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Rick Shefchik

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Re: Introduction
« Reply #25 on: March 03, 2011, 03:19:09 PM »
Hi, Mark, from another Minnesotan. I hope you enjoy the site.

Dan's eagle-eye already spotted the stunner (for Minnesotans) on your list. We don't debate Willingers on this site because hardly any of the GCA participants have played it. Your hole-by-hole was accurate (from the perspective of a bomber -- sheesh, how long are you, anyway? There isn't a drivable par 4 for me at Willingers) but it did not reflect my primary take on the course: I believe there are more awkward shots at Willingers than any other course in Minnesota. It's not the role of a golf course architect to make the golfer comfortable, but on almost every hole at Willingers, there's a demand that makes me uncomfortable. It's the farthest thing from a "it's all there in front of you" kind of golf course. And it begins with the first shot -- the awkward angle over the water hazard that rewards a long bomb over the farthest point of the water, but anything more prudent -- or farther left -- leaves you a very long approach to the green, or has you chipping back to the fairway from the trees in the left rough.

I could go around the course and describe the various predicaments Garrett Gill's design -- and my bad play -- have put me in at Willingers, but I'll simply end this by saying that if you ever want to swap an invitation to White Bear, Interlachen or Minikahda for a paid-up greens fee to Willingers, give me a call.
"Golf is 20 percent mechanics and technique. The other 80 percent is philosophy, humor, tragedy, romance, melodrama, companionship, camaraderie, cussedness and conversation." - Grantland Rice

Shane Wright

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Re: Introduction
« Reply #26 on: March 03, 2011, 03:33:29 PM »
Mark,

Welcome to the board.  I'm in south Mpls as well.  

I think you are on some serious crack to think Willingers is better than Bethpage Black or Minikahda.  I have walked Interlachen a couple of times and that must have been a really bad batch of crack to think Willingers is better than Interlachen.

However, I love Willingers and would say that it is my second favorite course I've ever played under $50 behind Wild Horse. I think the strategy is fantastic.  There are about 3-6 different clubs you could hit off of every non par-3 hole.  IMHO, #3 is one of the best par 3's in all of Minnesota.

People either love or hate Willingers,  I love it and would be happy to tee it up with you there anytime.

Welcome to the board.

Shane
« Last Edit: March 03, 2011, 03:40:26 PM by Shane Wright »

Shane Wright

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Re: Introduction
« Reply #27 on: March 03, 2011, 03:39:08 PM »
Willingers is one of those courses that could probably fill numerous pages of discussions amongst those who have played it.  Maybe we should do it this summer sometime and I'd be happy to put together a series of pictures after this stupid white stuff leaves us.

Shane


Mark Johnson

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Re: Introduction
« Reply #28 on: March 03, 2011, 04:16:07 PM »
[

I can't imagine Trump having better views or strategy than Chambers Bay. I can't imagine it having better holes. Count me as an adversary. ;)


I wouldnt argue that.   My issue with Chambers Bay was that it was on the wrong side of the difficult tough/tricked up continum.  I am 4 handicap, didnt play the tips and didnt come close to breaking 90.   I think i had 94 or 95 with a few mulligans and i really only took one bad swing all day.    If they could get more water on that golf course, it would be top 5 on my list no doubt.

Mark Johnson

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Re: Introduction
« Reply #29 on: March 03, 2011, 04:18:17 PM »
, #3 is one of the best par 3's in all of Minnesota.


Shane


Fully agree.   I would argue it is one of the best par 3s under 150 yards i've ever played.   That and #8 are some of my all-time favorite golf holes.

Mark Johnson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Introduction
« Reply #30 on: March 03, 2011, 04:19:48 PM »
Mark:

Welcome from another Minnesotan.  Where do you play?

I'm a member at Bent Creek (pretty much because its right next to my office so I can get in practice and quick nines at night)  but i tend to play lots of the other courses around.

