: St. George's and quirk, starring Hanse, Pat Mucci, and other GCAers
« Reply #8 on: November 21, 2011, 09:32:00 PM »
Quote from: Jay Flemma on November 21, 2011, 09:23:11 PM
Best of all, it's Pat Mucci's vulva! ;D

Awesome...but can you speak to the architectural comparison between SG 17th and Sandwich's 16th?
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Jay Flemma

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Re: St. George's and quirk, starring Hanse, Pat Mucci, and other GCAers
« Reply #9 on: November 21, 2011, 09:35:44 PM »
I think both the concept - and most certainly the effect - are the same...balls rlling off the green into bunkers...then the same thing happening over again!!!
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Patrick Kiser

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Re: St. George's and quirk, starring Hanse, Pat Mucci, and other GCAers
« Reply #10 on: November 21, 2011, 10:35:48 PM »
One of the most fun things I thought St.George's demonstrated was the wonderful, creative, and effective use of blindness.  Superior effort here.

I agree the restoration here is impressive.  It goes to show when have a tree management program and work on restoring playing surfaces ... you can go a very long way towards making a fun course even better.  Clearly, more has taken place, but those two aspects contributed greatly.

Let's not forget Adam Jessie and his team here doing a great job in bringing this gem back into the limelight as well.
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or less of a nuisance, is water. Water hazards
absolutely prohibit the recovery shot, perhaps
the best shot in the game.” —William Flynn, golf
course architect

Garland Bayley

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Re: St. George's and quirk, starring Hanse, Pat Mucci, and other GCAers
« Reply #11 on: November 22, 2011, 12:27:04 AM »
Way to dis' Stanley Thompson and our friends to the north.
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"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Keith OHalloran

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Re: St. George's and quirk, starring Hanse, Pat Mucci, and other GCAers
« Reply #12 on: November 22, 2011, 08:16:20 AM »
St George's should be a case study on what can happen to a golf course when they get good advice (Gil Hanse) and a president that has the willingness to press forward (John Ammerman).  There were many times that the tree removal was met with reluctance, and the new mowing patterns were a bit controversial at the beginning. In the end, John Ammerman knew that it was the right thing to do, and pushed forward, the course, is much better as a result, and the membership should all be happy.
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Dave Falkner

Re: St. George's and quirk, starring Hanse, Pat Mucci, and other GCAers
« Reply #13 on: November 22, 2011, 12:23:05 PM »
Who wants to play sat?

Saturday: Partly sunny, with a high near 57
« Last Edit: November 22, 2011, 12:33:51 PM by Dave Falkner »
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Joe Bausch

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Re: St. George's and quirk, starring Hanse, Pat Mucci, and other GCAers
« Reply #14 on: November 22, 2011, 12:36:13 PM »
Quote from: Dave Falkner on November 22, 2011, 12:23:05 PM
Who wants to play sat?

Saturday: Partly sunny, with a high near 57

If the Donald can swing by and pick me up at 'Nova in the copter, then up to East Setauket, I'm there.   ;D
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Dave Falkner

Re: St. George's and quirk, starring Hanse, Pat Mucci, and other GCAers
« Reply #15 on: November 22, 2011, 12:41:21 PM »
Joe  doesnt he capitalize the the "T" in "the"?

but there is a helipad right there at the hospital
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Steve_ Shaffer

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Re: St. George's and quirk, starring Hanse, Pat Mucci, and other GCAers
« Reply #16 on: November 22, 2011, 12:48:40 PM »
Dave,

A well stocked limo is fine with me. 
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Dave Falkner

Re: St. George's and quirk, starring Hanse, Pat Mucci, and other GCAers
« Reply #17 on: November 22, 2011, 12:50:34 PM »
Steve

how do you define "well stocked"?
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Steve_ Shaffer

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Re: St. George's and quirk, starring Hanse, Pat Mucci, and other GCAers
« Reply #18 on: November 22, 2011, 01:08:33 PM »
Dave,

The usual  ;D
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"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Jay Flemma

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: St. George's and quirk, starring Hanse, Pat Mucci, and other GCAers
« Reply #19 on: November 22, 2011, 02:11:14 PM »
I'd love to, but I'm home w/family, but soon:)
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Will Lozier

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Re: St. George's and quirk, starring Hanse, Pat Mucci, and other GCAers
« Reply #20 on: November 22, 2011, 03:29:06 PM »
Quote from: Jay Flemma on November 21, 2011, 09:35:44 PM
I think both the concept - and most certainly the effect - are the same...balls rlling off the green into bunkers...then the same thing happening over again!!!

