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Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Devil's Thumb GC
« on: December 29, 2001, 05:23:59 PM »
Has anyone played here?
The architect is Rick Phelps and the course is in western Colorado. Any comments?







« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Ran Morrissett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Devil's Thumb GC
« Reply #1 on: December 29, 2001, 05:47:58 PM »
Jim, The architect seems to like to provide a back wall to his greens. Take the 3rd pic from the bottom: how much more intimidating would the approach be if that mound/bunker wasn't there? Plus, visually, why block that view  ???
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

A_Clay_Man

Re: Devil's Thumb GC
« Reply #2 on: December 29, 2001, 06:15:00 PM »
That same pic Ran points out: my first reaction was it look like the calm pacific. I assume this is in the Grand Junction area?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Devil's Thumb GC
« Reply #3 on: December 29, 2001, 06:22:38 PM »
Ran,
I agree with you about that greensite. The shot from the tee would be much better sans mound. It does look like the photo was taken from near ground level at the tee. The mound might not be as pervasive at standing height.
I do like the look of the greensite in 3rd photo from the top. A fairly untimidating shot to a green that many would come up short on, I would think.    
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Devil's Thumb GC
« Reply #4 on: December 29, 2001, 06:28:17 PM »
Adam,
Yes, it's in the town of Delta, about 50mis. SE of Grand Junction. Correct me if I'm wrong but I think the area is called the Western Slope??
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Slag_Bandoon

Re: Devil's Thumb GC
« Reply #5 on: December 29, 2001, 06:36:47 PM »
Jim, Looks terrific. Are these your pictures?  I am a big fan of this area.  If you ever find yourself on a cafe racer with Angelina Jolie locking loins for dear life, you've got to take one of the finest drives in America weaving the Rockies on highway 550 through Ouray, Silverton and Durango.  

  The greenside bunkers seem sorta pulled from "morgue files" for such wild and undulating ground and scenery.  I'd still love to play it and be wrong though.  

  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:12 PM by -1 »

JakaB

Re: Devil's Thumb GC
« Reply #6 on: December 29, 2001, 07:02:07 PM »
I went to the web site for this course and the prime time fee for 18 holes is $30.00.   Even before I knew how affordable this course was to play I thought it looked great.  Now instead of saying anything positive the "exspurts" say the bunker behind the green is a mistake.  Well partner you peeps that want affordable golf played at a fun pace you better have backdrops cause the hacken that see nothing right and point or photograph everything wrong need backdrops to catch your cooned 120 yd nine irons.  This course looks great...is affordable so if you got nothing but problems get another piece of pie and let the real golfing public enjoy it.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Slag_Bandoon

Re: Devil's Thumb GC
« Reply #7 on: December 29, 2001, 07:13:52 PM »
30 Bucks?!!   It's on my list.    JakaB, you have some fine vernacular there.  Good jabs, parries and a great sockdolager.   BTW, love the wasteland in the first and last pictures.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Devil's Thumb GC
« Reply #8 on: December 29, 2001, 07:23:15 PM »
Adam,
I wish they were my photos. Got 'em from their website.
If I were ever locked up with AJ on a cafe racer I'd probably die of something good before my wife had the chance to kil me.  
 
JakaB,
The moderate fees impressed me also. The membership was around $5-600 for the season. Pretty good, even though it's probably a fairly short one.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:12 PM by -1 »
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Ran Morrissett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Devil's Thumb GC
« Reply #9 on: December 30, 2001, 04:51:56 AM »
Barney F, The framing mounds and bunker behind the green(s) cost money to design, build, and especially maintain. If the architect had stayed away from such unnatural features, perhaps the green fee could/would have been even lower.

Conversely, he may have been forced to "sink"/protect the greens just to get grass to grow in what I imagine could be a windy environment.

