[Scott Stearns]

Anybody from Down under have a view on whether the "flow" of the RM composite course feels better/worse than the "flow" of the individual courses?  Very often i feel like starting in #10, or out on the course in a shotgun, isn't as much fun as going off #1, because i dont get the same sort of buildup.  This true at RM?

Same question might go for TCC's composite.

[Tom_Doak]

Scott:

The "flow" of The Country Club would not be much different between the regular and composite courses.  Both start with the same few holes and end with the same few holes; they only diverge in the middle where the Composite course is significantly harder from #9 through #13.

The flow of the Composite course at Royal Melbourne is very much different than either the East or West courses, and, of course, they keep changing the sequence for events.  The iteration they used this week is certainly not ideal for normal member play ... you start out with some of the biggest and most dramatic holes on the course, and then you use the wide opening hole as the 17th?  But, realistically, the Composite Course is not intended for member play at all, so issues of ideal flow for member play are more or less moot.

[Michael George]

Tom:

I have regularly indicated my displeasure with composite courses.  I know why they are necessary for tournament play, but just want to see the course as designed, not re-created.

With your knowledge of golf courses around the world, are there composites that you feel are better than the original on the Doak scale?

[David_Elvins]

The original composite course routing at royal Melbourne has the best flow of any course on the property, and perhaps the world.  There are less long walks on the course than on the east or west course and the flow of the hole types was fantastic.

[Andy Stamm]

The original composite course routing at royal Melbourne has the best flow of any course on the property, and perhaps the world.  There are less long walks on the course than on the east or west course and the flow of the hole types was fantastic.

When was the composite course first used and why? I think I know why it's used now (crowd movement) and why this composite was choosen (ditto and match play set up). But, why was it first used many moons ago when crowds were likely many times smaller???

[Warwick Loton]

The original composite course routing at royal Melbourne has the best flow of any course on the property, and perhaps the world.  There are less long walks on the course than on the east or west course and the flow of the hole types was fantastic.

When was the composite course first used and why? I think I know why it's used now (crowd movement) and why this composite was choosen (ditto and match play set up). But, why was it first used many moons ago when crowds were likely many times smaller???

The "Composite" layout was first used for the 1959 Canada Cup (now called the World Cup). At the time, Australia had never staged a golf event on a scale anything like that one. Huge crowds were expected, and the police didn't want to have to control crowds swarming crossing the roads. Until the Composite was first used, nobody seems to have recognised how good it would be: it wasn't created to make a superior layout; nor was there the intent to ever use it again. It has subsequently been widely considered a superior test for pro competitions. Since 1959, the East course has hosted an Australian Open and an Australian PGA Championship, but all other pro events have been played on the Composite.

Prior to 1959 the Club had played around with the layouts a bit. For example, in an Australian Open prior to WWII they tried including two holes from the East with 16 from the West, so that was technically a composite layout although not referred to as such. That experimentation had nothing to do with crowd control.

[mike_beene]

If I am seeing it correctly,it looks like the East wanders a long way out with maybe two road crossings?Are there tunnels?Is there a fence around the property? again,if I am reading it correctly,it looks like just four holes on west are across a street. how far was the first tee they were using from the clubhouse.Did they use the real range or a hole not in use?Is the range adequate in length for these guys?

[Sven Nilsen]

If I am seeing it correctly,it looks like the East wanders a long way out with maybe two road crossings?Are there tunnels?Is there a fence around the property? again,if I am reading it correctly,it looks like just four holes on west are across a street. how far was the first tee they were using from the clubhouse.Did they use the real range or a hole not in use?Is the range adequate in length for these guys?

The first hole for the west course is a few steps off of the putting green.  The first for the east course lies probably about 100 yards further from the clubhouse from that spot, as does the tee for the third hole on the west course, which served as the first for the PC composite course. 