Mark Johnson

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Re: Introduction
« Reply #31 on: March 03, 2011, 04:21:27 PM »
Quote


Do you have any love for the courses in the Brainerd area?

i've played all of the grand view lodge courses plus one of the courses at Maddens.   Thought Deacons lodge was good, not great.   In all honesty, if my family and I go up north, we will go to Giants Ridge instead.   Love both of the courses up there.   I think the Quarry is great.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2011, 04:31:48 PM by Mark Johnson »

Garland Bayley

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Re: Introduction
« Reply #32 on: March 03, 2011, 04:26:45 PM »
[

I can't imagine Trump having better views or strategy than Chambers Bay. I can't imagine it having better holes. Count me as an adversary. ;)


I wouldnt argue that.   My issue with Chambers Bay was that it was on the wrong side of the difficult tough/tricked up continum.  I am 4 handicap, didnt play the tips and didnt come close to breaking 90.   I think i had 94 or 95 with a few mulligans and i really only took one bad swing all day.    If they could get more water on that golf course, it would be top 5 on my list no doubt.

??? My handicap is over 20, I begged for 3 strokes per side, played a nassau against Dr. Gray there, and took him down. Along the way I made 5 pars on the front nine, and a few on the back, where I did have a stretch of 3 or 4 bad holes before regaining some game. Don't know what I shot, but then golf is not supposed to be about score.

And, please do not start advocating over-watering of golf courses! They have more water available to water Chambers Bay than they know what to do with.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Dan Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Introduction
« Reply #33 on: March 03, 2011, 04:28:43 PM »
Hi, Mark, from another Minnesotan. I hope you enjoy the site.

Dan's eagle-eye already spotted the stunner (for Minnesotans) on your list. We don't debate Willingers on this site because hardly any of the GCA participants have played it. Your hole-by-hole was accurate (from the perspective of a bomber -- sheesh, how long are you, anyway? There isn't a drivable par 4 for me at Willingers) but it did not reflect my primary take on the course: I believe there are more awkward shots at Willingers than any other course in Minnesota. It's not the role of a golf course architect to make the golfer comfortable, but on almost every hole at Willingers, there's a demand that makes me uncomfortable. It's the farthest thing from a "it's all there in front of you" kind of golf course. And it begins with the first shot -- the awkward angle over the water hazard that rewards a long bomb over the farthest point of the water, but anything more prudent -- or farther left -- leaves you a very long approach to the green, or has you chipping back to the fairway from the trees in the left rough.

I could go around the course and describe the various predicaments Garrett Gill's design -- and my bad play -- have put me in at Willingers, but I'll simply end this by saying that if you ever want to swap an invitation to White Bear, Interlachen or Minikahda for a paid-up greens fee to Willingers, give me a call.

I have not played at Willinger's in years and years (and won't, for a reason that has nothing to do with the course's design). But Rick and I played there numerous times 10 to 15 years ago -- and I think I can honestly say that we mostly agree on this analysis.

As I said, I'm going from old memories here, but there are a TON of discomforting shots, I think, where "strategy" will be of almost no help (e.g., from memory: the absurdly constricted 12th fairway; the goofy 13th fairway; the target-target-target par-5 with water left all the way, and maybe elsewhere, too, on the front nine -- I see it's No. 6). It seems to me that Willinger's par-4s and par-5s are almost all about precise execution of difficult shots without much room for error.

Not so No. 11 -- which is the one of the holes I like.

If I'm not mistaken, I thought the par-3s were pretty uniformly good -- difficult, but possible.

Nothing wrong with a sadistic course, but I have less appetite for masochism than I used to.

Give me a course like Rick's Stillwater CC, or Jason Topp's Oak Ridge, or Jeff Shelman's ... well, which course is he playing at nowadays, anyway? (Little joke. Jeff's been a little peripatetic in recent years. He's at Southview now -- I think!)

Give me, for that matter, Keller. Any day. And it's much cheaper than Willilnger's.

I think if I asked Rick which TC course is the second-most-discomforting, he'd say Inver Wood.

I'd say -- of the courses I've played, and many remain unplayed: Inver Wood, or The Meadows at Mystic Lake.

All three by Garrett Gill.

That's his specialty, I guess.
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

Morgan Clawson

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Re: Introduction
« Reply #34 on: March 03, 2011, 04:55:16 PM »
Inver Wood = Train Wreck

Patrick Hodgdon

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Re: Introduction
« Reply #35 on: March 03, 2011, 04:58:35 PM »
Welcome Mark!

I better get that Minnesota GCAers dinner on the calendar pronto so we can spend 2 hours going over your list!

I have to ask, are you on the waiting list at HazNat or something and needed to send this list to boost your application???!?!?!?