Still, look at the bottom pic and how clean the green complex looks - I for one am glad that there isn't a mound cluttering up/blocking that view.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

A Clay Man

Re: Devil's Thumb GC
« Reply #10 on: December 30, 2001, 02:14:30 PM »
Jum- Thanx for the info. I didn't know the formal name as western slope but it sounds good tome.
Slag- Your gonna platz... I just moved to the four corners and will be taking the 550 as per your advice. It runs right into Farmington. Lookout Devils thumb, here comes your asshole!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Devil's Thumb GC
« Reply #11 on: December 30, 2001, 05:13:15 PM »
Photo #4 has a mound/bunker blocking part of the great view behind the green.  Although the background scene is that mountain / high desert look instead of the Atlantic Ocean, if you took away the mound/bunker it would look a whole lot like #1 at MidOcean!  Beautiful......I would plan a trip around a chance to play there and some of the other courses in that area.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Devil's Thumb GC
« Reply #12 on: December 30, 2001, 06:34:58 PM »
Photo #4 has a mound/bunker blocking part of the great view behind the green.  Although the background scene is that mountain / high desert look instead of the Atlantic Ocean, if you took away the mound/bunker it would look a whole lot like #1 at MidOcean!  Beautiful......I would plan a trip around a chance to play there and some of the other courses in that area.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Doug Wright

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Devil's Thumb GC
« Reply #13 on: December 31, 2001, 12:21:23 PM »
I spoke with Rick Phelps about this new course a few weeks ago. It's a municipal course that came about primarily because the city of Delta had a water pipe running from a mesa through the property into town, so they had enough water to maintain it. It was a low budget job--around $2-$2.5 million if I recall correctly. Rick didn't move much dirt, and said he liked the land because it created some good options.

I believe the course is eligible for Best New Affordable Public in 2002. Hopefully enough GD raters will get over to the Western Slope to see it. plus it's just down the road from Engh's Redlands Mesa in Grand Junction (GD Best New Affordable Public 2001), so it would make a nice weekend or 2 day trip.

Happy New Year,
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Twitter: @Deneuchre

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Devil's Thumb GC
« Reply #14 on: December 31, 2001, 01:09:05 PM »
Doug,
Have you seen any of his other courses and if so, how do they relate to this one?  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Doug Wright

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Devil's Thumb GC
« Reply #15 on: December 31, 2001, 01:45:06 PM »
Jim,

I've only seen one other course that Rick's done--a new 9 holes at Kennedy Municipal GC in Denver. I've got mixed feelings about it. I like some of the greensites and green contours on this course, but it suffers from limited land. Not a bad routing considering the limitations, except for a really bad final hole. Likely Rick had no choice in getting the course back to the clubhouse. He's done another couple of courses in the area that I've not seen--a new 9 at West Woods in Arvada and a course called Broadlands in Broomfield or Westminster. I don't think they're anything like Devil's Thumb as they're "housing development" courses with far less interesting topography. Rick has a some new courses in the area in various stages of development, which will offer a better idea of his abilities.

Happy New Year,
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Twitter: @Deneuchre

redanman (Guest)

Re: Devil's Thumb GC
« Reply #16 on: January 01, 2002, 07:36:13 AM »
Doug

By no means overlook or underrate The Broadlands in Broomfield.  It is about $25- maybe $30 now and has quite a bit of subtlety.  It is basically Rick's first effort even though it's his Dad's name on it.  I walked it in the wiinter one year before it opened and played it 2 or 3 times.

I think wind erosion may have something to do with those "back walls", Ran.  Those who like wind in their golf mix, Colorado can provide you with plenty!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

redanman (Guest)

Re: Devil's Thumb GC
« Reply #17 on: January 01, 2002, 07:39:05 AM »
The 3rd nine at West Woods was severely limited in what could be done there, even the first 2 nines (Front nine least of all impacted as it was site of "Paradde of Homes" BIG home location).  The Broadlands front also has this distinction.  HTe par 5 3rd is a cool hole with some fine, fine "housing" on the left side out of play.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Doug Wright

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Devil's Thumb GC
« Reply #18 on: January 01, 2002, 07:22:34 PM »
Redanman,

Thanks for the view re Broadlands--I'll check it out when the snow clears. BTW my brothers in law don't consult me when buying houses--one bought on West Woods' original 18 as it opened and the back of his house soon looked like a bad muny green, pockmarked by balls. He had to keep the kids outta the back yard during regular golfing hours for chrissakes.
Then my other brother in law buys a nice big house on Glenmoor. Only one problem--the house is readily bombable by slicers on TWO holes.  :o Yikes!