With respect to the range, RM has a couple of nets set up close to the 1st tee for both the East and West courses (see John Mayhugh's latest photo thread).  There is no real range on the property.  The range setup for the presidents cup utilized a couple of the fairways from Sandringham Golf Course, which borders RM.  That course also provided a bit of the parking for the event.

[Scott Stearns]

were these courses both laid out by MacKenzie?

[Warwick Loton]

Anybody from Down under have a view on whether the "flow" of the RM composite course feels better/worse than the "flow" of the individual courses?  Very often i feel like starting in #10, or out on the course in a shotgun, isn't as much fun as going off #1, because i dont get the same sort of buildup.  This true at RM?

Same question might go for TCC's composite.

The original Composite layout (from 1959) is the version that's been used most often. One big difference between it and the individual courses is that it is a more intense experience: there are no breather holes to create an ebb and flow during the round. This still applies for everyday standard amateurs, though no longer for pros with the distances they now hit.

Tom is astute as ever in his comments about this week's layout being less well suited to everyday amateurs. In particular, there is a feeling "like starting in #10, or out on the course in a shotgun". However, compared to the 1959 Composite layout, this week's layout feels far less different from playing either the East or West, because there are longer sequences of holes from one or other course. For example, this weeks layout starts 3w-7w, immediately followed by 10w-12w and then 17w-18w; and later progresses 1e-3e, immediately followed by 16e-18e. There is a sense of playing one or other course and just skipping some holes / bypassing the holes in the paddocks across the road. In this sense its flow is more like the individual courses. This feeling doesn't pertain to the original version of the Composite, which flows quite differently.

[Sven Nilsen]

My understanding:

West Course - MacKenzie - 1931
East Course - Alex Russell - 1932

The seamlessness of the feel between the two is pretty remarkable considering MacKenzie's involvement with just the West.

[Bill_McBride]

My understanding:

West Course - MacKenzie - 1931
East Course - Alex Russell - 1932

The seamlessness of the feel between the two is pretty remarkable considering MacKenzie's involvement with just the West.

I thought West was 1926 when Mackenzie spent six months in Australia and New Zealand. 

[Kalen Braley]

I spent about an hour tracing all the holes on RMs website and mapped them from the aerial views.

It looks like the majority of the holes in the composite course come from MacKenzies West Course....that is the original Composite Course, not the one they used this past weekend.  (12 from West, 6 from East)

The East course has 4 road crossings, two streets on the way out, same two streets on the way back in.  MacKs course, 2 crossings, one street on the back 9, back across the same street for the last two holes.

It does indeed look like a brilliant routing for the composite course and being able to avoid these street crossings entirely.  The most awkward part appears to be having those two par 3s on the East course that show up in a row (only for the CC course, not for the East course) and having to bypass one of them for the composite.  But from ground level I'm sure there are other awkward spots as well.

[Warwick Loton]

Mac came out in 1926, and was in the country for just a matter of weeks. He left behind a design for the West; might have designed some holes that are now part of the East; and might have contributed via correspondence to Russell's design of the remainder of the East.

The courses took roughly 4-5 years to construct: it was mostly done by the Club's regular grounds crew, using horse power.

The construction of both courses was overseen by Alec Russell, who was on site virtually every day. The construction work on both courses was managed by the Club's Curator/Super, Mick Morcom (who was a guru, and who is credited with the Sandbelt style of bunkering). Russell and Morcom learnt much directly from Mac during his visit, and tried to honour his design philosophies. Russell was also Mac's Australian partner (a la Perry Maxwell and Robert Hunter); we know Mac and Russell maintained contact.

Russell's stamp is all over both courses. Mac's influence is magnificent and uncontested, but RM doesn't look like any of his other courses. The history of the design and construction of the courses is not well documented. There is contention about whether Mac or Russell was the primary designer of some of the East Course holes on the main paddock (holes now in the Composite layout). A number of people have strong opinions, but we don't know for certain. The genius of RM lies in the combined contribution of Mac, Russell and Morcom: defining their individual contributions is tricky.