Jay,

You drew far stronger comparisons in your article and lamely back up those comparisons here.  Since this thread has managed to turn into nothing more than small talk, I'll bow out now.  It is a shame because the course seems well worth some real debate.

Keith & Patrick,

Thanks for your comments about the course.  They have been the only things said that I've been able to glean any information from.  If you have more to add, I'll rejoin the discussion.  Do you two have any comment on Jay's comparisons with RSG?

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Keith OHalloran

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Re: St. George's and quirk, starring Hanse, Pat Mucci, and other GCAers
« Reply #21 on: November 22, 2011, 03:56:24 PM »
Will,
I have never played RSG, so it is hard for me to make comparisons. The 17th hole is a great short par 3 with  large false front that runs down into bunkers. The tee shot is a carry over a ravine. The shot is usually only in the 125 yeard area, but it is very exacting as you can not land on about half of a very small green. The back portion of the green is flat, and that is the only safe zone to land on.  I very precise shot, but generally hit with a short iron.
The course is one of the most fun course I have ever played. 
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Doug Wright

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Re: St. George's and quirk, starring Hanse, Pat Mucci, and other GCAers
« Reply #22 on: November 22, 2011, 04:05:18 PM »
Quote from: Patrick Kiser on November 21, 2011, 10:35:48 PM
Let's not forget Adam Jessie and his team here doing a great job in bringing this gem back into the limelight as well.

Glad to see Adam Jessie there and doing well. I believe he was on GCA.com a long time ago as a student at Colorado State, worked here in the Denver area and then caught on at Shinnecock as an assistant. Sounds like a successful career has been launched.
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Dave Falkner

Re: St. George's and quirk, starring Hanse, Pat Mucci, and other GCAers
« Reply #23 on: November 22, 2011, 04:28:39 PM »
Keith- spoken like a true architectural expert

Doug- of course he is suffering the slings and arrows of a fickle membership but I for one think he is doing a great job

Will- werent you also engaging in small talk by pointing out that the thread "has managed to turn into nothing more than small talk"
      well thanks for bowing out at any rate
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Will Lozier

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Re: St. George's and quirk, starring Hanse, Pat Mucci, and other GCAers
« Reply #24 on: November 22, 2011, 06:58:59 PM »
Quote from: Keith OHalloran on November 22, 2011, 03:56:24 PM
Will,
I have never played RSG, so it is hard for me to make comparisons. The 17th hole is a great short par 3 with  large false front that runs down into bunkers. The tee shot is a carry over a ravine. The shot is usually only in the 125 yeard area, but it is very exacting as you can not land on about half of a very small green. The back portion of the green is flat, and that is the only safe zone to land on.  I very precise shot, but generally hit with a short iron.
The course is one of the most fun course I have ever played.  

Thanks Keith.  It looks like a great short (short) hole with it's hilltop to hilltop shot to a wickedly sloped green.  I would imagine in any sort of brisk wind (from any direction) it can be a daunting task to keep it below the hole (where I assume you need to be).  The 16th at Sandwich is not a similar hole.  It plays over undulating (but level) ground with no particular slope other than that which bleeds balls into that right bunker that undid T. Bjorn.  It is a relatively benign hole relative to the rest of what is an excellent (and incredibly difficult) course with a number of truly unique golf holes.  Royal Cinque Ports' 4th might be a hole closer in character and playing characteristics to this little beauty - similar yardage, over a little chasm, with a little bit of a false front (no bunkers to clear). 

Dave, there are more appropriate ways to set up your golf games.  I am simply trying to learn more about what looks like an architectural gem through a thread that is meant to do just that.  
« Last Edit: November 22, 2011, 07:02:14 PM by Will Lozier »
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