Happy New Year,
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Twitter: @Deneuchre

Matt_Ward

Re: Devil's Thumb GC
« Reply #19 on: January 01, 2002, 07:38:09 PM »
Gentlemen:

Can anyone describe the nature of the terrain for Devil's Thumb? Is it quite hilly? Pictures #3 and #4 appear to make it look that way.

Are the two nines different in their presentation?

I intend to get out there this summer to see first hand. Any info would be most appreciated. :)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Devil's Thumb GC
« Reply #20 on: January 01, 2002, 07:53:25 PM »
Here are a couple of additional photos from their site. it's located at:   http://www.deltagolf.org/  Never having been there I can't offer any first hand experience but from the photos it looks to have both hillls and flats. Hopefully Doug Wright will know more and fill you in.  


« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Rick Phelps

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Devil's Thumb GC
« Reply #21 on: January 03, 2002, 10:25:33 PM »
First of all, thanks Doug for e-mailing me to wake me up and let me know about the Devil’s Thumb post.  As some of you know, I am a lurker and will post on a few things here and there, but my participation is very sporadic.  As such, I tend to miss entire topics at times.  Thanks for all the nice words about Devil’s Thumb.  Obviously I am proud of what we did for the City of Delta.

A few clarifications and general info:  Devil’s Thumb is in Delta, Colorado, which is, in fact on the “Western Slope”(for those who were asking it is basically anything west of the Continental Divide in Colorado).  Delta is about 40 miles southeast of Grand Junction, on the south flank of the Grand Mesa.  Enough geography!!

In response to some of the specific questions and comments:

Ran:  Regarding your comment about the mound/bunker behind the green, framing mounds, etc.  The photo you referred to (third from the bottom of Jim’s original photos) is a shot of the 17th hole, a par 3, taken from the forward tee, with some zoom to boot.  The other tees are a bit higher and to the left of this view.  The green was built into a natural saddle between two existing mounds so only the bunker is “artificial.”  The bunker was added because there is a significant portion of the green that is wrapped around to the back left, where there is no “back wall” by the way.  So a golfer who is trying to shape a draw into the back corner over the front left bunker and doesn’t execute the shot, will be left in the bunker with a tough downhill sand shot to that hole location.

Jim:  The third photo from the top that you refer to is the 13th hole.  One of my favorites.  It’s a reachable par 4, 320 from the tips straight to the green, with a seventy foot drop from tee to green.  The alternate fairway is way off to the right of your photo and it stays on top of the bluff.  The hole plays about 380 going that direction.  Again, the green was built into the saddle between two existing hills, and you are very correct saying that it is intimidating with zero back-drop and a twenty foot drop-off behind the two tiered green.  There are three ways to play this hole.  One, obviously is to go for the green (requires about a 250 carry to get to the lower fairway).  The second, if the hole is on the front half, is to hit a tee shot 240-260 as close to the edge of the bluff as you dare so you can see your approach.  The third, which most golfers would never think of, is about the only sane way to get it close if the hole is on the higher back shelf.  That is, hit it about 170 off the tee, again as close to the bluff as you can.  This leaves you a great angle into the top shelf from a distance of about 160, but again its downhill about 70 feet so its likely a wedge or 9-iron.  Fun??

Matt:  The terrain is pretty much how it looks.  A good two-thirds of the site sits on a flat, sometimes windy bluff with tremendous distant views of the San Juan Mountains, the West Elk Mountains, the Grand Mesa and the Uncompaghre Plateau.  The other third drops off the bluff into some awesome rolling ground leading into an area of adobe clay hills that look like something you would see on the moon.  I wished at first that we could design the whole course in the “dobies” as they are called, but there is a good reason why they have no vegetation on them, the soil is horrible at best.  Even the soil that we had to work with was no picnic.  We generated enough rock during construction to build a five-foot high “wall”, 2.5 miles long along the property’s west boundary.  Someday, when they have time and money to clean it up and stack it into a real wall, it should add a great "old world" touch to the place.