[Bill_McBride]

I spent about an hour tracing all the holes on RMs website and mapped them from the aerial views.

It looks like the majority of the holes in the composite course come from MacKenzies West Course....that is the original Composite Course, not the one they used this past weekend.  (12 from West, 6 from East)

The East course has 4 road crossings, two streets on the way out, same two streets on the way back in.  MacKs course, 2 crossings, one street on the back 9, back across the same street for the last two holes.

It does indeed look like a brilliant routing for the composite course and being able to avoid these street crossings entirely.  The most awkward part appears to be having those two par 3s on the East course that show up in a row (only for the CC course, not for the East course) and having to bypass one of them for the composite.  But from ground level I'm sure there are other awkward spots as well.

Kalen, can you post that?  I'd love to see both RMW and RME with hole numbers, and the composite course overlaid.   My hero!

[mike_beene]

I am amazed the club built 36 holes at what was at the time a long way from the city.Did the club own additional land and have the courses laid out before selling the unused land for development? The layout seems to cover all the space available without squeezing holes in.

[Kalen Braley]

I spent about an hour tracing all the holes on RMs website and mapped them from the aerial views.

It looks like the majority of the holes in the composite course come from MacKenzies West Course....that is the original Composite Course, not the one they used this past weekend.  (12 from West, 6 from East)

The East course has 4 road crossings, two streets on the way out, same two streets on the way back in.  MacKs course, 2 crossings, one street on the back 9, back across the same street for the last two holes.

It does indeed look like a brilliant routing for the composite course and being able to avoid these street crossings entirely.  The most awkward part appears to be having those two par 3s on the East course that show up in a row (only for the CC course, not for the East course) and having to bypass one of them for the composite.  But from ground level I'm sure there are other awkward spots as well.

Kalen, can you post that?  I'd love to see both RMW and RME with hole numbers, and the composite course overlaid.   My hero!

Bill,

I'll work on this today.  Interestingly enough, the composite used for the Presidents cup was different from the "normal" composite as well, including using a different par 3.

[Kalen Braley]

Bill,

Here are the two courses.

Black = West/Mackenzie Course
Red = East/Russell Course.

You can see the East course winds its way thru the neighborhoods more, while the West has holes 13-16 across the street.

[Kalen Braley]

For these pics, you'll notice there are no road crossings, which makes it nice I guess.  The only difference in terms of holes used between the two is they use the 1st par 3 on the normal routing at hole 16, vs the 2nd par 3 for the Prez Cup event.

This 1st pic is the "normal" composite that they use:




This 2nd pic is the one they used for the Presidents Cup:

[Matt_Cohn]

With respect to the range, RM has a couple of nets set up close to the 1st tee for both the East and West courses (see John Mayhugh's latest photo thread).  There is no real range on the property.  The range setup for the presidents cup utilized a couple of the fairways from Sandringham Golf Course, which borders RM.  That course also provided a bit of the parking for the event.

That big rectangle isn't the driving range?

[Sven Nilsen]

Matt:

Didn't even realize that was there.  Not sure if it is a driving range or not, but when we played the only warm up facilities I was made aware of were the nets close to the first tee.  Using the range, even with the $5 per bucket visitor charge as noted on the clubs website, would have been useful.  When playing RMW 18 (12 on the map) the hedges blocked out any view of that area of the property.

If you go to the official site for the presidents cup (http://www.pgatour.com/tournaments/presidentscup/course/), it looks like that area was used as the public village and the range was located across the street at Sandringham.  From the looks of it, I don't think it has the length to accommodate the pros.

The clubs history page has some information on the development of the property:  http://www.royalmelbourne.com.au/guests/information/history.mhtml.

Sven

[Matthew Delahunty]

The big rectangle in the top centre of the photo is most definitely the driving range.  During the Presidents' Cup it housed the recreational village and they used the 1st and 9th fairways across the road at Sandringham Golf Course as practice fairways.

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