I've played the front 9 some 30 odd times at Bent Creek and the back 9 exactly once. Love that they keep the greens fast there even if the routing  feels like being jammed into a phone booth with a sumo wrestler.

Thanks for sharing and happy to have another 'Sota guy here (even if you're a transplant).
Did you know World Woods has the best burger I've ever had in my entire life? I'm planning a trip back just for another one between rounds.

"I would love to be a woman golfer." -JC Jones

Dan Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Introduction
« Reply #36 on: March 03, 2011, 05:09:43 PM »
Inver Wood = Train Wreck

A case could be made!

But, again: The par-3s are pretty good, and I love the straightforward, uphill No. 11.

Maybe Gill should design par-3 courses.

Have you ever played the Executive Course at Inver Wood? It always looked better, to my eye, than the main course.
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

George Pazin

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Re: Introduction
« Reply #37 on: March 03, 2011, 05:14:38 PM »
Welcome.

Hats off to you for posting a list right out of the gate. Gutsy, well done. Don't ever change that.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Morgan Clawson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Introduction
« Reply #38 on: March 03, 2011, 08:47:31 PM »
Dan,

I'm trying to remember #11. But I looked on the web site and it's a par 4.

I agree that the par 3s are the best.  I have not played the short course.

They have a pretty nice range too.

Dan Kelly

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Re: Introduction
« Reply #39 on: March 03, 2011, 09:30:26 PM »
Dan,

I'm trying to remember #11. But I looked on the web site and it's a par 4.


It *is* a par 4. I guess I wrote that in a confusing way.
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

Mark Johnson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Introduction
« Reply #40 on: November 19, 2011, 01:09:38 PM »
Inver Wood = Train Wreck


Morgan,

Actually played Inver Wood for the first time yesterday in presumably my last round of the year (in 40 degrees and 30 mph winds).   You lowered my expectations so far that I was pleasantly surprised.    It definitely doesnt make my top 25 courses in minnesota list, but I wouldnt be averse to playing there again.


A few of my thoughts

- Given the conditions, the course played firm and fast which I think it was definite helped the design.   Probably played as many knock downs yesterday as I had the previous few months.    Not sure the course would have played as well if it was not as hard

- The back is much better than the front, which i didnt really care for.   Three holes I really liked

- 12 (downhill 240 yard par-3 to a relatively small green)
- 14 (subtle dogleg par 5 with some nice cross bunkering
- 18 (risk/reward dual fairway hole with an approach to a well protect green below)

- The course is pretty hard; one of the hardest pure munis in the state

- the 8th is just a train wreck

Zack Molnar

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Introduction
« Reply #41 on: November 19, 2011, 05:15:02 PM »

[/quote]
If they could get more water on that golf course, it would be top 5 on my list no doubt.
[/quote]


Mark,

Welcome to the site. As others have said, bold play to post a list right out of the gate. But its something to be admired. A few outliers on there, but thats the beauty of golf - some many different opinions and styles to be had, and no one is absolutely perfect.

As to the watering quote, be careful with that around here. Underwatering is definitely the cuisine de jour around here.

Again, welcome and I look forward to hearing your golf thoughts!

Pete Blaisdell

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Re: Introduction
« Reply #42 on: November 20, 2011, 09:25:16 AM »
Mark
  Welcome--Have you played up here in New England at all?
' Golf courses are like wives and the prom queen doesn't always make for the best wife "

Tim Bert

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Re: Introduction
« Reply #43 on: November 20, 2011, 01:52:25 PM »
Zack - I don't think I have ever seen anyone on this site advocate underwatering a golf course. Many advocate for less water but I think it is for what they believe to be the appropriate amount of water, not less than the turf needs.

Mark Chaplin

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Re: Introduction
« Reply #44 on: November 21, 2011, 11:32:52 AM »
Mark,

Welcome this maybe useful!!  http://travel.state.gov/passport/

Mark
Cave Nil Vino

Zack Molnar

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Re: Introduction
« Reply #45 on: November 21, 2011, 04:20:20 PM »
My mistake Tim. That was a poor choice of wording. I didnt not intend to say underwatering, as I meant,a s you stated, the correct amount of water to allow firm and fast conditions. Thank you for correcting my poor diction.

Zack