Anyway, I was able to route the course to take advantage of the topography on both nines.  The front side has holes 3-7 playing in the fun stuff, while the back has 13 and 14 down below.  While these are the holes that lots of folks talk about, I think that three or four of the best holes on the course are on the flats.  

Probably the biggest disappointment for me is the top photo in the second bunch that Jim posted.  This is the 11th hole.  It is a split fairway, with the big bunker in the middle.  The green is wide open if you take the risk of hitting over the bunker to the right side fairway.  Otherwise, the approach has to carry the two bunkers in front of the shallow green.  The problem is that not enough of the right fairway is visible, so the golfers aren’t comfortable taking that risk.  We should have imported about 3-4 more feet of soil and built up the right side so you could see it better, but money was not available.


Once again, thanks for the positive comments, and the negative ones too!!  It’s the only way to learn.   ;D Please feel free to ask anything else and I’ll do my best to explain myself.  Also, please do get out a play this one.  Like Doug mentioned, it’s less than an hour from Grand Junction and Redlands Mesa so you could hit them both in a weekend without a problem.  The weather is really mild in this part of the State.  The site is a high desert (seven inches of moisture per year) and the golf season is practically year-round.  Pretty cold there December through February, but after that it can be wonderful.  Freak snowstorms can happen anywhere in Colorado from October to the end of April though so the fine print would include that disclaimer!

Rick Phelps
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Devil's Thumb GC
« Reply #22 on: January 03, 2002, 11:15:16 PM »
Rick,
I would bet this course was well received, it's in such a marvelous setting. Thanks for telling us more about it.

A couple of questions:

In another discussion on this site I mentioned that I thought that cutting the desert in close around greens could replace the use of bunkers in some cases. If the larger stones were taken out of the soil, do you think this would be viable in a desert-like setting? It could be used in a fairway situation, too. Maitenance would be lowered and players could ground clubs anywhere. In looking at the bottom photo in the first group it looks like you did this to a degree?  

You mention the 11th hole and players not seeing enough of
the right fairway. When I first looked at the photo I did wonder if that was fairway or not. You mention building up the right side of the fairway as a cure. If you were able to lower the right side wall of the bunker and the capes that extend into it, would this make more of that fairway visible?
Would it diminish what you were trying to achieve if you lowered the side of the bunker?  


All in all, this course just struck a major chord in me when I saw the photos. It is exhilarating, to say the least.  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Rick Phelps

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Devil's Thumb GC
« Reply #23 on: January 04, 2002, 08:33:34 AM »
Thanks Jim:

First of all, regarding your questions about the “desert”.  This desert is a bit different from what most are used to seeing in Arizona or California.  Instead of the decomposed granite, which is more of a fine gravel to sand in texture like in Scottsdale, this soil is clay with a ton of rock varying from 2” to 3’ or more.  Yes, we introduced the “desert” in a few places that are more out of play, to save on irrigation more than anything, but not as hazards per se.  As soon as you try to introduce desert like this as a hazard, you cannot irrigate it otherwise it will either grow a bunch of nice weeds or it will be a muddy mess.  As such, you need to use a lot of part-circle irrigation to create a well-defined edge, which immediately drives up the cost of the irrigation system.  This course was built for $2.5 million even with the rock! :D

As for #11:  If we were to lower the right side of the bunker much more than it is now, you would have a hard time seeing the sand from some of the tees.  The first thing that probably needs to be done is to mow down some of the fescue that you can see behind the bunker.  It blocks the view a bit, plus its pretty penal for the guy who barely clears the bunker.  The real problem is that the ground is sloping away from you beyond the bunker, so the only way to really see the fairway is to raise it some.  It may only take two feet, but it would still be a pretty major undertaking, particularly with the rocky soil.  :(

Going back to some of the earlier comments again, the site is so vast and wide open, that the scale of the man-made landforms gets diminished a great deal.  In many places, I thought some of our shaping would have more of a visual impact than it really did.  But, overall, I am very happy with the way it turned out.

Rick
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Devil's Thumb GC
« Reply #24 on: January 04, 2002, 09:32:44 AM »
Rick,
Thanks for the replies.
It definitely looks like you built something grand amongst all that grandeur.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon